my pregnant pitbull

[Horsefeathers!]

[quote name='K']OK I dont want to comment/argue any more either so I give up..I am wrong ....I cant get people to change thier mind once they have it set no matter what I say ...we can never see eye to eye on this...so I am tired. it is late. I capitulate...congatulations you wore me down again....K.

Argue and slag off all you like without me...[/quote]

K, it saddens me that you perceive any of this as a direct attack on you. No one is trying to wear you down, or argue with you. All I can say is that I hate that you feel that way. You are very outspoken and speak out often for what you believe is right. I am saddened that you believe that anyone else who does the same is only trying to pick a fight.

[Malamum]

[b]K wrote...[/b]
[quote]Does anyone here actually know the difference between supervised, structured "temperament test game rolling" and set up dog fighting in a barn in the dark with drugs, drink and gambling on sick gunpowder fed abused pathetic scrapping dogs?......[/quote]

I for one don't and would honestly like to know the difference. I have seen the term "rolling" used by Hmmm quite a few times but to me it always seemed like a euphemism for "fighting".

K, I understand your point in regards to the set up of "temperament test game rolling" but what I don't understand is once the dogs are together in the ring or pit (or whatever you want to call it) what do they do that is different? Isn't fighting fighting - aren't there still two dogs going at each other trying to cause the other one harm?

I have wondered this for a while but not wanting to open a can of worms have never asked - well the can already seems to be open so what the hell :wink:

I really would like to know the physical differences in laymen

[Aonir]

I have a question, and I want either K and/or Hmmm to answer.

has Hmmm FOUGHT in rings at anytime in his/her life?

[Guest Anonymous]

[quote]The way I see it, if you have so much knowledge of bloodlines and genetics etc, why not put it to good use and breed for family pets, with good temperements around not only people, but other dogs? Please don't talk about "ruining your breed" when you are also adding to the degrading of this lovely breed.[/quote]
Adding to the degrading of the breed? I thought what was degrating the breed are the amount of bites they cause on humans? And I can guarantee any one of my dogs would make EXCELLENT family pets.
[quote]If that's the only way you have to test for a trait then its time to stop worrying about that trait because its not worth it, IMHO. [/quote]
Then lets go ahead and eliminate the breed. There is no need to have the American Pit Bull Terrier if the gameness is not in them. Oh, and now you can go ahead and start counting more pit bull bites as well. The EXCELLENT family pet I guaranteed, I can now no longer guarantee. That trait is what makes them stand out from every other breed. A dog that is game is more stable than one that is not.
Not one dog I have ever had nor pups from any of my dogs has ever bitten anyone. Not one has ever ended up in a shelter. Not one has ever killed the family next doors pet. I guess if these kind of dogs are the ones degrading the breed there is no way for them not to be degraded.
I have never said anyone should agree with what I do. I have never tried to push anything on anyone. I never brought any of this to the board. Should I just register under a different name so noone can continue to bring up BS that has already been covered, deeply covered? No, I dont think so. I was asked questions when I first came here and I answered honestly. Maybe I should have lied? So, what most people want here are people who lie, people who have the same opinions as one another and people who come here for advice when they have a pregnant dog that may have pups that add to the shelter population and bite stats.
If any one of you walked onto my yard you would see how well taken care of these dogs are. You will see happy dogs bouncing on the ends of their chains (and no, chaining a dog is not cruel) or jumping on their kennel fences to greet you (known or stranger), you will see huge bowls of home cooked food and bowls of fresh water. Dog toys laying somewhere near each dog. You will see each and every dog gets plenty of exercise and endless attention. You will see that 4 bedrooms are specially made up for a bitch ready to give birth. BUT none of that matters because I breed Game APBTs. What a shame.
I promised a couple of people here I wouldnt talk about this. If someone has a question PM me and the next time I have a chance to get on my computer I will answer.

[Aonir]

You didn't answer MY question. So lets make it more clear...

[size=7]has Hmmm FOUGHT in rings at anytime in his/her life?[/size]

[Aonir]

Well, I am completely against dog fighting. But I appreciate Hmmm being honest in that area. BUT I also want him to reconsider what he's doing, he is 'making' dogs fight... We make them into what they are.. We make them feared because of the fighting. How can one stand letting their dog get bitten and 'abused'?

However, I 'do' say dog fighting is wrong, I do 'not' say that breeding a fighting bitch is wrong, ONLY if the bitch is not human/dog aggressive.
NOTE: Just because a dog has never biten a human, doesn't mean it wont.

I must request this topic be locked.

[Lucky Chaos]

[quote name='Kiwi']I see things a little differently..

Hmmmm although I don't necessarily agree with Dog Fighting :) I always have appreciated you answering questions honestly, when you know full well that the majority of us here at Dogo disagree with what you do.

I can see both sides of the argument, and I haven't made my mind up yet.
I would like to learn a little more before making my mind up, Please feel free to PM me too.

I have a few questions on this, but I am unsure whether it's appropriate posting them on here, when this topic is forbidden :-?[/quote]

I have to agree with Kiwi. I don't agree with fighting either but I have always been a little curious......

I don't think we should lock this topic just yet....Its not out of hand as of now.

[Malamum]

I don't think this topic should be locked yet... it seems that it's all the regular members posting and even if there are conflicting opinons I'm sure we can keep it civil and so far it seems to be.

[Horsefeathers!]

I do think we have been VERY civil in regard to responses in this topic this time compared to the verbal bashing guests get just for being guests and daring to offer an opinion, or wannabe breeders get when they may actually have learned something had someone been civil enough to try. If this topic is locked, I believe we should lock any topic that deals with breeding, diet (as that sometimes becomes contoversial) and several other things if it looks like it might become controversial. I honestly hope we never come to that. I've noticed recently that we are becoming a group of head nodders and amen shouters and people seem to get upset with anything that disrupts the flow of "amens." Say it ain't so! So far, during this thread, we've (collectively) actually been pretty decent... no one has let loose NEAR the barrage I've seen (and probably dealt) in the past. Perhaps getting it out in the open once and for all would be good. Many questions have been asked in the past and many have been asked now in hopes that we learn something we didn't know that would change our minds. Obviously, banning the topic hasn't worked as people are still curious and I think rightly so.

I think my biggest sore spot is the staunch defense Hmmm gets since Hmmm is "just being honest," but a guest on this forum takes a verbal beating for not knowing how important it is to this group to take a sign in name and daring to offer an opinion, or that a person who is cranking out puppies and doesn't know any better (that person was once me) is beat to death with words because "we're just being honest and telling it like it is" rather than at least offer the benefit of doubt and trying to help the unfortunate puppies on the way and try to prevent further litters. I see such double standards. :(

I said last time and I'll say it again... if there's something I'm not understanding, tell me so I WILL understand. I need more than finger pointing and diversion ("other people are doing worse things while MY dogs are well taken care of"). Tell me PLEASE how it is a dog that is game tested is more reliable than any other dog who is not. I just don't get that and I am sincere when I say I would like to know. I can't wrap my brain around the idea of a dog that can hold its own with another dog being a BETTER dog.

I really DO like this forum and no one welcomes diversity in opinions more than I do. No matter what I really think of Hmmm, I think I have been respectful and, though I don't agree with what everyone says, I never want them to be afraid or unable to say it.

[mydogroxy]

[color=red]However, I 'do' say dog fighting is wrong, I do 'not' say that breeding a fighting bitch is wrong, ONLY if the bitch is not human/dog aggressive.
NOTE: Just because a dog has never biten a human, doesn't mean it wont. [/color]


aonir: there is a HUGE difference between human aggression and dog aggression. a pit bull that exhibits human aggression is unstable, whereas most pit bulls will be dog aggressive to some degree or another. breeding a pit that is dog aggressive is not wrong at all.

and just to throw my two cents in on this whole hmmm thing...i do not agree with dog fighting in the least. i think it is a shame that people still find this acceptable. in my opinion gameness not only applies to dog fighting and could very well be tested in other areas (weight pull for example). BUT you'd better believe that i would take one of hmmm's pups over some byb's ANYDAY. gamebred dogs are notoriously stable animals, never exhibiting human aggression and make lovely pets.

[Aroura]

Hmmm, I never once said that you aren't doing a good job at what you are doing, by the sounds of it you are doing a great job, I just don't AGREE with what you are doing, and it breaks my heart to know that people still fight their dogs and that people are still striving to breed dogs that are more vicious and deadlier in the Pit. What is the point? I don't agree with what you said here:

[quote]Then lets go ahead and eliminate the breed. There is no need to have the American Pit Bull Terrier if the gameness is not in them.[/quote]

Now that is an ignorant statement if ever I heard one!!! There are plenty of pet Pits out there in loving homes with no need for gameness, its only cruel individuals that feel the need to chuck their dog in a pit and get mauled to death that desire this gameness, personally I have no desire to own a dog that is dog aggressive, let alone intentionally breed them!
Roxy, I would also choose a pup from Hmmm over a byb any day, but not because I agree with what he is doing fighting wise, only because he picks for temprement to humans. I see good breeding as a package though, and that includes breeding for dog friendliness.

[mydogroxy]

i get what you're saying, but if dog friendliness is a priority for you, then a pit bull is definitely not the dog for you. dog friendliness is not an important trait for pit bulls to have.

[Aroura]

Yes Roxy, thats why I don't intend to get a Pit - I'm having enough problems as it is with my Boxer!!! Yet I still don't see the point in breeding in more aggressiveness, dog or human, into any dog. My only reason for this is that I don't see the need (or even understand the desire) to fight dogs, so why make more aggressive dogs? There is a Pit at my obedience club, he is the friendliest dog there by a long shot, not only to humans but to dogs. His owner has trouble keeping him under control because he just spends the whole morning trying to play with other dogs! He's actually the dog who taught Lily to play again and I am very gratefull for that. It is dogs like him who should be bred from, not the ones who just want to attack the nearest dog, this boy gives the breed a good reputation while still conforming to the standards.

[Malamum]

From what has been discussed before, I believe... gameness isn't desired for them to be a better fighting dog.. gameness is the trait that makes them more stable and therefore better family pets. However the "roll" is the test that is needed to prove the gameness.

I'm not saying I agree with this as I don't really understand it but just wanted to make sure that the points that are being made are being understood.

[Aroura]

K, don't be silly - your a WONDERFUL mod!!! I don't know what we'd do without you most of the time!!! Just because we don't agree 100% with you on this matter, doesn't mean we don't RESPECT what you have to say, if thats what you believe so be it, its just that I don't happen to believe the same thing. Who is right? I don't know, does it really matter if its going to get in the way of a great mod doing an excellent job? I for one realise that Hmmm is very knowledgable and is a valuable member of this forum, I don't agree with what he does, but I must admit he knows his stuff and does a very good job at argueing it! I don't agree with anything to do with fighting and NEVER will, but yet I can still see that Hmmm has a lot of knowledge that would be a benefit to every one for him to share, and as far as that goes I'm 100% with you K, Hmmm has just as much right to be here as the rest of us.
Sorry I missed the last time this topic flared up, I would have said what I have to say then if I was here, but seeing as I wasn't I have to put in my two cents this time :wink:
I know I'm not a mod, but I declare this topic closed. Despite what anyone says about it being a public forum which is open to any discussion, I feel when peoples feelings are getting hurt enough is enough, we should just let this one lie. I would hate to see any of this 'family' falling to bits over a stupid little debate where we should all just step down and agree to disagree.

[Carolk9s]

First, who are any of US to say this topic should be closed?
I still am OPEN to learning, I asked K some questions both on list and privately that have not been answered.
My main issue, the one that started this, is Hmmmm being moralistic towards another who could use educating while he continues to 'temperament test' his dogs by rolling them.
OK, someone please define rolling to me. I too have thought it is simply another word for all out fighting. If I'm wrong, I would LOVE to be educated and corrected. Truly I would.
I am asking Hmmmm to please define this for me and for others. How does rolling differ from allowing the dogs to simply fight?
What are the dangers of rolling to the dogs?
Can a dog get killed during this?
How long does a typical roll last?
Do the dogs become physically engaged?
If so, how long are they allowed to remain as such before being pulled apart?
How old are the dogs when they are rolled for the first time?
If a young dog does not 'pass', are they given a second chance?
Would the same dog be rolled more than once?
Multiple times?
Certainly my perception of dog fighting is shaped by the media, AP being one of them, I am an avid follower of the Animal Cops show. However as HF said, doesn't matter to me if it's done in someones basement with ill treated dogs, money and drugs changing hands, or elsewhere, fighting is fighting.
So if rolling is DIFFERENT from fighting, please please explain it.
I DO try to keep my mind open just a crack so I AM willing to learn and adjust my thinking IF someone can break it down and explain to me what I am misunderstanding.
And K, just because we do not all agree with you or one another, does not necessarily mean that WE are close minded and wrong. I choose to think for myself and question what I believe needs to be questioned.

Oh, I will be away for about a day and a half but I will surely check on this topic when I return. I do hope to see some answers to my questions. I would not consider these answers to be 'talking about dog fighting' as I do not want or need to know of a specific 'roll' or fight, just the facts regarding.
I will also of course check any pm's sent to me while away.

[Gordonmom]

Hi K, Gordonmom here, I don't know if it will log me on as such or as a guest.

Anyway, you are not aloowed to leave the board in a huff, you are the admin, LOL! Only us members are allowed to do so.

Hmmm has changed many minds on barking buddies, mine included. I say let her go (I believe she is a woman) and see if maybe some minds will open on this forum.

[Horsefeathers!]

I've ALWAYS, even from way back when, asked these questions in regard to fighting, rolling, or whatever term it is we are supposed to use. I've asked repeatedly to be shown the better side of "matching"(?), but all I've ever seen is defensiveness ("the BAD PEOPLE are doing far worse things... MY dogs are well taken care of!!!") rather than factual answers. I can't count how many times I've asked with all sincerity to be told EXACTLY what goes on and what is involved. How are these dogs conditioned and does it EVER involve the use of smaller animals (cats, etc.)? If I'm so uneducated, show me the light. I've said all this before. How can people ever learn where this stuff is useful if all we get is a defensive attack? In this particular instance, Hmmm hasn't been attacked at all. I think many of us have asked valid questions with the sincere desire to learn something we perhaps don't already know.

Also, for the record, I've never once asked that Hmmm, or anyone, ever be banned, or not post, and I've always been very anti-post locking or deletion. I'm all for EVERYONE having their say, whether I agree with them or not and this includes Hmmm as well as guests (blatant trolls excluded, see store for details, some assembly required, participating locations only, tax, tag and title not included). I WANT to know what it is I'm not understanding. I said before and I'll say again that my biggest issue at this point was where I read a post of Hmmm's elsewhere and it was stated in a matter-of-fact manner that sometimes losing dogs (killing in "matches") is unavoidable. I just can't quite wrap my brain around that, so educate me. This is Hmmm's big chance to do something good for the reputation of this breed that is clearly stated over and over to be so beloved, so rather than be defensive and stomp off in a huff, get whatever message you're trying to spread out there! The spotlight is on you and MANY people are anxious to learn something. I'm all for keeping an open mind, but not so open my brain falls out. I think one reason this confrontation arises from time to time is because the effort is always made to suppress this topic rather than address it head on, but it's always simmering in the back of some minds. Perhaps now is the time to answer valid questions and shed some light since all we ever get to hear about it is, "you just don't understand!!!" For those who have a problem with it, well, we can make a topic devoted solely to this and those who don't want to be a part of it can choose not to read it. Sounds simple 'nuff to me.

K, girl, you ain't going nowheres, so just knock it off! You'd be stalked to the ends of the earth. I've been planning a vacation to NZ, but it would be just as easy to arrange one to NL. :o

[Gordonmom]

OK, My opinion.

My dogs are hunting dogs. I cannot make them hunt. It is either born in them or not. The term is "birdy". I can make them sit. I can make them stay. I cannot MAKE them hunt a bird.

From what I have learned from Hmmm. Gamebred pits will show an aggression towards other dogs in a pit. She can make them sit, she can make them stay, but she cannot make them be willing to fight to the death for whatever reason.

I don't not have a clue as to why a dog would fight to the death. I truly do not care to. But whether people who own pit-bulls want to believe it or not, this is what they were BRED TO DO.

I do not care to fight any dog, and I do not care to shoot a bird. But I own dogs that are bred to hunt and so to prove their worthiness to be bred to do what they were ment to do, I will hunt them. I am SO tired of people complaining how show dogs no longer carry the characteristics in which they were bred to have, and then complain when they do.

If a sporting dog hunts, it is cruel to birds. If a hound kills a rabbit it is cruel to rabbits, if a terrier kills a rat, it is JUST TOO MEAN!!!

For goodness sake I am a vegetarian, because I choose to be so. But I also allow my dogs to BE DOGS. If they kill a rabbit in the backyard, I do not have a melt-down. THEY ARE DOGS.

I love my dogs more than life itself, and therfore I allow them priveledges I do not afford to humans. Which is, I allow them to be themselves. And if this means wanting to hunt, so be it, even though I would not think of approving a human to hunt. And you know, if I chose to own a Pit, I am just thinking I may allow it the luxury of doing what in it's heart it wants to do, and not what I THINK it should want to do. But I don't own Pits. I own Setters.

Hmmms word "Gameness". My words "Birdy". A Terrier owner "Tenacity"
It is called "old school" bringing a breed back to be what it was ment to be.

[Carolk9s]

sigh...I see there are no answers from Hmmmm to my questions.
How are we, the narrow minded, hung up on a concept, refusing to understand supposed to become enlightened?
I truly thought I would see some answers when I got back, I guess I will have to stick with my beliefs for now as no one cared enough to try and educate me.

[Guest Anonymous]

I have been very busy. There will be times I will be on a several times a week and others only once or twice a week. At the time I am conditioning 3 dogs. Mondays and Tuesdays are their rest days so I will most likely be on through these days and sometimes wed. morning. Sorry for the slow response anyhow.

[quote]How does rolling differ from allowing the dogs to simply fight?[/quote]
Fighting/Matching the dog is a contracted match with a set weight, date, time and location. There is no set time on a match. It ends when either one of the dogs does not scratch or when one of the handlers decides to pick up their dog. Scratch: When one of the two dogs turns (turns his head and shoulders away from the other dog...sign of quitting) or if the two dogs are out of hold for a set amount of time, usually 15-25 seconds (set beforehand by the judge and handlers), the handler of the dog that did not turn can handle his dog any time the two dogs are out of hold. The dogs are then taken to their corners, faced away from each other and given a count (again set beforehand by judge and handlers). They are then turned around to face each other. The judge will tell the handler whos dog turned to release their dog. The dog then has, again a set amount of time, usually 20-25secs to "scratch" to the other dog. If the dog does not scratch the match is over.
A roll usually lasts a few minutes long. I like to take around 5 minutes, depending. This is used to see if the dog has an interest in fighting, to see what ability he may have and to school him.

[quote]What are the dangers of rolling to the dogs? [/quote]
Depends. I have seen dogs roll for 10 minutes and not have a scratch on them. But I had a dog who went in a planned 5 minute roll and it only ended up being about 30 seconds long. The other dog got bit once and the other owner picked his dog up immediately. If he hadnt picked up his dog, he would have lost him.

[quote]Can a dog get killed during this? [/quote]
It can happen.

[quote] How long does a typical roll last? [/quote]
Depends but usually about 5 minutes for the first one. The amount of time for the following rolls just depends on your dog.

[quote]Do the dogs become physically engaged?
If so, how long are they allowed to remain as such before being pulled apart? [/quote]
Yes, they will get a hold on each other. I will usually let mine go for most of the five minutes before breaking them. I will then scrath my dog 2 or 3 times in a row.

[quote] How old are the dogs when they are rolled for the first time? [/quote]
They shouldnt be touch until 18-24 months depending on the dog. I usually wait until they hit two years.

[quote]If a young dog does not 'pass', are they given a second chance? [/quote]
Sometimes. Depends on what happened the first time. I had a little bitch jump out over the pit wall one time. She was a little over two. A couple months later she was acting like she really wanted to fight so I took her back to the pit. She is now a champion.

[quote] Would the same dog be rolled more than once?
Multiple times?[/quote]
They are usually rolled more than one time. Again, it depends on the dog but I would say usually 3-4 rolls before a match is even thought of. There are of course exceptions.

[quote]I've asked repeatedly to be shown the better side of "matching"(?)[/quote]
There is no better side of matching.

[quote]How are these dogs conditioned and does it EVER involve the use of smaller animals (cats, etc.)? [/quote]
My dogs go through a 5 week keep (conditioning period.) I start with a warm up walk, then put them on the treadmill, go through a cool down walk, then feed the dog. I will take 1 day of each week to take them out to the flats. At the flats I let them out of the truck and they will run beside it. My champion bitch mentioned earlier took off after a deer one time. Didnt see her for two days, then she just showed back up at my front door. They get a special diet and will stay in the house through the keep.
NO, small animals are not used, at least not by me or any of the dogmen I know. I do know some probably do but I dont agree with it. It is cruel and it can ruin your dog. There is a mill called a jenny. It has a little "cage" for a cat or a rabbit or something. I have one of these mills but I put a milk carton in it and have never had an animal in it. I rarely use it anyway, I like my slat mill.

[quote]There are plenty of pet Pits out there in loving homes with no need for gameness, its only cruel individuals that feel the need to chuck their dog in a pit and get mauled to death that desire this gameness, personally I have no desire to own a dog that is dog aggressive, let alone intentionally breed them! [/quote]
Come on now... For one, gameness and dog aggression are two COMPLETELY different things. Two, I will never "chuck" my dog into a pit, for any reason. You must not understand, with that statement, what gameness is.


Oh, and there is a HUGE difference between what I do and the byb and "opps" breeders. I will always complain and give my opinion to someone breeding dogs just because they have them and people not responsible enough to make sure that "oops" breeding doesnt happen. I have several dogs, bitches and studs, and have never just thown two together because I have them and have never had an "oops" litter. There is nothing hypocritical about it.

[abker17]

Nice to see u back Hmmm. :) I have followed along in this post since the begining. Thanks for explaining what "rolling" means. Now, I'm having a hard time understanding this, and forgive me if u've anwsered this question, but what is the point of "rolling" a dog? What are u trying to see, or accomplish.

[Guest Anonymous]

Thank you... been working soooo much.
Rolling the dog will show if the dog wants to fight as well as the ability, mouth, and wind of the dog and if the dog shows signs of being game or if he is a curr. It will also show if the dog is worth breeding and/or matching.

[imported_Cassie]

OK, now don't laugh at me BUT.....how in the heck do people get off saying that SOME breeds of dogs are not human aggressive because they are bred to not be human aggressive?????
I have read many many books about aggressive tendancies and the best I have read yet on behavior is written by a couple of biologist who actually STUDY behavior and motor patterns etc of dogs...human aggression is not a normal behavior for ANY dog!!! dogs evolved to be scavengers of humans...they depend on us to survive...human aggression cannot be bred for or against in dogs...it is all to do with socialization and how other people perceive your dog...each time some one steps back or shows fear for certain dogs, this dog can become aggressive toward people; dogs are responsive to the move, and the people react more demonstratively to its movement, and so on...the only genes for human aggression is in the coat color and shape of the dog...

[gooeydog]

[quote name='Cassie']OK, now don't laugh at me BUT.....how in the heck do people get off saying that SOME breeds of dogs are not human aggressive because they are bred to not be human aggressive?????[/quote]
Maybe a better way to explain it is less willing to bite a person.. in some cases, to the point that even when beaten, chopped up by garden tools, and set on fire, they still remain friendly to people (sometimes even those who did the things to them :-? ). It's not so much "not human aggressive", as it is that "normal" pit bulls are submissive to humans (yet not in a fearful way, they're usually still very confident dogs), are high in prey drive but low in defense, and have a huge amount of bite inhibition... they don't just haul off and bite at the drop of a hat, but display a huge degree of control even in highly provocative(sp?) situations. I think too, that in addition to that, through "gameness", many also lack the attitude of self preservation that most animals (including humans) have, displayed by the APBT's willingness to fight to the death against a much greater opponent if it comes to that... it also carries over to "real life" in that they generally aren't so quick to switch over to defensive mode in situations that put them in danger, if that makes sense. It takes much more to push a normal pit bull into biting a person than it does, say, a normal GSD, not necessarily because normal GSDs are unstable, just because they're different, and their drives/temperaments are "set" at different levels for different purposes.