Gordonmom

OK, My opinion. My dogs are hunting dogs. I cannot make them hunt. It is either born in them or not. The term is "birdy". I can make them sit. I can make them stay. I cannot MAKE them hunt a bird. From what I have learned from Hmmm. Gamebred pits will show an aggression towards other dogs in a pit. She can make them sit, she can make them stay, but she cannot make them be willing to fight to the death for whatever reason. I don't not have a clue as to why a dog would fight to the death. I truly do not care to. But whether people who own pit-bulls want to believe it or not, this is what they were BRED TO DO. I do not care to fight any dog, and I do not care to shoot a bird. But I own dogs that are bred to hunt and so to prove their worthiness to be bred to do what they were ment to do, I will hunt them. I am SO tired of people complaining how show dogs no longer carry the characteristics in which they were bred to have, and then complain when they do. If a sporting dog hunts, it is cruel to birds. If a hound kills a rabbit it is cruel to rabbits, if a terrier kills a rat, it is JUST TOO MEAN!!! For goodness sake I am a vegetarian, because I choose to be so. But I also allow my dogs to BE DOGS. If they kill a rabbit in the backyard, I do not have a melt-down. THEY ARE DOGS. I love my dogs more than life itself, and therfore I allow them priveledges I do not afford to humans. Which is, I allow them to be themselves. And if this means wanting to hunt, so be it, even though I would not think of approving a human to hunt. And you know, if I chose to own a Pit, I am just thinking I may allow it the luxury of doing what in it's heart it wants to do, and not what I THINK it should want to do. But I don't own Pits. I own Setters. Hmmms word "Gameness". My words "Birdy". A Terrier owner "Tenacity" It is called "old school" bringing a breed back to be what it was ment to be.

Hi K, Gordonmom here, I don't know if it will log me on as such or as a guest. Anyway, you are not aloowed to leave the board in a huff, you are the admin, LOL! Only us members are allowed to do so. Hmmm has changed many minds on barking buddies, mine included. I say let her go (I believe she is a woman) and see if maybe some minds will open on this forum.

Horsefeathers, I have spent 6 years in college and 25 years working as a microbiologist to know what I know today. If you cannot accept this then I really don't care. Go to school if you want research on bacteria. I also can spot when someone else is trying to BS me, and who thinks they know something about something when they really don't. If you don't know that they don't know what they are talking about they sound pretty impressive. Again, just because you can look something up and post it, does not mean you understand it. I can guarentee that most of what Hobbit prints she does not understand. That print about E.coil O:157 is like taking a passage out of the Bible. Without reading and understanding the whole thing you can interpret the portion that you choose. But I see you don't really care about understanding. There are enzymes in human saliva that start the digestion of food along with the molars in humans. Give a human a hunk of meat, and he will chew it and mix it with the saliva. Give a dog a piece of meat, and he will swallow it whole. If I give my dogs a bowl of dog food they "wolf it down" this food still gets digested. A dog will break down something, like a bone, until it is small enough to pass down his throat. That is why dogs sometimes choke on rawhides. If you want research on this you are going to have to take the time to look it up yourself. Or you can just watch your dog. This board has reduced itself to mockery for some unknown reason, and I certainly no longer care to be a part of it. Think what you may, but if you consider yourselves to be any better than the people on barking buddies you are mistaken.

Horsefeathers, exactly what are you talking about. This is not research. There needs to be no scientific data. Go read a text book. Read the text book that Hobbit wrote. Go look it up on the internet. Take a beginner class in microbiology The fact is, Eschericia coli is not a food born pathogen. It is an opportunistic pathogen. Do you have any idea how much E. coli you drink in apple cider? ALL un-pasteurized apple cider. It just becomes part of your normal stool flora, unless you are young, old, immuno-compromized. Then it probably will just give you a stomach ache. Unless you have no immune system. The fact is, E. coli O:157 IS a food pathogen, and only a food pathogen. It is a toxin producer which makes it so deadly. It is found in raw meat, amonst other things. If E.coli O:157 is found in your apple cider you get very sick and probably die. No matter WHO you are. Entoameoba coli is an amaebae that is also an intestional pathogen, and found in water. It causes diarhea and stomach upset. Personally I have nothing against you Hobbit. But again, just because you have an extensive research library that you can quote from does not mean that you know what you are talking about. Most of what you said about genetics came from quoting from a book. I don't know how much you actually know about genetics. From a breeding stand-point you are a genius and are more well informed that 99.9% of the breeders out there. From a biochemical standpoint I am not so sure. I do know that just because you had eleven dogs that had Salmonella and you have a microbiology reference book does not make you even close to knowledgeable about bacteria, no matter how good a game you talk. I have conceded in an earlier post that I am not a genetist, and I defer to whatever opinion you may have on that subject. But to take me on in microbiology, you better know what you are talking about. And as for eveyone else, believe what you want to believe. As for me, I will continue to go to work every friggen day and do bacterial cultures that come in from doctors and report out patient results with the knowledge that these poor patients would have been better served by being diagnosed from a dog message board.

Hobbit, just because you can read from a book, does not mean you are up to knowledge on everything. You should have read up on E.coli O:157 BEFORE you started telling me about your dogs dying of just plain E. coli. And i assume you ment the bacterial E. coli and not the ameobic E. coli, which can also be found in water. Why don't you now read about that and regurgitate it for the board?

Actually what I said was that I didn't think dogs got E. coli O:157, not that they didn't get E. coli. Two different things, as I am sure you know. There is one of your toxin producers. (E. coli is not). I don't understand your 200ppm/100ml, because ppm I assume stands for parts per million multiplied per 100 ml, that's an awful lot of exceptable bacteria. Do you mean 200 CFU/100ml? Water E.coli around here is registered by parts per billion, not parts per millions, so I guess I am not getting you. Your pups dying of E. coli has nothing to do with dying of a food born illness, which is what people are suggesting with a BARF diet. E. coli is not a food born illness. It is a fecal contamination illness. And it was the age of your pups that caused the illness, not the E.coli, given the fact that the mother did not die. I never once suggested that dogs did not get bacterial diseases. And again, unless you do a culture, there is no way of knowing that the food born illness that your dog has was Salmonella. None. period. And unless you took that wrapping that the piece of meat was in, and cultured that also, you could not prove anything. And unless you can tell me that everytime your dogs have an intestional problem you do a culture to find the exact nature of what is causing the problem, again, I will have to take what you say with a grain of salt, because how can you possibly assume which of many organisms is causing the disease just by looking at symptoms? Again, you guys can believe what you want.

As soon as AOL is no longer free for me, I am out of here. Veterinarians have not microbiology classes. Medical Drs. only have one. they make a guess and people believe them because they have a DR.in front of their name. The only post I personally would take any stock in would be Hobbits puppy story, and those pups did not die from a food born illness but rather from the inability to defend against a naturally accuring organism because of their age. The Salmonella I would have to be sure did not come from some livestock on the farm. If it did, that livestock very well may still be carrying the organism, but the dogs and people have now developed antibodies against that particular strain, and would not get sick from it again. Salmonella should have been killed in the canning process, but since it is a gas producer, the can should have been all bent out of shape, and I wouldn't have used the contents of that can. I thought I was being informative about educating you guys about intestional pathogens, but since you guys know all there is to know about food born illnesses, I will not dare to suggest that you are wrong again, and will refrain from posting again.

AOL has kicked me off 3 times while trying to write this, so I have to type fast. Salmonella is characterized by the amount of hours, 12-24 in humans before signs of distress are shown, and it is usually self-limiting in humans unless they are very young or old or immuno-compromised. Once you get that strain of Salmonella, you will not get it again, as you will develope antibodies. But of course you guys know all this stuff. I find three things amazing. One is that there are at least 10 known intestional pathogens, and all the dogs on this board have only gotten one of them, assuming that Hobbits pups died from fecal E.coli contamination in pups that had not fully had the chance to develope antibodies against a normal indiginous organism. Two, that eveyone has spent the money to have their dogs stool cultured. And three, dog intestional problems are usually caused by toxin producing organisms, as the toxins can survive the stomach acid, but no one has ever had a dog with one of these organisms, which I won't list as I am sure you guys know them already. I just got the call I am going to be bumped off again, so here I go again.

I never knew that just because you owned a dog that got sick that you knew everthing there was to know about the disease process. Your knowledge must be a wonderful thing. I amd sorry for the loss of you puppies Hobbit. E. coli is a naturally accuring organism. Everyones stool is made up of 80% E.coli. Water can contain 80,000 PPB before it is considered to be a possible problem, and then in the normal heathly adult it rarely kills. Are you sure the pups did not get this from a fecal contamination on or in the mothers milk? A young pups immune system is not strong enough to ward off a large onsult of any bacteria. As for the 11 dogs, that must have been a huge package of meat. Salmonella is a bacteria that is normal in a lot of farm animals intestines, showing no illness to the animals. These can include llamas, chickens and cows. Llamas can pass Salmonella like crazy. Also, deer droppings have been shown to have the organism. Salmonella is charaterized by both PROJECTILE vomiting with diahrrhea. I am posting this now because I am about to get kicked off.

I am not an advocate of the BARF diet, but bacteria should not be a decision on whether or not you feed a BARF diet. Dogs are not known for being picky about where they go or what they put in thier mouthes. Yes, my dogs have eaten rabbit poop, horse poop and dead who know what. They sniff the ground and each others butts. The myth about their mouths being cleaner than a humans is just that- a myth. I know. I have cultured my dogs mouths. And you think I would be worried about a piece of meat? Dogs do not chew their food, so digestion starts in their stomachs. They also have a shorter digestive tract than man. Their stomach acid, to compensate for the lack of digestion in the mouth (chewing/saliva), and a short digestive tract is VERY acidic. This kills a lot of bacteria. That meat would have to be completely rotten to have a high enough bacteria count to get past a dogs stomach acid. Then we have the fact of antibodies. As a dog eats all this stuff, they develop antibodies to it. So when they eat it again it does not affect them. I get very tired of people trying to scare other people with bacteria stories. Salmonella very rarely kills anyone. And I don't know if dogs can get E. coli O:157 as people do, but that bacteria is not as common as the news would have you believe. We do not live in a sterile world.

21 days

jcbrooke, can you tell me what the name of the bacteria was that came from meat and ate your dogs stomach? I am unaware of any bacteria other than a Helicobacter that can survive a dogs acidic, mucosal stomach long enough to attach, and Helicobacter does not come from raw meat. Organism that cause food poisoning pass through the stomach and imbed in the intestine, which is a more hopitable enviorment, but then you get the bloody stool stuff. But maybe I am not thinking of something. Can you tell me the bacteria?

My friend does not breed them though she does plann to have a litter some day with Coal if she can find a sutable female. All the females she aquires seem to have something wrong with them, so you must be very careful. Her method now is just going to the dogs for sale in the newspaper, and checking out their lines. She went to reputable breeders, and did her reseach and the whole works and still had dogs with major health prolbems. So now, she finds black GSD's in the paper. Gets the names of the parents. Looks the parents up on OFA.com to see what their OFA is, and to make sure they were OFA'd. She meets the parents (she will only get a dog if she can meet BOTH parents). She asks the breeder what health problem are in the line. And she goes for German or Czech lines. I am sure that if you take your time and don't rush into anything, you will find a reasonabley priced sound black GSD. Thanks Hobbit. I take my dogs running in the field and woods behind my yard to tire them out, so they basically leave my flowers alone. Also, my flowers are in islands around my yard, so they just make a little path around them. The only time they get in the flowers is if Mr. Rabbit is in there eating them. In my yard I take the view that it is survival of the fittest. As for the grass, I figure, the more they kill, the less I have to mow, but I think this "I don't care" additude just makes my grass grow more! LOL

My goodness you scared me!! Yep, there will be stitches, but I guarantee she is taking this better than you!!

I have friends a friend that has only ever had black German Shepherds, and she has never paid more than $300 for them and does not seem to have a hard time finding them. However, she has had some strange dogs. I am planning on getting a German Shepherd also, and from what I have seen in my dog classes, I am going to go for German or Czechoslovakian llines. Here is a picture of my girls with their best friend Coal, one of my friend's dogs. He is Czech. [img]http://image1ex.villagephotos.com/extern/826044.jpg[/img]

You know, I never thought about that. The BSE is spread to cattle from other cattle being chopped up in their food. I wonder how the deer ARE getting it? That IS very scarey.

Roo and Horsefeathers, you are correct. :D I am new to this computer thing :lol:

Kennel cough is an upper respiratory infection in dogs. It is most commonly caused by the bacteria Bordetella broncheseptica or canine adenoviruses or parainfluenzae viruses. It is characterized by a dry hacking cough. This cough sort of sound like your dog is choking on a chicken bone. Your dog can get immunized for Bordetella, but kennel cough can be caused by so many types of viruses, that he can still get kennel cough. Since kennel cough is usually caused by a virus, antibiotics are useless in treating it. It usually is self-limiting, and lasts about a week. A veterinarian will put a dog on antibiotics to prevent what is called a secondary infection, which means that the virus will cause damage to the lining of the bronchia, and bacterial will invade and colonize and cause disease. So the antibiotics are for this second, bacterial infection. Kennel cough sounds worse than it actually is, and I have never heard of a dog dying from it, unless the dog does get a secondary infection, and it is left untreated.

PS-- it has never been shown that brain tumors can be inherited, so you can't breed out brain tumor genes.

Someday I will add "Computer literate" to my credentials, but until that time, I will just not use that little quote box, and plug along. I do believe in genetics. :lol: I do not agree with the term EVERYTHING. So if you have two even tempered dogs, whose parents were even tempered, whose parents were even tempered, the pups will more than likely be even tempered. However, if you feed the mother rat poison (this is an extreme example), those puppies might be born a little "off". The temperment of those puppies, who otherwise by their genetic would have been fine, can now be a little "off". Technically this has nothing to do with the puppies genetic make up. The puppies genetic makeup was the half helix DNA it got from it's mother, and the half helix it got from it's father. From zygote on, it is an outside factor that is determining the structure of the being, not it's genetic make-up. This whole conversation is simpley a mattter of splitting hairs. Yes, your genes, whether they have been blasted or not determine what you are. But I do not believe that what you get from your mother and what you get from your father (ie your genetic make-up) is absolute. There can be other variables introduced . Jacsmom, if you have two even tempered dogs, you do not have a aggressive gene to breed out. If you have two even tempered dogs that are aggressive because they have brain tumors, you still don't have an aggressive gene to breed out, but you might have a brain tumor gene to breed out. :D I think I am going to stick to my new found excitment of posting puppy pictures.

I have a double Major in Microbiology and Biochemistry, and have worked as both an industrial microbiologist and clinical microbiologist for 25 years. But no, I am not a genetisist. Maybe new things have happened that I am not aware of just recently. I have read studies which have compared maternal twins that were separated at birth. I also keep up with other studies that compare nature with nurture. I am also fascinated with socio-pathic individuals, and what can cause them to be this way. Also, when looking at prison inmates that contain the extra X chromosome, even though both of their parents are normal is fascinating stuff. How did that extra X get there? But this is just a hobby, and I explore this stuff just for fun. So the only real genetics stuff I learned while getting that biochemistry degree. Affected receptors are not a mutation, as they cannot be passed on to their progeny. If to believe that genetics controls everything, that is fine. However, I do not. :D I have learned through the years that there are no absolutes in anything. :lol:

Is it possible for a wesite to get your e-mail address? After I logged on to this site, I did get two e-mails from what I assume to be porn site, one was @naked ladies and another was some other thing. I didn't open them, but I thought that all of a sudden I would get something suggestive like that. Can that happen if we log onto a website???

How about murder mysteries? These aren't scarey. Susan Conant books, series of girl and her Malamutes that solve murders. Lauren Berenson books, single mother with son and Poodles solve dog show and kennel club murders. Dean Koontz -- "Watchers" Genetically altered Golden Retriever on the run. Not scarey, but suspenseful Iris Johansen "The Search" Search and rescue woman with Golden Retriever , GR winds up falling in love! James Herriot's dog stories

For goodness sake I just came back from cyber Hell. Thank-you K for helping. I cannot agree with the statement that everything is dictated by genetics. While this may be true when dealing with single celled organisms, when you get to the more complex forms of life, basically this statement is true, but basically this is untrue. Every living thing starts out as a single cell. As this cell divides, certain cell regulators start kicking in that start defining cells as to what they will be. Example: Your liver cell DNA make up is the same as your fingernail cell make up, but your cell regulators have turned off everything but "liver" or "fingernail" so that only that part of the cell is expressed. Now, if as that cell is dividing, proper nutrition is not recieved or the cell is irradiated or not enough oxygen is recieved, those regulator cells can get "mixed up" and something goes wrong. So you can have great genes, but still produce something that is a little "off" if something happened to your brain cell regulators. Another thing is the mother being exposed to viruses or chemicals that can cross the placental membrane to effect those regulators. Now add to that, oxygen deprivation at birth (Cerebral Paulsy) or being dropped or anything else that can damage the brain or fragile growing organs, and you add another variable. Or something like a brain tumor, that could be not growing just sitting there "Tweeking" things. Then add to that poor guidance and training and you can create a monster or who knows what. Starting out with great genetics is a plus, but genetics in the terms of putting two great dogs together is far more complicated. not to say that it is impossible to breed wacked out dogs or people. But it is far from simply saying that genetics dictates everything.[/quote]

Dang, Deep! Even if your advice doesn't help anyone, they can never say you didn't try! You impressed the heck out of me!