__crazy_canine__ Posted October 11, 2004 Share Posted October 11, 2004 Ok so I was thinking the other day and there are a lot of breeds I get confused about when it comes to natural ears and tails vs. cropped and docked. Understand what Im saying at all? Like chows they dont have their ears cropped because they naturally stand straight up. And some breeds naturally have short tails so dont have them docked. So my question is kinda along the lines of what breeds have natural stand-up ears and/or short tails instead of cropped and docked. SOme dogs Im so used to seeing cropped/docked I forget if its natural. Like one breed I wonder about is the GSD. I have seen them with cone-ears... but I always thought they had natural ears? And Aussies, are their tails docked or naturally short? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
__crazy_canine__ Posted October 11, 2004 Author Share Posted October 11, 2004 Hmmm, maybe that GSD did have to have surgery or soemthing, who knows... Yeah the other ones I kinda knew already but wait, pitties get their tails done? Not short do they? If so, Ive never seen one like that. Most sporting/hunting dogs have their tails docked halfway, dont they? Like the Weimeraner (sp?) you mentioned. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ESSlover Posted October 11, 2004 Share Posted October 11, 2004 I know that Springers and Pointers have cropped tails (like 2-3 inches left) and Aussies have their tail cropped (i think) and their ears are "docked" down. They like tape them down or somthing to make them stay "floppy". Thats about all im sure (ok so sorta sure) about :lol: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
imported_Matty Posted October 11, 2004 Share Posted October 11, 2004 Aussies have docked tails or some people leave them naturally bobbed. As for GSD, they "should" always have prick ears, but, I have seen quite a few which had ears that never stood up. Thats the chance you take. I have seen breeders put popsicle sticks in the ears of their show pups to help them stand up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Mutts4Me Posted October 11, 2004 Share Posted October 11, 2004 [quote]And Aussies, are their tails docked or naturally short?[/quote] Both. Some are born with a "natural bob," and others are born with full tails. Most times, if it's a full tail, it's docked. The breed standard is a short tail. I believe the same can be said for the ACD/Heeler - naturally bobbed or docked. Many breeds with large, tall ears like the GSD or Chihuahua have potential to [i]not[/i] have stand-up ears. Either one or both may flop a bit, so sometimes people will tape up their dog's "lazy" ears. I believe this can sometimes happen with cropped ears, as well. [quote] Like chows they dont have their ears cropped because they naturally stand straight up[/quote] lol, I'd never really thought of chows' ears as "standing straight up." They're so short they kind of just blend into the mane. I've never really looked at a pure chow's ears before... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Mutts4Me Posted October 11, 2004 Share Posted October 11, 2004 Oh, Matty answered the whole GSD thing while I was replying. Also, Pit Bulls should not have their tails docked; it is against the standard, but I do know that some people do it... for whatever reason. Some people also dock and crop American Bulldogs, even though the standards I've read prefer natural. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Anonymous Posted October 11, 2004 Share Posted October 11, 2004 No matter what the reason (excuse) for cropping and docking...it's all cruel and stupid! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
courtnek Posted October 11, 2004 Share Posted October 11, 2004 my two dogs have floppy ears....Lab Mix and Foxhound. sometims I want to crop the hounds ears, to prevent any more ear infections.... :o :o :o :o :o Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TDG Posted October 11, 2004 Share Posted October 11, 2004 look up some european breed sites for whatever breeds you are interested in. both docking and cropping has been stopped there since the early 2000s. here are some pics of traditionally cropped/docked breeds and their new, natural looks: [url]http://www.ypsohem.freeservers.com/fotoalbumindex1.htm[/url] [url]http://www.dobermann.com/pruefungen_04/dm2004_bilder.htm[/url] [url]http://www.dobis.net/neu/deutsch/hund_monat/abbey/abbey.htm[/url] [url]http://www.familie-bumba.de/html/body_galerie_1.html[/url] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gooeydog Posted October 11, 2004 Share Posted October 11, 2004 natural stand up ears- GSDs (and the other similar shepherd breeds), Chows, Akitas, some APBTs and AmStaffs (Staffordshire Bull Terriers are not supposed to be cropped), Heelers, Chis, Pharoah and Ibizan hounds, Malamutes, Huskies, Basenjis, Scotties, Corgis, Bull Terriers, Yorkies, Poms, Westies, Boston Terriers (can be cropped as well), French Bulldogs. cropped ears- Schnauzers, some APBTs and AmStaffs, Dobies, min pins (actually there are some with natural standing ears as well), some mastiff breeds, Danes, Boxers. You can usually tell pretty easily if a dogs ears are cropped, because it's pretty common for the cut edge to stay relatively hairless. Dunno about tails... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AllAmericanPUP Posted October 11, 2004 Share Posted October 11, 2004 GSD's have naturally standing ears, only an idiot would crop a GSD's ears. As puppies they will be floppy, but the eventually stand up. I have only seen a few GSD's whos ears never stood up.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Papillons Posted October 11, 2004 Share Posted October 11, 2004 [quote name='gooeydog']natural stand up ears- GSDs (and the other similar shepherd breeds), Chows, Akitas, some APBTs and AmStaffs (Staffordshire Bull Terriers are not supposed to be cropped), Heelers, Chis, Pharoah and Ibizan hounds, Malamutes, Huskies, Basenjis, Scotties, Corgis, Bull Terriers, Yorkies, Poms, Westies, Boston Terriers (can be cropped as well), French Bulldogs. [/quote] Don't forget Papillons! ;) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seijun Posted October 11, 2004 Share Posted October 11, 2004 [quote name='Blitzkrieg Bop SBT']No matter what the reason (excuse) for cropping and docking...it's all cruel and stupid![/quote] Umm.. What if it is to PROTECT the dog against further injury? I have the privilage of sharing my life with three beautiful bird dogs, two of whom have their tails docked. This is to protect their tails from injury when they are hunting in tall grass or other cover. A torn or scratched tail can be painful and difficult to treat, that is why our dogs' tails are docked. ~Seij Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bk_blue Posted October 11, 2004 Share Posted October 11, 2004 [quote name='Mutts4Me']I believe the same can be said for the ACD/Heeler - naturally bobbed or docked.[/quote] The heeler has, or should have, a full tail- it acts as a rudder while they do the tight turns required in their work as cattle dogs. However I have heard that those with no knowledge of the breed do dock the tails in the belief that it aids in their work, ie so it doesn't get stamped on by a cow, etc. As I have pointed out this is misguided, as the dogs need their talis in order to work. The closely related breed with naturally bobbed tails are a separate breed, they're called the Stumpy-Tail Cattle Dog. This harks back to the days in Britain when a farmer was exempt from paying taxes on his working dogs if their tails were docked (don't ask me why!). This was abandoned in 1796 but of course docking continued and now the dogs are naturally born with a bobbed tail. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StarFox Posted October 11, 2004 Share Posted October 11, 2004 [quote name='Blitzkrieg Bop SBT']No matter what the reason (excuse) for cropping and docking...it's all cruel and stupid![/quote] While I do agree that cropping and docking is cruel there are some breeds that need to have there tails docked because of medical reasons. For example Boxers with tails have a high probability of the tails splitting or breaking if they hit it against something. So in there case I think that it would be better for them in the long run to have there tails docked. To be honest I like the look of Danes when they are cropped...I would never have it done but I'd adopt one that had it's ears cropped. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Anonymous Posted October 11, 2004 Share Posted October 11, 2004 So Seijun are you a frequent bird hunter? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mouseatthebusstop Posted October 11, 2004 Share Posted October 11, 2004 [quote]No matter what the reason (excuse) for cropping and docking...it's all cruel and stupid![/quote] I agree I live in the UK where docking is frowned upon -I do not see the vets waiting room full of dogs with injured tails waiting to see the vet If an injury happens see to it. Like any other mishap that can happen I strongly belive dogs should be left as nature intended Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
imported_Kat Posted October 11, 2004 Share Posted October 11, 2004 The UK has boycotted cropping of ears always and a dog with cropped ears will not do good in the show ring against a dog with uncropped ears. I think its pointless totally cropping ears and see it very very much as a cosmetic thing that especially American people have just got to see as common practice. Tail docking I also disagree with strongly unless there is a valid reason and that dog is a working animal where it may be put into jeopardy and hindered by a full length tail. We have a boxer in one of the agility classes here and she has a lovely long tail that she wags non-stop. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ObedienceGrrl Posted October 11, 2004 Share Posted October 11, 2004 [quote name='AllAmericanPUP'] I have only seen a few GSD's whos ears never stood up..[/quote] I am lucky enough to have one! :D My Hunter has a lazy ear. Just one. It's his personality! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Horsefeathers! Posted October 11, 2004 Share Posted October 11, 2004 I always think it's kind of funny when people say they dock tails to prevent injuries whether they've had a problem or not. It's kind of like saying you should decapitate them to prevent head injuries. I work in a vet clinic, and like mouse pointed out, we just don't have folks lining up to have their dogs seen about because of tail injuries... certainly no more so on traditionally docked dogs than other breeds like one Shih who did eventually have part of his tail amputated because it was slammed in a car door twice. Docking his tail would have prevented that injury, right? I guess my point is that it's a weak argument. If people like the look, I'd rather hear them say they like the look rather than using the excuse that it's for injury prevention. If that's the case, we should be docking ALL dogs' tails since any of them can get hurt. I admit upfront that I like the look of some cropped/docked breeds, but I'd never have the fortitude to have it to to them, myself. If they don't come to me already done, I won't be doing it simply for the fact that it IS for asthetics and I have no need to put any of my dogs through it. I would like to see the American breed standards change to accept natural dogs so that at least people can see them in the big shows and get accustomed to that "new" look. A friend of mine recently had her Dane puppy cropped. I LOVED his ears when they flopped over, but her husband wanted him to look like a "real" Dane. I think he looks hideously deformed now, but that's because I was so used to his big, floppy ears. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seijun Posted October 11, 2004 Share Posted October 11, 2004 [quote]So Seijun are you a frequent bird hunter?[/quote] Not frequent, but I do bird hunt. The dogs love it. [quote]I always think it's kind of funny when people say they dock tails to prevent injuries whether they've had a problem or not. It's kind of like saying you should decapitate them to prevent head injuries. I work in a vet clinic, and like mouse pointed out, we just don't have folks lining up to have their dogs seen about because of tail injuries... certainly no more so on traditionally docked dogs than other breeds like one Shih who did eventually have part of his tail amputated because it was slammed in a car door twice. Docking his tail would have prevented that injury, right? I guess my point is that it's a weak argument. If people like the look, I'd rather hear them say they like the look rather than using the excuse that it's for injury prevention. If that's the case, we should be docking ALL dogs' tails since any of them can get hurt. [/quote] Anyone who hunts with a bird dogs knows how [b]high[/b] their risk of injury is. Briars, barbed fences, etc can all injure a dog that is running at top speed through them. In a home setting there is of course the slight risk of injury to a tail, but it isn't NEAR as high as a dog in the field. A working bird dog is almost [b]guaranteed[/b] to suffer injury at some point while working. Tail and ear injuries are the most frequent. My dogs have nearly bled to death before because of simple ear cuts or a small cut on the chest from a fence! By docking the tail we prevent them from suffering later in life. An adult dog with a cut tail can suffer for days upon days. A cut tail is very hard to fix. Docking on a working dog isn't to protect from the same "might happens" that occur at home, it is to protect from the "almost sure to happens" on the field. Wouldn't you dock a dog's tail if you knew that it was almost sure to suffer a painful and long lasting tail injury while doing field work? Again, these injuries aren't things that [i]might[/i] happen, these injuries are things that a hunter [i]expects[/i] will happen. It isn't the same thing as the once in a lifetime injury that MIGHT occur on a "pet" dog at home. ~Seij Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Horsefeathers! Posted October 11, 2004 Share Posted October 11, 2004 I'm pretty sure I was generally addressing the issue of docking for asthetics. Still, our clinic handles a lot of different plantations' hunting dogs and we very seldom ever see the injured tails that others are apparently seeing elsewhere since it's almost a "certainty." Maybe dogs in this area are just lucky. In fact, we've seen far more ear hematomas than anything else in these plantation dogs, but I don't see a rush to cut off the ears of these dogs. Again, for clarification, my post was meant in a [u]general[/u] sense and addressed docking for asthetic purposes... because it looks "good." I know that many people who dock their dogs have hunting/working breeds that don't actually hunt or perform any function at all other than companion. They just like the way it looks, but I very often still hear that lame excuse of what [u]could[/u] happen if they didn't do it. To each's own. I just wish more people had the balls to just say they like the way it looks than go about the whole long drawn out excuse of what [u]might[/u] happen otherwise... especially in companion dogs. Something else I don't understand is how it is that other countries are successfully working their dogs with tails, ears and all while we must "protect" our dogs by cutting off their tails and ears. I wonder who has the overall greater welfare of their dogs at heart. Hey, I'm just throwing out food for thought. I'm not as militant about it as a lot of people. I just know I wouldn't do it to my own. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Mutts4Me Posted October 11, 2004 Share Posted October 11, 2004 [quote name='bk_blue']The heeler has, or should have, a full tail- it acts as a rudder while they do the tight turns required in their work as cattle dogs. [/quote] Thanks for the clarification! Around here, most ACDs have short tails. I don't think I've seen one with a full tail before. I did look at pictures when I read your post, and I think they look lovely with tails (of course, I'm very much against cropping and docking anyway)! I thought they were sometimes born without tails because I'd read that when the ACD was imported into the US, they got some stumpy-tailed cattle dogs mixed in, and the Americans didn't realize they were different, so they interbred them, getting mixed litters. That may not be true, or perhaps that's been bred out of them, I don't know. My former boss at the refuge has an ACD with a short tail. I think she actually was trampled by a horse though... she lived on a horse farm and had a bad habit of chasing them. Poor Annie - no tail and one lung (I don't know why) - but she sure is a sweety! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
imported_Debbie Posted October 11, 2004 Share Posted October 11, 2004 I don't advocate cropping/docking. :wink: I have 2 Jack Russells and 1 has a natural tail and the other a docked tail. It's up to the discretion of the breeder I do believe. I also have a Lab/Rott Gretchen and her tail should be registered as a deadly weapon !!! :lol: *gigishiba ~ her ears are always infected too.......she's on special food, has had antibiotics and cultures done........Vet said Labs are prone to allergies and ear infections. :( Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AllAmericanPUP Posted October 11, 2004 Share Posted October 11, 2004 [quote name='ObedienceGrrl'][quote name='AllAmericanPUP'] I have only seen a few GSD's whos ears never stood up..[/quote] I am lucky enough to have one! :D My Hunter has a lazy ear. Just one. It's his personality![/quote] he's very cute too!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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