courtnek Posted July 17, 2004 Share Posted July 17, 2004 X, I believe you have made the right choice. You have a "bitch wars" situation going on. Two females, neither of which will back down. It is actually more common than you might think. I cant tell you how many stories I have heard/read of males who can work it out, one will eventually take the back seat to the other, but females who will NOT budge. especially if they are similar in age and size. it happens in packs too. I guess the old expression "women have to work twice as hard as men for the same position" applies here as well.....I am sorry about Patti, and their inability to work it out. I have two females, but Laurel's basically a wimp, and still, even so, has snapped all over Free when she has overstepped her bounds. Free wont allow anyone but me to be dominant (and Kyle) and she would take on males as well. beat Alex into submission, and he outweighed her by 20 lbs.....it's sometimes funny to see little Laurel, so quiet and unassumingjust lose it and snap on her. They both respond when I stop them, but I wont allow Kyle to intervene, just for safeties sake. and he's 17. you'd just have to know Free. she's so FULL of herself that sometimes she needs a little "taking down". of course, their wars are all posturing and position seeking. I think in the long run, Patti maye happier as an only dog, especially since she's jealous of any attention you give the others. I am sorry this had to happen, but your son does come first, as you know. as mine would, if necessary. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cairn6 Posted July 19, 2004 Share Posted July 19, 2004 I have found with a multiple dog household that making darn sure that they know who is the Alpha dog is the only way to keep complete peace. the Alpha dog would be you. If your the leader they all have to step in line. I have 2 males and 2 females and in the past when there is a problem they know how I feel about it and there will be no fighting. Especially the dominant breeds you have to make sure they know they are not above you and you are allowed to pet whomever you want whenever you want. This is done by making them work for everything, food, toys, and even affection. I must admit I do worry a little that you are keeping a dog that has bitten your son even if by accident when you weren't there to correct her. Did I read it wrong you did say both dogs bit your son? Dogs don't think oh I just bit and it was an accident and I am not supposed to do that. What they think is oh that's interesting I was just allowed to bite. Watch your son for a bit and don't leave him alone with the dog that bite him just be sure she won't decide it's alright to bite him since she already got away with it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
courtnek Posted July 19, 2004 Share Posted July 19, 2004 the bite in question was an accidental head butting, not by the dog in question. Kids lip came in contact with dogs mouth, accidently during play. the dog in question was immediately sorry, and knew he had accidently overstepped his bounds. this was a situation where child tried to break up a dogfight. between two females who both want to lead. Thats why the decison has been made that the aggressor has to go. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cairn6 Posted July 19, 2004 Share Posted July 19, 2004 I just reread the first post and it says that both dogs bit her son on each arm that's what I was talking about not the accident from before. I'm not judging the situation you know your dogs more then the rest of us do. I am just stating I am concerned but I know you wouldn't do anything to put your son in danger so whatever you decide. I have a dog that bit me once because I got in the middle of a fight between him and another dog and I am a grown adult. I was stupid your son is just being a child. I didn't get rid of him but I did scold him for it to make sure he knew that was not right. Even if it's a mistake I still scold them simply because they need to understand that teeth on human skin is not a good thing no matter what only because they don't speak english and there is no way to let them know you know it was a mistake. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xavierandrea Posted July 19, 2004 Author Share Posted July 19, 2004 The girls have 2 years between them. Patti is 5 and Free will be 3 in Oct. Xavier told me that Patti and Free both bit him. Patti's bite is atleast 7 teeth and Free's was 1. Neither are acceptable(sp)! I was there to correct both of them. As a matter of fact once they saw that Xavier was bleeding and heard him yell they immediately stopped and scattered away. Asim at that time went to each girl and growled at them then walked back over to Xavier and started licking him as if to tell him he would be alright. I corrected both of them immediatley. Free is the closest to Xavier. She sleeps with him every night, she lets him dress her up and even stands in front of him when I'm talking to him. I'm currently waking up at night thinking about this whole thing. I can't sleep. I feel awful. I can't stop thinking about Patti being alone in a cold cell at the shelter! Currently I have Patti on the front porch which is closed up, but I know I can't keep her there forever. I also know for the safety of my children I can not keep her. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xavierandrea Posted July 19, 2004 Author Share Posted July 19, 2004 :oops: :oops: I went on the NERR website and I started crying, but today Ro says I need to call the animal shelter and get things in order or he will. I have more of a bond with the animals than him. Don't get me wrong he loves the dogs but he was raised a dog is a dog. ( I really don't want to do it!!! Am I a bad owner??? I fell like scum!! Oh look at me I can't handle my dogs!! :cry: :cry: I am so ashamed!) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bk_blue Posted July 19, 2004 Share Posted July 19, 2004 You are NOT a bad owner! It would take some sort of dog nazi to get your two females to accept each other, and even then it'd be touch and go. It's not a shameful thing to admit one of your dogs can't live with you. What is shameful is if you allow it to continue and someone gets seriously hurt, be it dogs or people. You're a GOOD dog owner and this is why you're doing what you're doing. :angel: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StarFox Posted July 19, 2004 Share Posted July 19, 2004 Oh pish posh! Your not a horrible owner, far from it! What your doing is being responsible, and your doing what is right under the circumstances. Some dogs just DON'T get along no matter how well you train them, or keep them apart. It's in no way a reflection of your abilities as a dog owner. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
__crazy_canine__ Posted July 19, 2004 Share Posted July 19, 2004 You know, my friend (another volunteer) has three dogs and keeps them seperate EVERY day. Theyre all boys but two of them have dominance issues. She keeps one of them outside and in another room while the other two get free roam of the house. Then she switches it out and the two go outside and in another room while the dominant one gets free roam and time with mom. Is there any way you could do that? I mean, Pattis a good dog accept when shes with the other female, right? Just trying to help with some possible solutions other than a new home. And no youre not a bad owner at all! I know you feel bad but like everyones said youre doing it for the sake of your family. Youre a great mom, xavierandrea!!!!!! :D :D :D :angel: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xavierandrea Posted July 19, 2004 Author Share Posted July 19, 2004 crazy canine> I am sort of doing that now. Patti has free roam of the inclosed front porch. We have a couch and a crate out there for her. We have a fan in the summer and heat in the winter. I thought that wasn't fair. I want to keep her and rotate between the girls the porch. Is that possible. She is 5 years old I'm afraid that she'll spend the rest of her life in the shelter because of her breed and age. Oh, 1 more thing I mention they a long long time ago when I joined a year back, Free is spayed and Patti is not. I wanted to have her spayed after we did Free but Free had some complications and was very sick. That made me change my mind. I wish I didn't change it now. I want to go ahead and spay Patti because I know that will help with aggression. Should I wait a little until after the spay to see how she is acting or is that useless. Or am I just tryikng to find excuses to keep her???? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
__crazy_canine__ Posted July 19, 2004 Share Posted July 19, 2004 Oh wow that makes a big difference! I wish I wouldve known that before. Uh, you know I would give it a try. You love her so I think its worth a chance. Just I would try not having them together in the house, maybe on leash in the yard just so its safer for the dogs and you and your family. So wait and see how she does after surgery and then try it. Again I would re-introduce them on leash, outside. Good luck with that if thats what you decide to do! I too think its a little unfair to have dogs seperate but then I saw how my friend switches them all the time so they all spend time with the family. I think thats better than having to find a new home for one of the dogs. IMO I think its fair to do it that way because youre dog still has you and knows you love them. It may seem kind of mean but youre dog would do anything for you as long as it knows youre there for them! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
imported_Cassie Posted July 19, 2004 Share Posted July 19, 2004 [quote]I want to keep her and rotate between the girls the porch. Is that possible[/quote] xavierandrea, the first thing you have to ask your self..is it worth it? especially bearing in mind that a mistake can happen very easily. You have a child, whose to say that being a child your son may decide some day that he wants his sisters to make up. Do you want to be on edge all of the time thinking of the what ifs? what if the time spent apart esculates the aggression between the bitches, what if one of the bitches gets out and they get in another fight...what if my son happens to get in the middle of the fight??? what if, what if... If you contact a Rottweiler rescue they will be able to deal with this situation and find a "good" home for Pattie. Keep in mind as well that people who get into breed rescue have a great love for their breed and are doing rescue as a love for their breed. You wouldn't have to worry about Pattie being in a cold lonely cell...the people with the rescue would ensure Pattie was well looked after and pampered. There are lots of people who would like to have an older dog rather than start out with a puppy...like me for instance, I have 6 dogs all adopted as adults. Sorry, I don't have room for Pattie :lol: :wink: As for spaying solving dominance issues. Spaying may stop the hormonal ups and downs every 6 months...but, its not going to stop any dominance issues or make your 2 females like each other. To tell the truth when my bitch comes into heat my 2 spayed females (Rottie & Newf) like her alot more than usual :lol: I also do not have any problems with dominance issues or bitch wars due to the breeds I own. Newfoundland dogs are specifically bred to be non dog aggressive and they are probably the least likely breed to be human aggressive as well. Don't feel bad about what you have to do. Perhaps you will even luck out and have some one adopt Pattie who will keep in touch with you. That would make it alot easier in the long run...and it would be alot easier to find some one willing to keep in touch through Rottie rescue than with a local shelter. I wouldn't suggest visiting Pattie as this may upset her...but, to keep in touch with the new owner will still make you feel a part of Patties life. :wink: As for Ro wanting to take care of this situation as soon as possible...just discuss with him that you want to do the "right" thing and get in touch with people who will make sure Pattie will find the right home. Shelters are usually short staffed and do not have the money to keep the dogs for very long...a high risk dog is more apt to be put down before others. A Rottie rescue raises funds to help take care of the Rotties they take in...they devote their energy, money and love into "their" breed...and they understand "their" breed alot better than some staff members at a local shelter...although I am sure there are lots of knowledgable shelter employees out there. :wink: [quote]She sleeps with him every night, she lets him dress her up and even stands in front of him when I'm talking to him.[/quote] This has me sitting her thinking that free may be associating your son as being lower on the totum pole than she. When my Rottie first started leaning against my legs when some one came to the house and standing between me and my guests...I put a stop to that. It may be cute, and may never lead to any thing...but, the posibility that some thing should happen is a little greater. Think of it this way, Free is possibly displaying some dominance gestures towards your son. The day may come when your son steps out of line in the heirachy of the house hold and Free may take it apon herself to put him in his place. Of course I am not there and I am only guessing at this as my Rottie started displaying this type of behavior towards me...I may be way off here...but, I would still be concerned. Do you practice the NIFIL policy with your dogs and allow your son to be the resource holder every once in awhile? This of course is just a thought and I could be wrong as I am not there I am only guessing. I just don't like the fact that a dog feels it has the right to guard a member of the family from other members of the family. Just because a dog allows a lower member in the house hold to do things to them does not necessary mean they are submitting to them. An adult dog is going to have much more patience with a young pup...but, once the pup steps too far out of line the adult dog will put the pup in its place. As I say, I may have read too much into that sentence of your post and I could be way off base here. So don't take offense, I am just concerned. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xavierandrea Posted July 19, 2004 Author Share Posted July 19, 2004 When I said talking.....,, I [i]really [/i]want to say yelling :oops: :oops: , I was trying to be nice. That is the only time Free does it. What is the NIFIL Policy? :-? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
__crazy_canine__ Posted July 19, 2004 Share Posted July 19, 2004 Cassie brought up some good points. Your son could do unthinkable things to try and get his dogs back together. You know your son better than any of us so I cant say whether or not he would. X is only 4 years younger than me but at our age 4 makes a BIG difference. Although I would love to know Patti was staying with you, it might be best for her not to. If it wasnt for you having kids I would say try and keep her but children bring a whole other problem to the situation. But, uh, Cassie I highly doubt Free is showing dominance issues. Any dog can be upset when someone is yelling. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cairn6 Posted July 20, 2004 Share Posted July 20, 2004 Oh geez this is so painful when Toto bit me my family kept telling me that I need to get rid of him because what if he hurts Samantha(she was 6 at the time) I was breaking up a fight like I said before and it had nothing to do with Samantha but they felt that since he bit once he will bite again. The pain I went through was agonizing and I decided to give him a chance and work on his dog aggression so I can't imagine the pain of actually having to give up the dog. But it wasn't a problem in my home though it was with other dogs outside of the home I don't know what my decision would have been if it was a problem at home. I really feel for you and no matter what you decide were all here to support you the best we can. [img]http://socialanxietysupport.com/thunder/icons/hug.gif[/img] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JaquelineC Posted July 20, 2004 Share Posted July 20, 2004 [quote name='anne3149']Jacqueline C: Please do not attribute a dog fight to human aggression. Rottweilers suffer enough unwarranted bad publicity as it is. There was no mention of human aggression at all. Rottweiler owners get their back up the same as Pit Bull owners do when human aggression is wrongly attributed to the breed.[/quote] I didn't attribute a dog fight to human aggression - I am not stupid. I am owned by THREE American Pit Bull Terriers, two of them unaltered. I know the difference between animal/dog and human aggression - I explain the concept to clueless people who are terrified of my dogs on a daily basis. I was simply wondering whether or not it was considered acceptable to attempt to rehome a rott who has bitten someone - As that would NOT be considered acceptable in the breed I own. I didn't say that her rott, or rotts in general, were killers by nature. I must have misunderstood something about the dog bite - As I read it, the dog bit her son, and that was the reason for rehoming her. If it had been a pit bull and it had bitten her son, while in the heat of a fight or not, it would not be considered responsible to try and rehome the dog. I was wondering why the policy's different for rotts - The original purpose they were bred for is different? Less bite inhibition? I like rotties, though I know very little about them. It was an honest question - I'm trying to learn more about the breed. I wasn't judging the situation, the person, the dog, or the breed in the least. - JaQUeline Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
courtnek Posted July 21, 2004 Share Posted July 21, 2004 T&J, did you read Seijun's other posts? I agree with him that spaying Patti may be the solution in the long run. I too have studied wolf behavior, and to me this looks like Patti is feeling "higher up" the ladder than Free, and expects her to back down. She may never do that. It may resolve your dilemna to get her spayed so the two females are at an equal status in your "pack". In the presence of an un-neutered male, since she is not spayed, she could be fighting for mating rights. It's not uncommon in a pack. Like Seijun said, males fight for rank, females can fight to the death, for the right to bear young.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
imported_Cassie Posted July 21, 2004 Share Posted July 21, 2004 If you plan on keeping Patti and are willing to work through this I would advise you to consult the help of a certified animal behaviorist. You have a child to think. Rotties can be dominant breeds and you really need to have some one show you how to deal with this situation "correctly". I doubt very much this is a situation which will be "cured" by spaying. Spaying does little to lessen the tension between 2 bitches which are fighting. You have to make a change in the way you treat them etc. to deal with this situation. If you decide to keep Patti I would strongly suggest that you implicate the NIFIL policy as well. The NIFIL policy is short for "Nothing is free in life" this means that all of your dogs have to earn every thing they get. Sit before going outside, sit before being fed, sit before getting their favorite toy...etc. Every one in the family has to participate including your son. Here are a couple of articles you may find interesting to read...especially the second website as this is a letter written for advise on a situation very much like yours...spayed female vs unspayed female. Enjoy :wink: [url]http://www.asah.net/behavior_topics_15.htm[/url] [url]http://www.canismajor.com/dog/feisty.html[/url] Good luck :wink: I myself have worked through quite successfully many aggression issues with some of my rescue dogs including my Rottweiler. The only difference for myself working through these issues with my rescues is the fact that I did not have a child to worry about. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xavierandrea Posted July 21, 2004 Author Share Posted July 21, 2004 Firstly I want to thank everyone for your well wishes and advice. Thank you so much. Secondly the worst happend yesterday. The girls fought once again and this time was probally going to end in the death of Free if Asim and Ro didn't interfer. The fight lasted at least 20 minutes or so! Asim pulled on Patti and she let go of Free, then Ro grabbed Free and pulled her into the bedroom. But before the fight ended guess what happened!! Xavier got hurt, pretty badly I might say! He received 7 stiches on his arm. The fight began within inches from him and he was trapped in a corner. I kept telling him "DO NOT MOVE! WAIT UNTIL THEY GET OUT OF THE WAY." He didn't and the cut/bite happened. My mind is made up and Patti needs to be rehomed, there is no place in my home for these fights!! I do not beleive that spaying will help at this point. Ro is so mad at me for keeping Patti that he slept on the couch. He even yelled at me, and if anyone knows Ro he never yells. He is the type of person to come through the door after work, nod his head to day hi and then sit on the couch and watch a movie. In the years that I have known him I never heard him yell or use any curse words. Well yesterday for the 1st time in our realationship he yelled and use the F work :o . He is a very quite man and minds his own. So I know he is very angry at me. I'm waiting until the shelter opens so I can call them and have Ro drop Patti off. Thank you for listening to me! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xavierandrea Posted July 21, 2004 Author Share Posted July 21, 2004 I just got off the phone with the shelter. They will not take Patti. They stated that she since she is known to attack another dog and in the heat of the attack bite a human she is deemed vicious. They said she needs to be PTS :cry: :cry: . I need to have her quarentined(sp) for 10 days and then take her to our vet. I called the vet and made the appointment for Saturday 7-31-04 at 10:25am. I feel sick! I can't beleive that it has come to this! The vet is calling me later to explain why dogs become aggressive and ask some questions of me. I can't even see the keyboard through my tears! God please forgive me for taking the life of one of your creatures!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LisaH Posted July 21, 2004 Share Posted July 21, 2004 It's most likely a Rabies quarantine K. I'm very sorry for what you're going through xavierandrea :( Will the vet board her for the quarantine? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
imported_Cassie Posted July 21, 2004 Share Posted July 21, 2004 I am so sorry it had to come to this. :( At the Vet clinic I work at we will quantine a dog for 10 days due to a human bite for disease purposes (rabies). Where are they quantining her at? the shelter..? A dog is considered dangerous when it fights with other dogs and punctures or lacerates another dog, or bites a person who is trying to break up the fight...it is not normal for dog with good bite inhibition to break the skin of the dog they are fighting with or any human trying to break up a fight. Spaying would not have helped this situation. In my experience of working directly with dogs and owning many many unspayed females and spayed females with intact males etc. it has all been the up individual dog, the breed and how I treated them which decided if the dogs were going to get along well etc. I feel bad for your son being involved in this, and it could have been alot worse. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bk_blue Posted July 21, 2004 Share Posted July 21, 2004 I'm so sorry :cry: I can't even begin to imagine how you feel right now. *hugs* Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pitbullEmily Posted July 21, 2004 Share Posted July 21, 2004 I'm so sorry for all of you. I hope your son won't be too scarred by this. We all need to heed the lesson here. When you have dogs that have demonstrated this level of hatred for each other, they must be separated at all times. No letting your guard down! It's possible to maintain this level of dog-household management, but it's certainly beyond what most people can deal with. again, my sympathies. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
izzy Posted July 21, 2004 Share Posted July 21, 2004 I'm really sorry to hear that xavierandrea, i can't imagine how you must feel. It sucks it will end like this, but you know you did everything you could for fix the situation. Big hughs for you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.