Horsefeathers! Posted October 12, 2003 Share Posted October 12, 2003 Serious dilemma here (I know, from me, who would have guessed, right?). A lot of you know that we have been dealing with dog aggression problems with Penny, our Pit(ish) Bull. From what I've learned, it's to be expected that she may be animal aggressive, so we are diligent in our monitoring of her and have done all we can to be responsible. She has NEVER once shown any form of aggression to my husband or me... we can take food from her, handle her any way we want, anything and she NEVER has a problem with it. Penny has recently begun sleeping on the couch. It really was no problem because the rest of them are allowed on the furniture as well. She was just never interested before. Now all of a sudden, it's her favorite place. I have always been able to handle her on the couch just like any other time. Tonight, I was sitting in my little chair thingy by the couch (it's a little seat thing that I have kind of strategically placed where no one can accidentally wander up on her). I reached over, like I have done a million times, and just patted her on her shoulder. She raised up her head, curled her lip and growled! I looked around, thinking that another dog or cat was too close, or that it was because I had abruptly awakened her. She will react like that if she is getting "lovies" and another animal comes too close. There was no one near. I thought maybe I had just missed someone, so I did it again... leaned over and patted her on her shoulder, same as usual. She did it again! And she was NOT asleep! Ok, I know all the demotion techniques. I did get her off the couch and put her in her kennel. She was fine with it. My question is should I be worried? Is that a naive question? To be totally and brutally honest, the only reason Penny is still alive is because of my husband. For those who don't know, Penny has been vet tested, vet checked, examined and all that out the wazoo, is healthy as a horse, is on medication to help "mellow" her out some. We have worked with a behavior oriented vet in dealing with her. There are eight other dogs in this house, not to mention cats, that I am ALWAYS on the lookout to be sure no one gets hurt. She is typically very obedient and could easily ace the CGC test as far as her obedience goes. Also, point of interest here, she bit a boy a few years ago, but I fully believe he deserved it as he always used to taunt her and tease her through the fence. Anyway, I never used that to believe she is at all human aggressive. She doesn't lunge at people and I can take her out in public anywhere. Am I overreacting? I have long believed Penny doesn't have a place here and rehoming her is not an option. Besides the fact that it would be virtually impossible to find a qualified and experienced owner with no other animals, our state law is such that once a dog has bitten someone, for any reason, it's a dangerous dog and it states that a dangerous dog can not be sold, or given away. If she ever bit anyone else, we would be responsible. Don't get me wrong... I love this girl. I really do and it breaks my heart to feel the way I do about her. I also sometimes really resent her. I don't know if I'm just not thinking logically... I'm already uncomfortable with her around my other animals and I want to make sure I'm not just using this episode as another nail in her coffin. By the same token, I don't want to have my head up my butt and ignore what may be obvious to some. I'm rambling, I know. What would you do? I'm so freaked out by this. We've done EVERYTHING to be responsible with her and have gone above and beyond trying to show her affection and love. Do I wait to see if it happens again? Do I take it as a warning? The obvious... she will no longer be allowed on the couch, but still... the fact that she did it at all is freaking me out. I wouldn't be nearly as freaked out if I hadn't seen the ferocity she can use when lashing out at other dogs. :-? :-? :-? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
courtnek Posted October 12, 2003 Share Posted October 12, 2003 I know you love her, and dont want to part with her, but if you have faithfully demoted her the best you can (and I mean FAITHFULLY, with demotion problems she shouldnt be on the couch at all) you might have to let her go. Since she WAS on the couch, I would work on demoting her further. NO couches, NO beds, NO doorways..if the other dogs can be up there, because they are not aggressive, so be it. THIS ONE NEEDS TO BE OMEGA...she wil become Omega sooner if you dont give her the same priveledges you give the other, non-aggressive dogs. It sounds harsh, I know, but maybe letting her see the other dogs getting priveledges she CANT, because she's aggressive, will cure her of this tendency. PLEASE dont treat her like she's an equal to the other dogs...she has already proven she will take advantage of it, and NO dog should ever snarl at or snap at their humans....FOR ANY REASON.... THINK PACK RULES...the alpha would NOT allow this, under ANY circumstances... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Horsefeathers! Posted October 12, 2003 Author Share Posted October 12, 2003 Well, after a night of tossing and turning on the couch (I never even went to bed), I'm glad to report that I'm just as confused and indecisive as before. This is eating me up. Of course, Penny stopped by this morning, put her head on my chest and said good morning to me like she always does. Bless her little heart, I do love the girl. I want to offer more insight into my feelings toward Penny. I don't know if I ever shared this here before, but I don't think so. Some of you remember when my beloved Goober died last year. He was very old, dilapidated, deaf, nearly blind, senile, was having seizures and had fallen very ill. Truth be told, he outlived everyone's expectations. Anyway, the final episode where we had to let Goober go, Penny was involved. She was asleep near me and Goober blundered into her. She came up in a fury of teeth and flying fur (keep in mind that Goober weighed 4 lbs and was very frail) and that sent him into that last, final seizure from which he never recovered. I agonize over that every day. I don't know if I was angrier with Penny or with myself. I have never gotten over the fact that we were so conscientious about keeping Goober safe, warm and loved during the autumn of his life (he was a rescue who had apparently had a VERY hard life, based on the condition he was in). I have never been able to get over the fact that his last coherent thoughts, after all our time and effort in keeping him safe and comfortable, were of Penny attacking him. God, that makes me cry even now. I felt and still feel like I failed him. It was THEN that we became so diligent about making sure Penny is secure and keeping our other animals safe. I had seen Penny "snap" before, but never to that degree and I never realized she was that huge a threat. That is why we are so diligent, to the point of paranoia, about Penny now. My husband believes that if we just try hard enough, everything will be ok. What I'm getting at is that my feelings toward Penny are tainted by that. Since it happened, I have said over and over that I think we need to put her down. I almost took her that very morning and had it done, but didn't want to make that kind of decision when I didn't have my wits about me. Still, for the past year, it's on my mind and I can't help but feel like I'm jeopardizing my other dogs. I feel like one day I'm not going to be quick enough, or am going to not be paying attention, and she's going to do it again. After all, I was adamant about keeping Goober safe and comfortable and look where it got him. I never once, not for a minute, thought Penny would ever growl or raise a lip at one of us. It is SO out of character for her. Even during times when she has been in pain and I've had to doctor her, she never complained. She has had some ugly cuts and skin infections and a couple of sprains that I've doctored and she always handled it ok, NEVER showing any aggression. As far as me or my husband go, I trusted her implicitly. Now the seed of distrust has been planted, along with the other past stuff, and I don't know if I can get over that. I've also awakened her abruptly in the past and she never reacted this way. I will talk to my vet again, but I already know what he's going to say. He firmly believes Penny should have been put to sleep last year and has urged me to seriously consider it. My vet is also a personal friend and this is not something he would tell me lightly. He knows me well and he knows my animals. I know he would not tell me such a thing if he didn't seriously believe it was for the best. Anyway, I'm still indecisive. Part of me really believes that putting her down would be the right thing to do for the sake of the rest of my household, but I don't have the fortitude required to do it. I've never given up on any of my animals. She was raised from the time she was 4-5 weeks old here with love and affection just like all my other animals. I can't help wondering where I went wrong with her. She is obviously not allowed back onto the couch, but it goes deeper than that. It's like it hurt my feelings that she did that. Her smile and the way she wags her whole butt... I don't know if I can part with that. Still, if I'm just being naive and she ever hurts someone or another animal, I just know I will die. Please forgive my ramblings. Bear with me. You have no idea how much my heart and soul are hurting right now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
courtnek Posted October 12, 2003 Share Posted October 12, 2003 OH HF!!!! hard choice....very hard.... You have to ask yourself a couple of hard questions.... Do YOU now feel safe around her, after she threatened you? Do you still feel you can control her, and make her obey you promptly? Do you feel angry at her behaviour, or afraid of it? Tell your friend the vet the true answers to these questions, tell your husband as well, and then perhaps you can make the wisest decision in this matter. My thoughts are with you. Please know that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Anonymous Posted October 12, 2003 Share Posted October 12, 2003 I'm so sorry HF... while I can't give you any professional opinions or anything of that sort, I can give you my hopes and wishes, and tell you I know how you feel, trust me, I do. In a situation like yours, it's hard to part between feelings and whats right, and whether you really know whats right, and what might happen if you take your chances. I'm so sorry this is happening, and I hope that whatever disision you make, turns out for the best, and I'm very sure it will, your very smart with a good head on your sholders, and i know you'll pick what's best for everyone, including Penny. I know that feeling of betrayl almost, when Penny growled at you. Coal did that to me once, after that I didn't want to have anything to do with him. It was very hard to go from a dog that would do anything to protect me, to a dog that seemed exact opposite. But I've been working with him since, and we're now on the verge or a great friendship. But it took me forever to get out of my head that feeling of bertayl. I'm sure for whatever reason she did that, she still loves you lots, as it sounds from when she woke you up :wink: Good luck HF, I'm sure everything will turn out on the good side in the end! :buzi: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Anonymous Posted October 12, 2003 Share Posted October 12, 2003 If I remember correctly Penny is part Pit bull correct? How old is she?? If she is infact part Pit bull and over the age of 2...the animal aggression is extremely [i]normal[/i] for the breed. However the growling or displays of aggression towards you are not normal, and certainly need to be figured out. However if it is something you can work out with her and trainer, or however..I don't think it's fair to put her to sleep for being true to her breed. Onless her animal aggression, is far to serious that she cannot be control. Sounds though she might be ok in an only dog home. Im sorry you feel like you do about her and the situation. I dont know how I would feel in the same situation if it was my dogs..probably very much the same. It's just so hard. Here's a great site for you to read about animal aggression and human aggression in Pit bulls..trust me it's worth the read. [url]http://www.realpitbull.com/[/url] My heart really does go out too you, as this cannot be easy..what so ever! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gooeydog Posted October 12, 2003 Share Posted October 12, 2003 I'm sorry to hear this HF :( I would probably be wondering the same as you if I was in your situation. On one hand, she was warning you off, and didn't just snap at you as she could have. On the other, she has numerous other issues, and has never acted in this way before, which could signal that as she's aging, she's developing more issues. As you mentioned, the issues with the other dogs are not completely out or the "norm" for her mix, but with 8 (9?, sorry, I lost count :oops: ) other dogs there, you do have to consider their safety as well, and rehoming her is almost certainly not a viable option. It's hard to make a firm decision in a situation like this, especially when it's someone/thing you have bonded so closely with. Only you can decide what's best for her, you, and your family (both human and canine). From what you've posted here in the past, I think you will be able to decide what's best for all involved, though it's horrible that anyone should have to make a decision like that at all. I wish you the best of luck in whatever you decide. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Horsefeathers! Posted October 12, 2003 Author Share Posted October 12, 2003 [quote name='K']...How old is Penny now?[/quote] [quote name='ThePoutyPitbull']If I remember correctly Penny is part Pit bull correct? How old is she?? [/quote] Sorry, I forgot to answer this before. Penny will be 5 years old in January and we've had her all her life, since she was 4-5 weeks old. Penny is a Pit Bull/Boxer cross... primarily Pit, I reckon, as the mother was only half Boxer herself. Penny did sort of "turn on" at about the age of two, but it didn't seem TOO serious at the time (hindsight, however, is 20/20). I did do a lot of reading and started learning that this was normal in Pits and that animal aggression is to be expected. Truth be told, I am sure I would never have adopted Penny had I known then what I know now about Pit Bulls (only because I always have a multi-pet household and a lot of fosters also come and go... I've had to turn down many female fosters because of Penny), but at the time, she was simply a puppy who desperately needed a home. Also, at that time, I was still believing that dogs were solely products of their environments and upbringing. You know, that whole "raise 'em right and they'll be ok" thing. It's only been recently, because of Penny and the consequent research, that I've discovered otherwise and that's a hard pill to swallow. When her behavior started changing, we did go through multiple vet exams, bloodwork, thyroid checks, and some xrays just to be sure she wasn't ill or in pain. That has been about two years ago. She is on medication to help keep her a bit more mellow. Also, just this year, we have worked with a behavior oriented vet who has been unbelievable with the resources she's offered in regard to Pit Bulls and their temperaments. Anyway, that's just a little background for those who haven't been familiar with the whole Penny saga. One more thing that I worry about... since Penny is so unpredictable, she spends a lot of time in her kennel. She eats there, she sleeps there and she must be there any time she can't be physically monitored. I am wondering how fair it is to her for her to have to live out her life in a kennel because she can't be trusted. We've tried to keep her as much a part of the family as possible by getting as huge a kennel as possible and putting it in the middle of the living room so that she isn't banished away to solitary confinement, but still... Also, she doesn't even have the luxury of bedding. She sleeps on the cold tray because she can't have bedding. She shreds it and eats it. It wouldn't bother me except that she started developing bronchitis from coughing up the bedding. Also, there is the danger of blockages. [quote name='courtnek']You have to ask yourself a couple of hard questions.... Do YOU now feel safe around her, after she threatened you? Do you still feel you can control her, and make her obey you promptly? Do you feel angry at her behaviour, or afraid of it? [/quote] I don't feel UNsafe, but I no longer trust her, if that makes sense. I mean, I'm not avoiding her, but still... I do still feel I can control her. I've been able to simply tell her today to get off the couch and she respectfully complied. However, I'm now too chicken to actually try to MAKE her move had she not. That never worried me before. Not so much angry, a little afraid, yes, but mostly hurt. :( Thanks, all, for trying to help me out. I'm truly at my wits' end. Also, thanks for the link, TPP. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Horsefeathers! Posted October 12, 2003 Author Share Posted October 12, 2003 :( :( :( [img]http://groups.msn.com/_Secure/0XwDmAskeYO*0vJNl7uYxMg3FuXoL04rALdTz8BbVX0WonOQH2UC28iAc8P8IXmtUkN*lWy0oq1ZJCq9szMPt0e*qU6zHjq5RMUZtIoQi5nAP*pP*feF0ZHcyqCM5YJTIZvV8qcHX8Xs/Penny%20ears.jpg?dc=4675383177158648998[/img] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sanvean Posted October 12, 2003 Share Posted October 12, 2003 No advice, but hugs and prayers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Malamum Posted October 12, 2003 Share Posted October 12, 2003 I don't really have any advice either but the only thing I can think of that is that it may be quite stressfull for a dog aggressive dog to live in a house with so many other dogs and is now releasing that in other ways.??????? I'm probably way off but just a thought. Anyway... I am sorry you are in such a distressing situation HF and I will be thinking of you. I know you will make the right decision for all involved. Lots of hugs to you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
abker17 Posted October 12, 2003 Share Posted October 12, 2003 I don't have any advice, but I'll be keeping u in my thoughts and prayers. :calus: Goodluck HF, and whatever decision u make, I'm sure it'll be the best one. :angel: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
behle Posted October 13, 2003 Share Posted October 13, 2003 Sorry for this awful situation, HF! :puppydogeyes: I hope that you are able to sort it out for the best. My thoughts will be with you during this difficult time. Don't agonize....do what your gut feelings and knowledge tell you is the best course of action for all involved. You know we will support you in any way we can as you have done for us during difficult times! Hugs from me and Ben & Jerry!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Horsefeathers! Posted October 13, 2003 Author Share Posted October 13, 2003 Just an update... We have decided it is best to let Penny go. We've talked and thought and talked some more. Penny has never turned anything on that ever turned off, if that makes sense. When she started her "episodes," it was with Tucker, our Lab, whom she is closest to of all. I started reading and researching and realized it was about the time Tucker was going lame and consequently had hip surgery. Anyway, I had read that dogs will sometimes "cull" out weaker members of the pack, so I accepted that and became more diligent. She NEVER bothered the smaller dogs. Then I had to pull my Peanut (Toy Poodle) out of her mouth one night. So I read that same sex aggression was common. Oh well, she NEVER bothered any of the small male dogs. Then she jumped Goober, sending him into that last seizure from which he never recovered. Oh well, at least she NEVER bothers the cats. Wrong again... she started going after one cat in particular. Still, it's all animal aggression and I accepted it as that and was diligent in trying to maintain a safe environment for all involved. Oh well, at least she had NEVER shown any aggression to either of us. Now I'm wrong again. Again, once Penny turns on, she doesn't turn off and she also doesn't bluff. Whether I'm right or wrong, or it makes me a bastard for "giving up," I can not in good faith continue to live like this and now wonder how long before she goes after me. And she would eventually. She has never "turned off" once she "turns on." Maybe I'm naive, but I still don't blame the Pit Bull in her and have no problem with the breed. I mean, I accept that as the contributing factor to her animal aggression, but I honestly believe that Penny has a screw loose somewhere that we just aren't able to fix. I do now believe she is a valid threat and not to be trusted. It wasn't just the snarl, per se. Plenty of my other dogs have grumbled and complained. It's the fact that Penny means it and is extremely violent with her outbursts when they DO finally occur. Penny shoots to kill, so to speak. So I'm off to the vet this morning to make that final drive with her. My heart is heavy, my throat is tight and I've been up all night thinking this through. I still love her, but I honestly don't think SHE can be happy, either, living this way. It's like she is always on her guard TRYING to behave, but then it's like she just can't help herself. God, I hate this. Anyway, that's the lowdown. I may be right or wrong, but I don't know what else I can do. I will stay with her and hold her until the end and then she will be cremated and her ashes spread under her favorite tree (the one where the squirrel runs down and gives her the middle finger and she goes nuts... she and that squirrel have quite a thing going... I honestly believe that squirrel will miss her). She never could find peace in this life... maybe she will find it in the next. :cry: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aonir Posted October 13, 2003 Share Posted October 13, 2003 Im so sorry HF :( I'm sure you did your best to prevent this *hugs* Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sanvean Posted October 13, 2003 Share Posted October 13, 2003 Oh, sweetie...we aren't going to judge you in the least. I know you love her and it is hard to make this decision, but I think you've made the best choice. No one expects you to live with a pet that makes you and your other pets feel unsafe. Poor Penny...I agree with you that something is not quite right with her. Hugs to you both. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aonir Posted October 13, 2003 Share Posted October 13, 2003 Lets all give HF a BIG, supporting, Dogo group hug!! *hugs everyone* (K, we need a hugging emoticons!!) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sheltielover Posted October 13, 2003 Share Posted October 13, 2003 Group hug......[img]http://www.kurts-smilies.de/gruppe.gif[/img] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Anonymous Posted October 13, 2003 Share Posted October 13, 2003 Well, we made the drive and Penny is gone. Doc talked to me about this for a while before we actually did it, but he has believed that we should have done this before now. He believes that Penny was more or less going senile and was basically mentally ill. He said there are some dogs that just can't be helped. There are no psychiatric wards or mental hospitals for dogs and often the best thing to do is end the suffering in this world and send them to the next. He always believed Penny would get worse and he was right. I had really hoped I could "help" her with medication and monitoring and, of course, enough love should've fixed anything (right?). We don't believe this had as much to do with her being a Pit(ish) Bull, but more like she just had some genetic screw loose. It was such a hard decision to make and my heart feels like it is broken into a gazillion pieces. Thanks so much for the kind words and virtual hugs. It means a lot to me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Anonymous Posted October 13, 2003 Share Posted October 13, 2003 I'm sooo sorry HF. You made the right disission though. I'm sure Penny is very happy up at the rainbow bridge. You gave her a wonderful life and did a lot for her, and I'm sure she's very thankful. *joins in group hug* I agree with K completely, I have a lot of respect for you as well for trying so hard for Penny all those years, and now a greater respect for making this hard disision. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Malamum Posted October 13, 2003 Share Posted October 13, 2003 HF, I am so sorry that you had to make such a hard choice - even if it was the right one. I don't believe anyone could have tried harder or done more for a dog and what you have done for Penny. Lots of hugs to you :cry: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
abker17 Posted October 13, 2003 Share Posted October 13, 2003 Oh, HF I'm so sorry. Sending u lots of hugs an prayers in this hard time. :angel: U are a real angel HF, all the rescues u have taken in, I really have a lot of respect for u. :angel: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marion Posted October 13, 2003 Share Posted October 13, 2003 I am so sorry HF, I am in tears thinking of your pain. It was a brave and selfless act you did out of love for Penny. :angel: Play at the Bridge Penny :angel: From all of us [img]http://www.valentine.gr/images/hugs.jpg[/img] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marion Posted October 13, 2003 Share Posted October 13, 2003 Group Hug: [img]http://wrweb.com/rothhaas-images/hugs.gif[/img] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marion Posted October 13, 2003 Share Posted October 13, 2003 [img]http://www.westgeauga.k12.oh.us/hs/sections/student_life/hugs/hugsmain.jpg[/img] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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