Hello I...

[Guest Anonymous]

Im done. It is bewildering to me that anyone that fancies themselves to be a APBT owner of good character could be so dense. Its not opinion when the entire world agrees it to be true, its not opinion when science proves it true, that my friend is the definition of a fact. If you werent so argumentive you would see that noone said your dogs absolutely will be vicious killers, what is being said is that they may not be as tolerant of strange dogs as they mature. I cant believe that this is such a hard fact for you to grasp.

For me and any owner of any breed its common damn sense, as dogs get older they lose interest in things that they have done up until that point. My rottie loved all people as a puppy but as he got older his guarding instinct kicked in and he became much more aloof and protective of home and family. Many dogs do not reach full potential for years, the APBT is no different. The ones that do become dog aggressive arent always that way right off the bat some i have heard of being quite dog friendly as old as three before it happened. and yes there are some that it never happened, some only tolerate dogs of the opposite sex and some tolerate NO DOGS at all.

So good luck to you, watch your boys and for your sake i hope they never do develope, who knows you may have APBTs that werent bred to standard. IF they are then it just increases the chance that they will get dog-aggressive later. after all if you find dog aggression in EVERY SINGLE STANDARD for EVERY SINGLE REGISTRY then there must be something to it.... you think?

[Guest Anonymous]

[quote name='Hmmmm']Here you go Hollywood, you asked for it...

[size=6]Bred for health, temperament and physical appearance[/size]
Purebreds have predictable physical characteristics.
Many of their genes are "fixed," For example, all Golden Retrievers have fixed genes for medium/large size, floppy ears and golden color. It is the pairing of dogs with such genes that keeps a breed looking like it should over many generations. If dogs were allowed to mate and nature to take its course, all dog breeds would evolve to look alike, probably much like the wolf.

When you see a purebred puppy, you have a good idea of what he will look like as an adult.

The breeder matters. Only skilled breeders with some knowledge of genetics can predict how one dog's genes will combine with another's. Responsible breeders use their skill and knowledge of genetics, not only to breed generations of dogs that look like the written standard for the breed, and more importantly, to pair dogs together that are likely to produce genetically sound, healthy dogs with temperaments typical of their breed.

[color=red]In addition to physical appearance, many dogs come with tendencies or working behaviors specific to their breed. In purebreds, these tendencies are predictable -- not so in mixed breeds.
To some extent, temperament is also fixed ("programmed" or "hardwired") into the genes of purebred dogs.[/color]
Most breeds were developed for working purposes -- herding sheep, hunting birds or rabbits, killing rats, guarding estates, pulling sleds. Working behaviors include:

chasing things that move (other animals, running children, bikes and cars)
nipping at things that move
barking at things that move
grabbing smaller animals as though they're prey
digging holes in the ground
acting suspiciously or threateningly toward strangers
baying and howling
putting their nose to the ground and running away
making their own decisions and ignoring your commands
[color=red]Before you decide on a breed, be sure you know its behavior traits and what it was developed to do. It will help ensure you find the best match for your family and lifestyle. [/color]
Another one... [url]http://www.asca.org/Education/Advanced/bathwater.htm[/url]
If you would like to see more, just ask.

[color=#444444][/color][/quote]



I don't see anything on there directly saying certains breeds are dog agressive, do you? Also a person who breeds dogs is not a Genetic Scientist.

If Pitbulls are so dog agressive then how come the dogs this breed was created from ,which are still around today are not considered dog agressive? After all one of those breeds used to make the American Pitbull Terrier must have possed the "agressive dog gene" and must have passed it on. Now if those breeds used didn't have it, then where did this "dog agresive gene" come from? Was there a genetic scientist working with those dogs to mutate their genes some how to create a "dog agresive gene" in the Pitbull? The APBT is used in dog shows as everyone here already knows. If this breed has that "dog agresive gene" how come they are in dog shows and don't act up with all the other dogs close by? It's training.

So if the breeds utilized to create the APBT did not have an agressive gene to pass on. Then where does this "dog agressive gene" come from. No where. Dog agression is a learned behavior.

Pitbulls are not "Time Bombs" waiting to explode one day. If you think they are, then the owner was the one that put the bomb together (part by part) and set the timer to create that explosion some day.

[Guest Anonymous]

Gooeydog- I read slot of one wedsite. here is a quote from one of their pages.


THE REAL PIT BULL
Promoting A Positive Image
[url]http://www.realpitbull.com/[/url]

Pit Bulls can and do interact peacefully with other dogs and animals. Individual dog temperament, early training and socializing, all play an important role in whether or not a Pit Bull is capable of getting along with other animals. Many people successfully keep multiple Pit Bulls and other pets in the same household. Success is based on careful supervision, proper management and training, and the individual animals involved.

A dog that has been raised properly will be easier to handle and control than a dog that has not been socialized or taught how to behave.

[Guest Anonymous]

[quote name='Kiwi'][quote name='Dog Lover']I'm new to this thread, but I thought it was a FACT that Pit Bulls tend to be dog aggressive. Not ALL Pit Bulls exibt this trait, but you can never trust a Pit Bull not to fight if given the opportunity. I don't understand what the argument is...maybe I missed something. :hmmmm:[/quote]

No you didn't miss anything, Hollywood did ...... a brain :roll:[/quote]

Really KIWI , how very droll. Are you all out of words to write, so you revert to insults.

[Guest Anonymous]

you know what worries me? the fact that you actual might believe the stuff you are spewing on this board. the fact that you think that everyone that owns a pit bull that is dog aggressive is a bad owner.

Do you want to know where the dog aggressive gene came from? Years and Years of selective breeding for the most superb canine fighter the world has ever known. The APBT is a fighter, Born and bred, nothing can change that. all the socialization in the world cant make it different. All it serves to do is put the dog in situations that might trigger that inborn instinct of combat.

Show dogs are very well trained and extremely obedient [b]in thier environments[/b]. Show dogs are not allowed to romp and play all willy-nilly are they? They must be kept with thier handlers and on-lead. and even so at dog shows for APBT dog-aggression is acceptable and not fault against the dog, why? Because it is expected, now the dogs are not allowed to lunge and snap at each other but they arent expected to play like puppies either. So even at this your views are marred.

You cant find a single piece of evidentce of any kind to support your... "its how you raise them" theory for dog-aggression can you?


I gotta ask... are you reading these or are you just skipping to the end and making posts? becuase your case is horrible, not a single individual has been swayed by your arguments. YOu have been presented on numerous occasions with fact backed up by fact backed up by fact and you come back with a article written by a no name with zero breed knowledge.

Yeah.... :roll:

[Horsefeathers!]

[quote name='Hollywood']Pitbulls are not "Time Bombs" waiting to explode one day. If you think they are, then the owner was the one that put the bomb together (part by part) and set the timer to create that explosion some day.[/quote]

At least two people have given examples of dog aggressive dogs and what we did to socialize and train our dogs. They are still dog aggressive despite the training and socialization. If it's ALWAYS the owners' negligence that creates these temperaments, I'd still like your input on what could have been done differently in our cases (posted previously in this discussion). I say that with sincerity; no sarcasm intended. I would really like to know how you think the "timer" was set on my dog and what you think we should have done differently to not create this "time bomb."

For what it's worth, I used to believe until only recently that dogs were solely a product of their upbringing and care. I believed for 30some years that enough love and training would make a "good" dog out of any dog and that any dog with behavioral "problems" (for lack of a better word... not that I'm implying that dog aggression is a "problem" for Pits... more like a fact of life). The behavorial problems in my own Pit Bull (and her dog aggression IS a problem to me) are what have convinced me that some things are indeed instinct rather than learned behaviors. I did not raise this dog any differently than I did any of my others and none of them are dog aggressive. There has to be a reason for that. It took me 30some years to ever learn that some dogs are just hardwired for certain things. Labs will always tend to retrieve (mine was never taught to retrieve... he always seemed to instinctively know how), herding dogs will always try to herd, Terriers will always tend to be (uh, what's the word I'm looking for here?) ballsy :oops: . It's just what they do.

You may never have a problem with your dogs. No one is saying it's imminent. Just be aware that the potential exists. My Pit Bull was a bit over two years old before she began displaying her dog aggressive tendencies and it did seem to come totally out of nowhere. She is wonderful on leash, sits, downs, heels, stays, lets people approach (if in public) and does anything I ask of her. She would never just pick a fight with a dog in a park, but if she perceived another dog as challenging her or invading her personal space, she would joyfully kill them. I shudder to think of having her unleashed where other dogs roam. All it would take is some little old lady's Chihuahua to come sniffing around too closely and that dog would die.

[Malamum]

[quote]If this breed has that "dog agresive gene" how come they are in dog shows and don't act up with all the other dogs close by? It's training. [/quote]
:o :o :wallbash: :wallbash:

You [b]REALLY[/b] haven't read, listned to or acknowledged a [b]single[/b] word anyone else has said. Have you???

Not one person here has said that the APBT shouldn't/can't be around other dogs peroid! All that has been said is that due to the nature of the APBT the dog park isn't the best place for them. My understanding is that they can be around other dogs in a strictly controlled and supervised environment (which the dog park is not). Anyone, please correct me if I am wrong on this point.

BTW - I am still waiting for my answer on what step I missed when training my dog. If you honestly believe that anyone who has a dog aggressive dog hasn't trained them correctly then I [b]honestly[/b] want to know what I have done wrong. :-?

[Carolk9s]

Will someone PLEASE send this ill-mannered child to his/her room!
All of Hollywoods rants bring to mind the saying, 'There are none so blind as those who would not see'

It's NEVER too late to open your mind Hollywood, give it a try.

Many if not all terriers are known for their 'feistiness'. Candy has some terrier in her, perhaps pit bull though she seems to delicate in build for that. She also does not have the jaw structure of a pit bull, more along the line of a Jack Russell or Parsons as they are also known. I KNOW if another dog snaps in her face she is going to fly right back at them. She will not take the crap from other dogs that Jesse or Brittany will though both will defend themselves. She will willingly take on a dog 4 times her size.
Even my trained and socialized Jesse aka the Gentleman Belgian has been jumped by another dog and responded in his own defense. Seems like Hollywood thinks his dogs would simply turn the other cheek or be easy to call off if a fight should break out.
boys will be boys and dogs will be dogs. They are NOT little people in fur coats, they do not think the way we think, they do not react the way we react, they do not reason the way we reason.

[gooeydog]

lol :lol: Another quote off the site (page: [url]http://www.realpitbull.com/ownership.html[/url] ) you posted for me (bold is my emphasis):
"[b]Do not get a Pit Bull if you are not prepared to deal with animal-related aggression[/b]. Pit Bulls are normally very aggressive towards other dogs and small animals. Early training and socialization helps to curb this tendency, but there is [b]no "fix" for a dog that is predisposed to aggression towards other animals[/b]. [b]If you are of the type who likes to have a dog that will mingle peacefully with other dogs, visit the off-leash dog park, etc., the Pit Bull is not for you.[/b] Also consider the ramifications of bringing home an animal aggressive breed if you already have pets. At the very least you should be prepared to keep the Pit Bull seperated from the other animals when you are not around to supervise."

and

"Well, raising a pup with your other pets and/or children, training him "right" and so on, can all have a very positive effect on the pup's behavior as an adult. However, in the end, your dog is [b]only as good as his genetic makeup[/b]. A dog with good genetic makeup will end up safe, sound and stable with healthy environmental help, and sometimes despite a bad environment (which many an abused/neglected rescue dog has shown). A dog with bad genetic makeup will always have bad genetic makeup, and despite the best efforts to raise and train him properly, an owner will always be fighting an uphill battle. In some cases, [b]all the training and love in the world cannot overcome a dog's genetic behaviorial influences[/b]. This is [b]important to remember when we're talking about Pit Bulls since, as a whole, the breed is genetically animal aggressive (this sort of aggression is considered very normal in the breed)[/b]."

Also note the link "pit bulls and dog parks don't mix!" on the homepage of the site.... might want to find something a bit more geared towards your own argument next time :lol:
[url]http://www.realpitbull.com/parks.html[/url]

About APBTs and dog shows...
A dog show is a completely different setting from an offleash park... at shows, dogs are kept crated or in their own areas pretty much all the time that they aren't showing, and on lead when in the ring. MOST dog aggressive dogs can be taught to mind their own business around other dogs when on-leash, though it's often a different story when they're no longer restrained. So there's very little correlation between dog aggression and being able to show. In addition, some show venues (ADBA comes to mind as one) allow even extremely dog aggressive dogs to be shown, and there will sometimes be dogs that scream, lunge at other dogs, etc participating in the shows.

And actually, neither of the APBTs supposed component breeds still exists in the same form today as during the breed's conception... bulldogs have undergone many changes in temperament and physical characteristics since they were crossed to make the APBT (and according to some breed enthusiasts, the old "bulldog" IS the modern APBT). The breed most commonly said to have been mixed with bulldog to make the APBT- the White English Terrier- is now extinct. Of course, you could just assume that it was like most terrier breeds... bold dogs with high prey/hunting drive, who were often dog aggressive as well... as is cited by the AKC themselves: "[b]Terriers typically have little tolerance for other animals, including other dogs[/b]." ( [url]http://akc.org/breeds/recbreeds/terriers.cfm[/url] ).

Your arguments are more than a bit flawed :lol:

[Carolk9s]

"A dog that has been raised properly will be easier to handle and control than a dog that has not been socialized or taught how to behave."

Well DUH! Why didn't I ever think of that? Go figure.
My Belgian did not ever even see sheep until he was over 10 years old. Just never had the money or opportunity to take him around them.
It was a beautiful thing seeing him 'click on'. Oh he was not perfect, if I had continued there was much refinement needed but the instinct was right there. Because that is what his breed does. He was not afraid of them, he did not try to eat them. He did not ignore them. He HERDED them. For generations and generations that is what his breed has done.
What exactly was the pit bull bred for Hollywood?

[Malamum]

[b]Guest wrote..[/b]

[quote]Gooeydog- I read slot of one wedsite. here is a quote from one of their pages.


THE REAL PIT BULL
Promoting A Positive Image
[url]http://www.realpitbull.com/[/url]

Pit Bulls can and do interact peacefully with other dogs and animals. Individual dog temperament, early training and socializing, all play an important role in whether or not a Pit Bull is capable of getting along with other animals. Many people successfully keep multiple Pit Bulls and other pets in the same household. [color=red]Success is based on careful supervision, proper management [/color]and training, and the individual animals involved.

A dog that has been raised properly will be easier to handle and control than a dog that has not been socialized or taught how to behave.[/quote]

Ok... to make a point from your own post I have highlighted in red " Success is based on careful supervision and proper management"........ this actually goes to the heart of the original debate.

IMO the dog park is not an environment where careful supervision and proper management can be exercised which is why they are not a good idea for the APBT.

[Guest Anonymous]

[quote name='Anonymous'][quote name='Kiwi'][quote name='Dog Lover']I'm new to this thread, but I thought it was a FACT that Pit Bulls tend to be dog aggressive. Not ALL Pit Bulls exibt this trait, but you can never trust a Pit Bull not to fight if given the opportunity. I don't understand what the argument is...maybe I missed something. :hmmmm:[/quote]

No you didn't miss anything, Hollywood did ...... a brain :roll:[/quote]

Really KIWI , how very droll. Are you all out of words to write, so you revert to insults.[/quote]

No I believe the word is Troll ie you! Why would I bother wasting my words on you? You haven't even bothered to read any of the other members' posts - which is a shame, most of them were fantastic. :klacz:
Unfortunately, patience has never been one of my virtues, and I'm afraid I lost mine on this thread looooong ago :roll:

[Guest Anonymous]

If you take an APBT to an ADBA show and they show no interest in the other dogs... YOU WILL LOSE! Check the conformation for the APBT. Aslo, most of them in the dog shows are young dogs as well as gamebred (do you even know what that means?).

You know what, I had a nice long post for you to read but 1, I dont think you are reading everything 2,nothing will ever help you see the light and 3, you are probably the most ignorant pit owner I have ever seen, and I have seen a lot (including some of the "owners" on some of the message boards I post on). Take the "probably" out of my #3.

This is the last time I am posting to Hollywoods IGNORANT A**. :boom:
You are more of a curr than your dogs, most likely, are, as I am sure a responsible/real breeder of APBTs would never let you get one of their dogs. I cant tell you enough times how much of an idiot you are. You will soon find out if you continue to do what you are doing. Hope they slap a FAT lawsuit on your butt.

[Aroura]

That was a great post before Goo, pity Hollywood probably wont even acknowledge it!!!
Like Malamum, I would like to know where I went wrong with Lily? If you can tell me that I will drop the argument and realise that you really do know what you are talking about. But you can't tell me, can you? Thats because when she was born she was predispositioned to dog aggression - just like your boys most probably are, only you are too ignorant to see that, aren't you?
We can all see that, you just only want to see what you are willing to believe and when your boys are on the front page of the paper for killing a familys beloved dog and your dogs are waiting to be put down, who will you blame then? You will only have yourself to blame, because you can't say we didn't warn you.

[DogPaddle]

JMHO

Kavik a BC herds/chases my cats - he does not harm them and sometimes the taunt him into it but unless I monitor him he will do it despite all the training I, the breeder, and our obedience trainer[b]s[/b] could come up with and extensive cat socialization. This is because BCs have a strong [i][color=orange]tendency[/color][/i] to herd/chase due to years of breeding for this trait. The [i][color=brown]tendency[/color][/i] varies in intensity from dog to dog and some don't do it but most do. For info on inbred desire to herd see [url]http://www.bcrescue.org/book/bordercollie.html[/url] and [url]http://www.bcrescue.org/cats.html[/url] from one of the most prominent BC rescue/adoption groups.

Further:
The senior adoption agent here will not adopt Chows out to households with cats because of their [i][color=orange]tendancy[/color][/i] to attack cats. Not all do it but many will if unmonitored.
An Afghan Hound breeder I have talked too will not sell pups to people who do not have a yard with secure, complete 5ft or higher fencing, preferably privacy fencing due to the Afghan's [i][color=brown]tendancy[/color][/i] to not be able to resist giving chase to moving animals (and their ability to jump surprisingly well) because they are sight hounds.

These dogs find it as difficult to resist these [i][color=orange]tendencies[/color][/i] as you would to resist:
blushing when embarrassed
yawning when you see another yawn
smiling (barring your teeth) when another person smiles at you
True we can resist these [color=brown][i]tendencies[/i][/color] but some people find it harder than others and some never can resist. And humans pride ourselves on our control of our "baser instincts" ie our [b]kneejerk reactions[/b]. Dogs do not have the same cognative ability to as easily resist these [b]kneejerk reactions [/b]or [i][color=orange]tendencies[/color][/i]. [color=brown]It's [b]not[/b] an [i]absolute[/i] its a [i]commonality[/i].[/color]
No one thinks the dog or owner is bad because of it, it's just something to be prepared for when/if it occurs. Unfortunately people do tend to think the dog and owner are bad when pit bull breeds do give in to these [b]kneejerk[/b] [i][color=orange]tendencies[/color][/i] and that is probably [b]because dogs get hurt and dogs get killed[/b]. It may not be fair but if anything goes wrong the pit takes the wrap. [color=violet]If you're not concerned about other's dogs at the very least protect your boys from becoming victims of a misunderstanding.[/color]

[Guest Anonymous]

Oh, and another question I would just like to ask - how in the world does such a bonehead expect to properly train and socialise his dogs when he quite clearly doesn't even know anything about the breed, or in fact, dogs in general? :roll:

[Guest Anonymous]

I have never pointed a finger at anyone saying they have not done a good job with their dogs. It's you who assume such things by reading what I wrote. I don't know what you have done and never will. I am no expert at anything. I am still learning. I can only speak for my own dogs. My boys are the way they are because of how I have trained them.

Sure I know the risks with a Pitbull dog. Sure they can be agressive with other dogs. Just because my dogs have not (and hopefully will never show dog agression) doesn't mean they won't. I know this to be a fact. That they could possibly one day be dog agressive.

My whole point is some of you people jump on your band wagon when I come on here just to say Hollywood & Hercules are acting well still. I would think you would say more encouraging things. There is no reason for anyone to always give me a lecture on pitbull dog agression.

I really don't appreciate some people being insensitive with insults. Now thats what I call People with People Agression. Although you are meaningless to me because I don't actually know you guys.

I have been working in Jail as a Correctional Officer for many years. I wouldn't expect some of you to act like disrespectful people. If someone came on the board with stories about their APBT behaving, I would rather encourage them, if they already know the possible dangers that come with a pitbull dog.

You know I went to the dog park today. 7 different dogs were there. Lab to minature poodle to mixes. I was speaking to a lady who was a breeder for 25 years for labs, who also has had alot of dealing with pitbulls and mixes of the pit. She said she trusted a pit more than she would a chow chow dog. She had recently recieved 4 pitbulls that were tried in school for the deaf. Now 3 past. She said these dogs have to be able to go anywhere and behave with anyone or dog they come into contact with. She said it is not just the gene that determines behavior, but it is the training and socialization of the APBT that makes it an all around great dog.

Again I already know the potential and the power of the great APBT. I know what can happen. I know they were breed initially for pitfights. I used to have a Pit (Mason) that had been abused by a previous owner. Through love, caring, training, socialization and medicine he became much better after a couple of years. Mason was not perfect, but he was a great deal better. And by the way, he was never off a leash outside. I think because of my experiences with Mason, I have become a better pitbull owner. I have become over cautious and protective of Hollywood & Hercules. They are watched continually. Always looking for any signs of dog agression. If I were an expert I would know all about this dog, but I am not an expert. I say that because in life there is always room for more knowledge.

If your dog is dog agressive that's your business. And if your dog is not dog agressive that your business too. Good luck on either account.

Respectfully,
-Hollywood

P.S. I have never meant to insult or demean anyone or anyone's dog.

[abker17]

I've been following this thread, and I just want to say, thank you for u're last post Hollywood. In u're last post u were not mad, did not make any rude comments, and actually it seems as if u understand our point of view a little better. I'm hoping that we can drop this topic soon, we've all heard each others point of views, and I think it's time to let it go. :)

[Aroura]

[quote name='Hollywood']My whole point is some of you people jump on your band wagon when I come on here just to say Hollywood & Hercules are acting well still. I would think you would say more encouraging things. There is no reason for anyone to always give me a lecture on pitbull dog agression.[/quote]

Hollywood, I for one did say more encouraging things, you just chose not to listen, which is probably the reason why most of us did get pissed off in the end - because you disreguarded the positive encouragement we gave you and simply chose to retaliate at the rest, the information that we researched and only posted to help you and your dogs.
Like i said, arrange play times with dogs you and your boys know, go to dog training and socialise them on lead, but for heavens sake, don't put other family pets at risk because you are doing what you beleive is right. Look at the facts, you said yourself, that you are still learning, if that is the case please stop putting other lives at risk while you learn. I couldn't comprehend how upset I would be if either of my dogs was to die simply because someone else was "still learning". Especially at this age, right up until they are 3 years old and beyond, you should keep them on lead when ever meeting any new dog, and watched carefully when playing with those they do know.
Please listen and take note, we are only trying to help you!!!!

[DogPaddle]

I'm with you Abker.

[Guest Anonymous]

As far as DOG FANCY is concerned I was just looking to see what type of pitbull people are there. Besides what is it of your business anyway. I am looking for people with more of a positive approach. If it's not there then I'll look somewhere else.

[Aroura]

But Hollywood, we ARE being positive!!! If saying something straight from your heart with all the best intentions is being positive then I can't see that anyone here is not being positive!
Look Hollywood, I can see that you aren't going to stop taking your dogs to the dog park just because of some stupid facts that have been proven by millions of dogs, so please listen up now!
I have to say that I am an extremely strong beleiver in socialisation, no matter what type of dog is in question, but with certain breeds particular care has to be taken - you know that though, you said so yourself and I respect that.
If you still must take your dogs to the park may I make a few suggestions to minimise the risk?
I hope that deep down you do know that your boys might suddenly snap and the potential damage they could do to another dog. If you take them to the off lead park only have one off at a time. I know that sounds like something you wont want to do, I wouldn't want to take my dogs to the park and only have one of them off lead at a time! But, just in that chance that a fight does break out you wont have an uncontrolable all out brawl to break up with multiple dogs, also because a fight is much less likely to break out in the first place if only one dog is running free. I know with Lily that she is MUCH more socialable when the other dogs aren't around, having another dog from their "pack" only makes them more confident and more likely to get into a fight in the first place. Also, whenever meeting a new dog, have your boy (which ever one you chose to take to the park on that day) on the lead. I took Lily to the dog park today, it is basically isolated so I took her there to do some off lead training. However, when a dog did arrive I put her on the lead, if it was the type of dog she would not attack (submissive, younger etc) and play was innitiated I would talk to the owner and ONLY THEN would I let her off... I am not one to take chances. I also didn't have my other dogs there and there were no other dogs around at the time. Letting dogs meet willy nilly is a recipe for disaster, some dogs just dont click and if one of your dogs was to meet a dog they simply didn't like the look of it could wind up very messy. See, the fact that they have never been in a fight before is probably not a good thing in a way. Until you know the body language of your particular dog you can't tell if it is even going to get into a fight, and unfortunatly for you and your boys, a first fight for them may be their last.
Another thing, PLEASE DESEX YOUR BOYS ASAP!!! You cannot risk to wait another day, every single day that passes your boys are that much closer to becoming aggressive due to hormones. Don't put it off, call your vet TODAY! They are at that age that if not desexed within the next month things may indeed get very nasty.
Also, if you aren't already, take your boys to training, get into agility, do as many fun, socialable activitys with your dogs as you can - this way you can also socialise them with a variety of dogs in a controlled environment.
I can't think of anything else at the moment, but will let you know if I do. Please do everything I just said, remember we are only here to help you, this is a dog forum and dogs are our lives so of course we only want whats best for your dogs :wink:

[ellieangel]

Aroura you are such an :angel:

[Aroura]

Oh Ellie, thankyou - now I'm speechless :oops: :lol:

[Rowie-the-Pooh]

Hollywood,

I'm not going to give negative comments about you/your pits, so please listen.

Dogomania is what we call a [b]PUBLIC[/b] forum... public forums are for viocing your different opinions, you have the right to say anything you want, except rude things (i.g.WHY DON'T YOU PEOPLE PROVE IT BY COPYING AND PASTING YOUR IMPERICAL EVIDENCE ON HERE FROM A SCIENTICFIC SOURCE OR SHUT UP ALREADY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!). All us members have been doing is viocing our opinions, and showing your OUR point of view. Nobody here has said anything negative about you or your dogs, you are the one saying that we did. YOU are only hearing what you want to hear. That is too bad because the members here have alot information that will help you, sadly, you do not want to hear.

Please do not go on saying Dogomania is a negative board, because we are not. We are merely viocing our opinions. If you don't like that, just leave. No one is stoping you, nor do we have the power to. You don't like us, just leave. We all have a different opinion about what is right for a pit bull, you disagree, start a fight, then say we are talking negativly? That doesn't sound right. So, if you do not like us, leave.

I for one think Gooey had ALL THE RIGHT IN THE WORLD to say what she said, she was viocing her opinion, that is what this board is for.

I hope you understand, if you don't, just leave and stop stressing the board, and find another board that will agree with you. It is that simple. :wink:

-Rowie-the-Pooh