Hello I...

[Aroura]

Hollywood, I would like to say that its great to hear that you are socialising your dogs and that they are going well BUT everyone here does have a point and they are not having a go at either you or your dogs but are trying to help you by preventing a tragedy that we could all do without.
Socialisation is vital for all dogs, but when you are working with a potential time bomb just waiting to go off you should get your prioritys straight! Take the dogs to training, that way they can socialise on lead in a controlled environment.
Having two dogs only makes matters worse. Not only do numbers give that "pack mentality" which leads to dogs becoming more likely to attack, but, if one was to attack the other would, under any circumstances, join the fight and together there is a high probability that they would kill the other dog. I don't know many dogs that, if attacked by another dog, would simply back down or run away. If another dog were to challange one of yours and they both joined into the fight what would happen? Which dog would the media claim was the instigator? Yours of course!!! And how would that help the breed? It wouldn't, the headlines "Two Pit Bulls Kill Family Dog" would say it all. Is that what you want?
Honestly, we are not trying to attack you, we are trying to help you.

[Guest Anonymous]

[u][b]EVERYONE ON HERE IS A "SELF-PROCLAIMED PITBULL EXPERT" INCLUDING MYSELF. THERE IS NO ONE ON THIS BOARD WHO IS A CETIFIED PITBULL EXPERT WIH AY REAL CREDENTIALS. IVE IT A BREAK PEOPLE, RELAX A BIT![/b][/u]

[meehs]

Why do people even bother posting when they haven't even read the other posts in the thread?

The entire post by Hollywood was already posted here in this SAME THREAD!!!

Hollywood: Do you even bother to read the other posts before you respond???

I for one give up! How can you have a discussion with someone who doesn't even read the posts?

[Guest Anonymous]

Perhaps your right Hollywood. And the hundreds of APBT yards and breeders are wrong. I bet the person who wrote that article doesnt even have an apbt, noone that really knows the breed would make such assenine statements. As previously stated how do you explain 2 dogs that have been raised together since puppyhood suddenly turning and trying to kill each other. or a puppy that is heavily socialized its entire life only to become dog aggressive at maturity, its called heritage, bred in instinct, and for most of us common damn sense. You cant tell me that you honestly put stock into that article. Its one thing for someone that doesnt know any better to endanger thier dogs with a bad situation. But when you have been told many times sited specific examples and even given had evidence and fact as to why its a bad idea, and you find some iffy article written almost entirely based on one big untruth as your case, thats just a bad deal. It is obvious to me that the only way you are going to see reason is when your dogs actually do turn on, I just hope that you are as vigilant as you claim to be. I would reall yhate to have to read the post that says there was an accident. This is one episode where I really dont want to be able to say "we told you so".

You need to grab a book, any book by anyone with real knowledge of the breed, NOT just someone who is saying what you want to hear. let the truth be your guide.

[Guest Anonymous]

Opinions, opinions and opinions is always referred to, when info is given from a different point or perspective. Of course you would disagree, it goes against your diverse treachings. Besides everything stated here on this board is nothing but a bunch of OPINIONS. I can see the Pit owners are just like their dogs- except thay are owner aggressive and game, they never give up and are full of energy to keep on going. This is all become such a joke, mainly because we all believe our own words to be the absolute truth and all others who are a posed are wrong.

[b]When someone says they are an expert, that means they cannot learn anymore, they know it all, already.

-Hollywood Hulk Hogan[/b]

[Guest Anonymous]

I see you are a lot like your dogs too.... Bull-headed!!
An opinion is not an opinion if is hows up in every breed based book in exsistence. if everyone that has ever done any research into the breed comes to the same conclusion that screams fact to a intelligent person, no i will not stoop to assumption or name calling.... i apologize. How can you really argue with years of research and solid based facts?

1. Pit bulls are from a fighting background.

2. Originally used in animal-baiting the atual pit bull came about when the "sport" was outlawed. the need to match dog verses dog led to the decrease in size of the original bulldogs.

3. ALL pit bull breed books, magazines, and articles make reference to the dog-aggressive nature of the breed.

4. Not all APBTs are dog aggressive, but more are than are not. Think of it like you have two black dogs when they are bred all of the puppies are black except one. that one would represent the likely hood of a APBT not being aggressive; its not impossible its just rare.

5. this one you should know... You cannot train out a hundred years of gut instinct. some things dogs do just because they have to can you take a male dog and train him not to lift his leg when he pees? Its not a learned behavior, at acertain point in its life the dog just lifted his leg, and at some point if MOST APBTs lives they just dont play well with other dogs.

I took the time to read that article and i wouldnt use it to line a whelping box. Its funny to me that someone would put thier name on that thing and even attempt to call it true. This is someone that doesnt know the history using off-logic to make ludacris comments.

It really worries me that you buy into that. Are you sure you have selected the right breed of dog?

[gooeydog]

You manage to find ONE source of information written by someone who has who knows how much experience with the breed to back up your opinion... and expect people to ignore the HUNDREDS of sources from CREDIBLE sources that say differently. How many pit bulls have these people rescued? Owned from puppyhood into adulthood (at least age 3)? Trained, even?

Here's some of the sources I was referring to:


A page written by an ACO who's titled multiple pit bulls in various sports, and has been involved in the breed for years.... [url]http://www.workingpitbull.com/aboutpits.htm[/url]

Another by BADRAP (they've rescued hundreds of "pit bulls", and do numerous breed education programs)
[url]http://www.badrap.org/rescue/myths.cfm[/url]

And one on dogparks...
[url]http://www.badrap.org/rescue/dogpark.cfm[/url]

Another page on a good APBT info site written by people with years of APBT ownership (the middle part describes what happened during a fight, so some may want to avoid it, but the top few paragraphs and the stuff in the pink box is good)...
[url]http://www.realpitbull.com/fight.html[/url]

More...
[url]http://www.realpitbull.com/agg.html[/url]

A post on another board describing what happened to a pit bull who got into a minor scuffle at a dogpark...
[url]http://pub177.ezboard.com/fdogcommunityfrm1.showMessage?topicID=3908.topic[/url]

[Guest Anonymous]

Hey:

If the APBT has the potential for a powerful fight with other dogs and people must keep them away from other dogs just in case of a dog fight, then why would anyone in their right mind want one. These dogs spell absolute danger then. Why even have the breed existing if there is that extreme fighting potential in the genes. Why take the chance of being an outcast on the media.

Everyone believed the world was flat at one time in history. It took one person's insights to change it.

People said man would never walk on the moon and look they did.

People change with education not with stagnation.

It takes time to develope a well behaved dog(s). Perhaps some people don't have the time for the amount of socialization required for the American Pitbull Terrier. If some people don't have the time for proper socialization, I do understand why their dog(s) might tend to lean towards being dog agressive. That's a resonable conclusion and it's good that they don't take them places that might endanger them and other dogs. They are doing the American Pitbull justice by not having them around other dogs, so no negative Pitbull behavior is seen in public. I solute you. I like everyone to know if my two Rednose Boys Hollywood & Hercules ever display that negative type of behavior, I certainly will never ever take them places where they could be a problem to anyone.

[Malamum]

[quote]It takes time to develope a well behaved dog(s). Perhaps some people don't have the time for the amount of socialization required for the American Pitbull Terrier. If some people don't have the time for proper socialization, I do understand why their dog(s) might tend to lean towards being dog agressive.[/quote]

Hollywood, I've got to say that I disagree at your comments above and your assumption that if a dog is dog aggressive it is the owner

[Guest Anonymous]

I dont know what I am talking about. I have only been dealing with this breed....oh.... MY ENTIRE LIFE!! I am not someone who only owns one or two of these dogs. I know this breed like I know the back of my hand. I have dealt with thousands (literally) of APBTs.

Aroura
[quote]And how would that help the breed? It wouldn't, the headlines "Two Pit Bulls Kill Family Dog" would say it all. Is that what you want?
[/quote]

This is how it is going to end for you, Hollywood, if you continue to take your dogs to an off leash dog park. You are going to lose both of your dogs.

An APBT ready for a fight or even fighting does not raise their hackles, they dont growl. What they do is wag their tails as hard as they can. If you think you can tell when they are ready to go, well, your experience with the two pits you have must have taught you more than the thousands I have had experience with.

If you believe the BS information you copied and pasted, and the information from people who have no experience with APBTs, well, you are the perfect example of someone who shouldnt own this wonderful breed. Get rid of your pits and go buy a lab or golden or something you can take to the dogpark.

I will (sarcastically) thank you in advance for making things easier for the humaniacs and for adding to the bite stats of my breed.
I am sorry to everyone for the name calling but, Hollywood, you are an IDIOT.

[Aroura]

I agree 100% with Malamum, all the training and socialisation in the world does not neccissarilly stop a dog from becoming aggressive - wouldn't it be a perfect world if that were the case? Oh I know this for a fact by the way, after my Boxer went through months of quite serious dog aggression problems that thankfully she is getting over now. Ok, imagine the first time she showed these problems, lets change the picture a little bit. Now instead of one Boxer at dog training, on a lead, lets say there are two Pits, off lead, instead. Now everything is fine and dandy, you have never had a problem before, therefore you never will. Right? Wrong!!!! Ok, so these dogs are playing happilly, tails wagging like always when suddenly something terrible and completely unforseen happens.... a massive fight breaks out! So picture this, instead of a boxer onlead we now have two pits with that fighting type body that they have been bred for for countless generations on top of another dog, hey, maybe the owner is even too far away or two scared to help break up the fight, so what are you going to do? Pull two psycho Pits out of an all out fight? Hey, if your dogs have all always been so perfect, how would you even know how to break up a fight? Let alone one with three dogs, two being one of the most toughest dogs known to mankind. Hey, just to make it more interesting, what if the other dog just happend to be a Pit who's owner thought their dog would be "ok" at the park, after all, they've never had any problems before, have they?
I hope you are really listening to this, because this one day may well be you, what are you going to do then?
I just hate when people only listen to what they want to hear!!! :evil:

[Guest Anonymous]

IGNORANCE. YOU PEOPLE THINK YOU ARE THE BE ALL AND END ALL AND HAVE ALL SUPERIOR KNOWLEDGE ABOUT DOGS, ESPECIALLY THE pitbull. IGNORANCE IS BLISSFULL THINKING. YOU PEOPLE ARE DEFINATELY UN-TRAINABLE. PERHAPS A REFLECTION OF YOUR SUPERIOR TARINING SKILLS FOR YOUR DOG. JUST MY OPINION ON YOU PEOPLE.

YOU MUST ADMIT THOUGH THIS HAS BEEN A SOMEWHAT ENTERTAINING THREAD. STILL YOU PEOPLE ARE FULL OF KNOWLEDGE AND CANNOT FIT ANOTHETR OUNCE OF INFO IN YOUR HEADS.

[Guest Anonymous]

Hollywood, you just made the perfect post to yourself. You are the only one not taking in any of the advice given to you on this thread. You are the only one thinking you know everything and are correct about it. Twenty people are wrong while you are correct?!
Like I said earlier... You honestly think your experience with two dogs has given you more information about this breed than my experience with thousands of them. The ignorance is coming from your end of the wire. Why dont you at least try reading some of the information and posts that have been put up here. I dont even think you are reading any of them.

[Guest roo]

:o :o :o
how many times have we had this topic :lol:

Hmmmm is a knowlegdable APBT opwner breeder.
gooey aways says it as it is ( a caring and responsible APBT owner


ok.................... Hollywood you may not like what you hear :-?

Your dogs may be different from others
But, and a big but here :lol: you have been forewarned.
if anything untoward happens please let us know.
we all care, dogs is dogs no matter what :drinking: :drinking: :drinking:

[Guest Anonymous]

SINCE SOME OF YOU CANNOT CONTROL YOUR PITBULL'S BEHAVIOR THROUGH PROPER TRAINING, YOU ARE NO BETTER THAN THOSE OUT THERE THAT EXPLOIT THIS MAGNIFCANT DOG'S POWER AND USE IT TO ENDANGER PEOPLE AND OTHER DOGS. CARE, CUSTODY AND CONTROL IS WHAT IS NEEDED HERE. IF YOUR PIT IS DOG AGRESSIVE THEN IT IS UN-TRAINED AND YOU HAVE MADE THE PIT NO BETTER THAN WHAT THE GENERAL PUBLIC TGHINKS ALREADY. YOU HAVE REINFORCED THE SCAR PITS HAVE ON SOCIETY. WHICH PUTS YOUR UN-TRAINED AGRESSIVE PIT IN THE VERY SAME CATAGORY AS THE DRUG DEALER'S PITBULLS IN THE GENERAL PUBLIC'S EYES. HOW VERY SAD AND TEARFUL FOR THIS WONDERFUL BREED.

[Guest Anonymous]

You can't train the urge to run out of a greyhound.
You can't train the urge to herd out of a herding dog.
You can't train the urge to retrieve out of a retriever.
You can't train the urge to pull out of a sled dog.
You can't train the urge to point out of a pointer.

Should I go on?

Yes, you [b]can[/b] train your dog, regardless of breed, to [b]suppress[/b] an urge that has been bred into them for hundreds (or in some cases, thousands) of years. However, to suppress an urge [b]does not mean[/b] that the dog will not give in to it under any circumstances.

Bully breed owners with a dangerous half-knowledge are just as much at fault for adding to their bad reputation as the totally ignorant, irresponsible ones, which is very sad.[/b]

[Horsefeathers!]

I can't help but wonder where I went wrong then. I have a (usually) wonderful Pit Bull who has been a member of our family since she was 4-5 weeks old. She has been properly socialized, behaves well in public, could easily pass the Delta Society therapy dog test as well as CGC and I'm sure many others. No problems on a leash, no problems with people in public (at home is a different story) and was raised in a house with 7 other dogs of varying breeds as well as cats. She has been spayed since she was about a year old. At about 2 years old, she began displaying aggressive tendencies toward our Lab. We attributed it to her challenging him since he is bigger than she is. As time has passed, she has become increasingly unpredictable and volatile in her attacks. The thing is she is USUALLY very well mannered around our other dogs. However, when she "snaps," she means it and would cheerfully rip which ever dog she's after to bits. For this reason, we never ever ever trust her unattended with other dogs. Even though I have no problem with her in public and she is a perfect little lady on leash, I know that she would gladly take down any other dog she perceived as challenging her (think of some of these small terriers who just love to run wiv da big dogs). Especially a bitch. She is extremely bitch aggressive. She very rarely gives blatant warnings such as growling, raised hackles or any of that. She just goes. We have had bloodwork and examinations out the wazoo to try to see if something physical was going on (pain? thyroid disorder?), but could find nothing out of the ordinary. At this time, she is medicated just to try to help keep her a bit more mellow and is always, at all times, under extreme supervision when with the other dogs. Again, she is USUALLY very good with them. I, too, always thought that enough love, care and training would make a "good" dog of any dog. If I'd known then what I know now, I honestly would have probably left my Penny where she was (or maybe not), but all I saw was a young pup who needed a home, abandoned by the bred-to-death mother.


I am certainly not claiming to be a Pit Bull expert and I truly do want to learn more because since our ordeal with Penny, I have read and read and researched and read some more to try to learn. If someone knows something else I need to know, please pass it along. If it truly is training and socialization ONLY that makes or breaks a dog, why is my Pit Bull still dog aggressive? I do now believe that it IS a genetic predisposition (for lack of a better way to put it) that makes her this way and perhaps a screw loose, but I would LOVE for someone to tell me how *I* could have influenced her behavior better if her aggression problems are indeed a result of my negligence.:(

[gooeydog]

[quote name='THE BIG GUEST']SINCE SOME OF YOU CANNOT CONTROL YOUR PITBULL'S BEHAVIOR THROUGH PROPER TRAINING, YOU ARE NO BETTER THAN THOSE OUT THERE THAT EXPLOIT THIS MAGNIFCANT DOG'S POWER AND USE IT TO ENDANGER PEOPLE AND OTHER DOGS. CARE, CUSTODY AND CONTROL IS WHAT IS NEEDED HERE. IF YOUR PIT IS DOG AGRESSIVE THEN IT IS UN-TRAINED AND YOU HAVE MADE THE PIT NO BETTER THAN WHAT THE GENERAL PUBLIC TGHINKS ALREADY. YOU HAVE REINFORCED THE SCAR PITS HAVE ON SOCIETY. WHICH PUTS YOUR UN-TRAINED AGRESSIVE PIT IN THE VERY SAME CATAGORY AS THE DRUG DEALER'S PITBULLS IN THE GENERAL PUBLIC'S EYES. HOW VERY SAD AND TEARFUL FOR THIS WONDERFUL BREED.[/quote]

Ahh, yes... My pit bulls are SOOO out of control and untrained that one (dog aggressive, too) has been invited to be in a commercial for the training school we've been going to classes at. Not to mention the demonstration she was in at a fair that took place over the 4th of July weekend... hundreds of people watching who came up to visit with her afterwards, tons of positive PR. What do you do with YOUR dogs? (Aside from endangering the breed's image, your own dogs, and other peoples' pets by refusing to take precautions that should be taken with the breed of dog you've chosen to own.) What have YOU done to change the public's perception of this breed? I'm sure that with such well trained, well behaved, under control dogs, and such a competent owner, it should be NO problem whatsoever to get a couple obedience titles, a therapy dog certification, or even just a CGC or TT certification.... let's see it.

[Guest Anonymous]

[b]SO THERE IS A SUPER GENE IN THE AMERICAN PITBULL TERRIER, WHICH IS ON A HAIR TRIGGER THAT MAKES THE DOG AGRESSIVE????

WHY DON'T YOU PEOPLE PROVE IT BY COPYING AND PASTING YOUR IMPERICAL EVIDENCE ON HERE FROM A SCIENTICFIC SOURCE OR SHUT UP ALREADY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :D :D :D [/b]

[Horsefeathers!]

Thanks. That cleared it right up for me. ? :-? ?

[yellowlabsrule]

[quote name='Hollywood'][b]SO THERE IS A SUPER GENE IN THE AMERICAN PITBULL TERRIER, WHICH IS ON A HAIR TRIGGER THAT MAKES THE DOG AGRESSIVE????

WHY DON'T YOU PEOPLE PROVE IT BY COPYING AND PASTING YOUR IMPERICAL EVIDENCE ON HERE FROM A SCIENTICFIC SOURCE OR SHUT UP ALREADY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :D :D :D [/b][/quote]

:D :D :D ??? Do you enjoy having fights??? :-?

[Malamum]

If Hollywood's ideals on training and dog aggression are correct then like Horsefeathers I too am curious as to what step I missed in Indy's upbrining.

* Good breeder, and parents with excellent temprements: [b]Check[/b]

* Raised in a loving home environment: [b]Check[/b]

* Followed standard alpha training rules: [b]Check[/b]

* Attended puppy training classes: [b]Check[/b]

* Regularly attend dog training classes: [b]Check[/b]

* Reinforce training in our home environment: [b]Check[/b]

* Lots of socialisation as a puppy with various dogs, cats etc..: [b]Check[/b]

* Continue socialisation as he grows older: [b]Check[/b]

* Ensure dog is always in excellent health: [b]Check[/b]

* Feed a good quality food: [b]Check[/b]

Even after doing all of the above my boy just does not always play nice enough with other dogs for me to let him loose in a leash free environment.

Hollywood [u][b]please[/b][/u] enlighten me as to what the magical step is I missed?

Since you are so adamant that any dog that shows [b]any[/b] form of dog aggression is un-trained I am honestly curious as to what I should have done instead.

[Guest Anonymous]

Here you go Hollywood, you asked for it...

[size=6]Bred for health, temperament and physical appearance[/size]
Purebreds have predictable physical characteristics.
Many of their genes are "fixed," For example, all Golden Retrievers have fixed genes for medium/large size, floppy ears and golden color. It is the pairing of dogs with such genes that keeps a breed looking like it should over many generations. If dogs were allowed to mate and nature to take its course, all dog breeds would evolve to look alike, probably much like the wolf.

When you see a purebred puppy, you have a good idea of what he will look like as an adult.

The breeder matters. Only skilled breeders with some knowledge of genetics can predict how one dog's genes will combine with another's. Responsible breeders use their skill and knowledge of genetics, not only to breed generations of dogs that look like the written standard for the breed, and more importantly, to pair dogs together that are likely to produce genetically sound, healthy dogs with temperaments typical of their breed.

[color=red]In addition to physical appearance, many dogs come with tendencies or working behaviors specific to their breed. In purebreds, these tendencies are predictable -- not so in mixed breeds.
To some extent, temperament is also fixed ("programmed" or "hardwired") into the genes of purebred dogs.[/color]
Most breeds were developed for working purposes -- herding sheep, hunting birds or rabbits, killing rats, guarding estates, pulling sleds. Working behaviors include:

chasing things that move (other animals, running children, bikes and cars)
nipping at things that move
barking at things that move
grabbing smaller animals as though they're prey
digging holes in the ground
acting suspiciously or threateningly toward strangers
baying and howling
putting their nose to the ground and running away
making their own decisions and ignoring your commands
[color=red]Before you decide on a breed, be sure you know its behavior traits and what it was developed to do. It will help ensure you find the best match for your family and lifestyle. [/color]
Another one... [url]http://www.asca.org/Education/Advanced/bathwater.htm[/url]
If you would like to see more, just ask.

[color=#444444][/color]

[gooeydog]

This is off the UKC site ( [url]http://www.UKCdogs.org[/url] ) , on the APBT page (and I would hope that you believe they know the characteristics of a breed they recognize):

"[u]Characteristics [/u]

The essential characteristics of the American Pit Bull Terrier are strength, confidence, and zest for life. This breed is eager to please and brimming over with enthusiasm. [b]APBTs make excellent family companions and have always been noted for their love of children[/b]. Because [b]most APBTs exhibit some level of dog aggression [/b]and because of its powerful physique, the APBT requires an owner who will carefully socialize and obedience train the dog. The breed's natural agility makes it one of the most capable canine climbers so good fencing is a must for this breed. The APBT is not the best choice for a guard dog since they are extremely friendly, even with strangers. Aggressive behavior toward humans is uncharacteristic of the breed and highly undesirable. This breed does very well in performance events because of its high level of intelligence and its willingness to work.
The American Pit Bull Terrier has always been capable of doing a wide variety of jobs so exaggerations or faults should be penalized in proportion to how much they interfere with the dog's versatility. "

and

"Note: Although [b]some level of dog aggression is characteristic of this breed[/b], handlers will be expected to comply with U.K.C. policy regarding dog temperament at U.K.C. events. "


And here's something else that should satisfy your craving for proof (not going to C&P, you can go to the link if you're really that interested in it)...
[url]http://americanpitbullterrier.org/apbt_genetics.htm[/url]
Pay special attention to the "What seperates the APBT from the German Shepherd" section and the "The first step of the primer on genetics" section. The rest is also very good at describing how traits are passed on, and it appears that there will eventually be something on there addressing "the genetics of temperament and aggression".

[Aroura]

We've all hear the saying "YOU CAN LEAD A FOOL TO WISDOM BUT YOU CAN'T MAKE HIM THINK"... well, quite obviously Hollywood is a classic example of this!

Hollywood, grow up. I would have to strongly agree with what someone said before, that you are an IDIOT!!! You are wasting all of our time on here and quite honestly I've got better things to do than try to talk some sense into someone who isn't even listening, its like talking to a brick wall. I know you havn't been reading anyones posts, you've proved this to us all by continually asking questions that have already been answered like 1000 times over. Its people like you who go about giving this lovely breed a bad name. You don't even care, do you? Just so long as you can have it your way. How old are you? I've met 10 year olds who show a great deal more maturatity than you probably ever will. I've tried to reason with you and actually give valid reasons for what I am saying but you aren't even bothering to read the posts, you are just coming here to stir things up.
You are a troll.
I'm sure every body here would have to agree that they wouldn't even waste their time talking to you, seeing as you obviously aren't listening, if it wasn't in their hearts to do whats best for the breed, which you quite clearly don't give a shit about!