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Guest Anonymous

Newfiemom,
I wasn’t aware I had to give you my resume and tell you every detail of my life's story. I haven’t given any titles, because they mean nothing to me. All it means is that the dog looks good and it won a beauty contest. It doesn’t tell you a thing about its genetic background, or temperaments. You can have a top winning dog that is a genetic mess. It is enough for you to know that my dogs are champions or the offspring of ones. Not that it matter to me much, but that is what people like to see because of what people like you tell them. I don’t just throw two dogs together and hope for the best. I selectively breed every dog I have to produce the best dogs I can with both confirmation and temperament in mind. I only care about the title because it increased the value of their pups. It is unfortunate that it is this way, but that is a fact.

If your mother made $10,000-$15,000 per litter, how the hell can you say she did not profited from it? Do the math, It doesn’t add up. Unless her kennels were gold plated or her dogs had so many health problems that required every penny she made, there is no way it cost her that much to breed one litter. If it did, she must be the worst breeder ever and she wouldn’t have kept doing that for 30 years. More likely thou, you have a selective memory and choose to ignore the truth. Ignorance is bliss, and you probably had a very blissful childhood. The fact that you were paying students loans for 15 years and she is still paying her mortgage means nothing. All it means is that she had her priorities in life screwed up and spent the money elsewhere.

Why it was ok for your mom to breed dogs, but is not ok for others.
Please tell me why is it wrong to make money on dogs if I do everything your mom did and somehow had money left over.

What difference does it makes if I have one liter or 10 litters a year?
If I have one litter instead of 10, how will that make me a better breeder?
If all of them get the same high level of care, what difference does it make?
The only differences is that it makes it is easier for you to label me, that is the only difference.

I do OFA for hips and elbows at 2 years, and CERF once a year. I also check heart and eyes of the pups when they are 8 weeks old before I sell them. These are the main problems that my breeds can have so that is what I test for. I know there are other tests, but I never had any problem in the 16 years I have been breeding, and haven’t seen the need for the other tests. I never produced a dog with hip dysplasia, OCD, or anything else that is common to my breed. The main reason I even do the OFA and CERF is because people like to see the certificates and it makes my pups more desirable and easier to sell. I am sure some people here will have a problem with that, but that is the truth.

When you’ll have a government official that can screw up your life for good and take your dogs away if they don’t like what they see dropping in unannounced to check up on you when ever they feel like it because of some A hole on a mission from god, you’ll get paranoid too. I guarantee it. I must admit I am concern about what these twisted individuasl would do when they see that they get no results from the AC. What happens if they decide to take matter into their own hands and “rescue” my dogs? That is a real possibility that many breeders have to live with.

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Guest Anonymous

Kiwi, you had it right the first time.

The reason I stopped showing is because I got disillusioned with the whole dog show scene. The things I witnessed others do to win, and their attitudes really got to me, not to mention the politics that was going on. I have seen people tattooing the noses lips and eyelids of their dogs, coloring their hair, and doing cosmetic surgeries to improve their dogs’ appearance. Even thou this is against the AKC rules, no one seemed to care. I even knew a judge that did that with his own dogs. The gossiping and spreading of unfounded rumors to damage another breeder’s reputation were too common occurrence which I didn’t care for a one bit. Also, many dog show people have a superiority complex and treated others like they were beneath them. I really can’t stand this attitude. Money was often the topic of many conversations. Even thou you hear they all do if for the love of their breed and dogs, money and profit are the main motivation behind a lot of this behavior. I really despise hypocrisy.

The final straw thou was the way I made my first dog a champion which I am not very proud of. After showing my dog for several months with not much success, I met the breeder I bought my dog from at a show. She was somewhat disappointed I did yet get my dog titled and let me in on a little secret. She introduced me to a handler that her expertise was to make dogs champions. She took my dog to dog shows all over the country, until she got her title in a very short time.
I didn’t ask how exactly she did it. I didn’t really want to know. I was just happy I finally had a champion. The euphoria didn’t last long thou when reality started to sink in. I like to think that my dog really deserved it, but what I really think happened is that this woman was connected, knew the “right” judges and got her titled in less then noble ways. After all, this is what she was doing for a living for 20 years and was really good at it. If all it takes to make a dog a champion is pay off some one, then what is the point? I hate hypocrites and snobs, and that is what I was becoming. That whole environment wasn’t agreeing with my conscious so I left. After that, I just cut the middle man and spent the money on dogs that were already champions. Not because I thought they were any better, but because that is what I thought a responsible breeder should be doing, breeding only champion dogs. Needless to say, I no longer believe that.

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Guest Anonymous

K,
When I get attacked, I can’t help but lash back. That is my nature. This is why I do not like to get involved with arguments like this. I knew it will get ugly.

I am all for breeding to improve the breed. No argument there.
My whole point is it can be done AND make some money in the process. When Lucky Chaos said “Responsible breeders only have ONE answer when asked why they breed. To better the breed.” The “ONE” is what bugged me. What is wrong with making money in the process? In fact, if champion dogs wouldn’t have paid for themselves and then some, and make it worth while for the breeders to invest their time and money to show them, many would not be doing it. Now that is a fact.

Btw, no offense, but the opinions on this board are hardly a true representation of the general population’s, which is why I come here. I like to read about ALL the different point of views of those who think differently then I do.

Newfiemom,
However she spent the proceeds from the sale of her pups doesn’t change the fact that she did made money on them. The money she got from them enabled her to pursue her passion. Nothing wrong with that, but money is money. She may have not kept it all, and invested it back into her hobby, but it doesn’t change the fact that she did still profited from it.

If she had more breeding dogs, had more litters and cut back on her expenses, she could have, dare I say it, make a living of her dogs while doing what she loved, which many do. It can be a win win situation when done right.

Btw, how the heck did they come up with those expenses in that link you posted? Most of these figures are no way near real world figures, at least not where I am.

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[quote name='norma']I am in Los Angeles County, California. The county run shelters here have this policy. Dogs go to the highest bidder.

I breed Golden retrievers and Labrador retrievers.
As for why, I wont even try to answer that. I know better then to open that can of worms on this board.[/quote]
I am in Los Angeles as well. I didnt read this entire thread, sorry if I am missing something. Which shelters are you speaking of? I have NEVER seen a shelter have bidding wars for dogs. It's on a first come, first serve basis where I am.
Waaa, waaaa, waaaa. I am so tired of hearing people whining about not showing their dogs due to the politics involved.
That being said, I have seen plenty of dogs winning shows that should not ever have been shown in the first place. I remember a certain so-called well-established Akita breeder giving a BIS to another Akita breeder who happened to be a great friend of hers. This "breeders" lines were well known as having multiple genetic defects. In fact, the winning dog died within months due to a genetic illness.
But, I do think there is something to be said about showing. I like to know that the dog has been poked and prodded by judges without snapping at them under stressful conditions. I agree that just having a CH title doesnt mean much, genetics must be carefully considered as well.
Depending on your location, showing dogs can eat away at any profit you might have had.
If I were to ever get another Akita from a breeder (which is highly unlikely due to the fact that I do some rescue work and am around fabulous keeters needing homes) I know for sure that the breeders I hold in very high-esteem dont make money of their breedings. Perhaps this is due to the fact that they charge $500 for a pet-quality pup and not $1000+ and chose to spend their time driving around to shows.
I dont see a problem with breeders making money provided they are doing all the proper stuff like xrays, checking eyes, doing genetic research, etc.
It just seems hard to make a profit when spending a lot of time driving around, paying for hotels and the such.

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Guest Anonymous

I personally witnessed it at the East Valley shelter. It is the one on Sherman way. I saw 3 people bidding on the same pup. I also heard this from people who experienced it first hand as well. The one I saw was sold for $375 when normaly the adoption cost for a puppy is $50.
If more then one person wants the same dog and they both show up on the morning the dog becomes available, then that is when the bidding takes place.

You can call them up at (888) 452-7381 and ask what happens when two people want the same dog at the same time and see for your self. This is the god honest truth.

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Just mu $.02. Or, okay, $.04.
"A genetic mess" is not going to win a CH. A conformation show is not a "beauty contest", it is a CONFORMATION SHOW. Dogs are shown as an example of fine breeding stock. You would never, I hope, breed a dog that is a "genetic mess" and therefore should not be showing it, either.
Also, why do we even have a breeding area on this board? It just causes trouble.

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[quote name='pyrless']Just mu $.02. Or, okay, $.04.
"A genetic mess" is not going to win a CH. You would never, I hope, breed a dog that is a "genetic mess" and therefore should not be showing it, either.
.[/quote]
Agreed that a dog that is a "genetic mess" should not be shown, but it def. happens. I am not talking about dogs with issues that are obvious to the naked eye. I am talking about dogs coming from lines known to have VKH, among other things. I could not believe the judge had even given this dog a second look, let alone awarded it BIS. Then again, this particular judge is known to continually breed dogs that are manbiters.

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[quote]Also, why do we even have a breeding area on this board? It just causes trouble.[/quote]

I think we're mature enough to handle having a breeding board pyr. :-? Even if we didn't the questions would just get transferred to the All About Dogs section.

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Guest Anonymous

No breeders in their right mind would want to subject them selves to the warm treatment I got here. I knew better before I posted, but against my better judgment I replied which reminded me why I didn’t wanted to in the first place. Not going to make that mistake anymore.

Instead of "Breeding" section, it should be called "Breeder Bashing" section.

Oh well, live and learn I suppose.

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Guest Anonymous

Most of my dogs don’t have any titles. The four that do has Ch. in front of their names, which is all you need to know.
Read what I already posted and you’ll get your answers.

That’s it, I am done with this thread.
One part of my prediction already came true, don’t feel like pushing my luck and have the second part come true as well.

Bye for now.

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I've been on this board for a couple years now, and most of the folks here know that I breed my dogs. I've been invovled in mushing for over 27 years now and have had 3 litters of pups in that time. My dogs are unregistered and untitled, but no-one here has ever "bashed" or flamed me because I've patiently and civilly explained why this is so. I have Alaskan Huskies- they are a non-registered working breed. They are the only breed able to be consistantly competitive in the type of racing that I do. This is not to say that these dogs don't carry extensive and detailed pedigrees- they have few genetic health problems because mushers do not breed for looks, but working ability only. Of the three litters that I've had, some pups were not destined to be good sled dogs, either because of being too big or not having the right attitude. Those pups were sold to recreational mushers or skiiers with a return clause and a spay / neuter agreement. Did I make money? Probably a little, at least enough to screen out the yay-hoos looking for a free puppy and recoup some of the health care costs for their shots, worming and such.
(Don't start bashing now, OK guys? :wink: )

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I don't think you need to worry about bashing. We are aware you weren't breeding for the purpose of making money and we know why your dogs aren't registered. As for titles - your dogs performance on your team is their title - sorta. If they weren't sound and fit I doubt they would be competing.

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[quote name='Pumpkin the musher']I've been on this board for a couple years now, and most of the folks here know that I breed my dogs. I've been invovled in mushing for over 27 years now and have had 3 litters of pups in that time. My dogs are unregistered and untitled, but no-one here has ever "bashed" or flamed me because I've patiently and civilly explained why this is so. I have Alaskan Huskies- they are a non-registered working breed. They are the only breed able to be consistantly competitive in the type of racing that I do. This is not to say that these dogs don't carry extensive and detailed pedigrees- they have few genetic health problems because mushers do not breed for looks, but working ability only. Of the three litters that I've had, some pups were not destined to be good sled dogs, either because of being too big or not having the right attitude. Those pups were sold to recreational mushers or skiiers with a return clause and a spay / neuter agreement. Did I make money? Probably a little, at least enough to screen out the yay-hoos looking for a free puppy and recoup some of the health care costs for their shots, worming and such.
(Don't start bashing now, OK guys? :wink: )[/quote]

I consider working dogs to be much more breed worthy then dogs that are ONLY shown, because its proves the dog can do what it was bred to do. Thats different then someone making money off designer breeds. A conformation title is nice, but it only proves the dog looks like the breed standard, not that it can do what it was intended to do.

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There are registered Siberians competing,(A team won the 400 mile Beargrease Marathon 2 years ago- no small feat) but if they were to step into a show ring they would laughed at by the so-called breed standard people. They are tall, rangy and don't have the distinct masks that people equate with Siberians. I know you guys are not going to bash me, i was being a smart-a$$. 8)

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  • 2 weeks later...
Guest Anonymous

Norma may have gone bye bye, but I am still here, for now anyway.

AC are not the problem. Never were, never will be.

The problem is the whackos on a mission from god that take it upon themselves to “rescue” dogs they believe need to be “rescued” and punish those that need to be punished. There were plenty of examples of people like these that threatened to do me harm in the 7 page thread that was deleted where I discussed my breeding practice, so my paranoia is well founded.

The 4th amendment exists for a reason.
To put it in a perspective you can understand, how would you like it if the police would come to search your home and harass you when ever someone with a personal vendetta against you told them you deal drugs from your home, or abuse your kids? If you got noting to hide, what is the problem? You may laugh it off for the first couple of times, but if it happens enough times, I’ll bet you’ll get pissed off sooner or later. Every time the police will show up, there will be a record of it that can and will be eventually taken out of context and used against you. If you tell the same lie enough times, sooner or later some one will eventually believe it. That is the problem.

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Guest Anonymous

[quote name='newfiemom']I want to know what people threatened to do you harm? Did you not do the same thing to me by saying you knew some people who wanted to talk to me? You are way to paranoid!!! May be it's a guilty conscience.[/quote]

Since the thread was deleted I can't name names, but several people expressed the desire to get their hands on me.

I was just making a point of why personal info should never be given in a public forum. It was never meant to be a threat. The fact you took it as such only proves my point. There are a lot of unstable individual out there, why risk it.

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Guest Anonymous

I don’t really care if I am wanted here or not. That is not why I go to boards like these. If you haven’t yet figured out why I am here, and why you’ll never get rid of me no matter how many nicks you ban, then here are few clues for you free of charge.

“Know thy enemy.”
“The enemy of your enemy is your friend.”
“Keep your friends close and your enemies closer.”
“You can discover what your enemy fears most by observing the means he uses to frighten you.”
“It pays to know the enemy - not least because at some time you may have the opportunity to turn him into a friend.“

And finally, if you still haven’t figured it out, here is a quote from a very wise man. He certainly gets it.

“We have learned that terrorist attacks are not caused by the use of strength; they are invited by the perception of weakness. [b]And the surest way to avoid attacks on our own people is to engage the enemy where he lives and plans.[/b] We are fighting that enemy in Iraq and Afghanistan today so that we do not meet him again on our own streets, in our own cities.”

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