Aroura Posted October 9, 2003 Share Posted October 9, 2003 When Puddles and Tessa were desexed we asked the vet to remove their dew claws, when I bought Lily hers had already been removed and we were planning to get Donnas removed at desexing also. I noticed Monties front dew claws were still in tact, but one of the back ones had been removed so emailed Clare (his breeder) asking why. Well the reason for only one of the back ones being removed is actually quite funny, apparently some Papillons are born with their dew claws so small they are impossible to find, so one got missed!!! Its still tiny and even took me a few days to notice, but just for convience I'll get that one removed when he is desexed. As for the front dew claws, she actually left them on for a reason, apparently there is some evidence that dew claws actually do serve a functional purpose, here's an email that was posted in her email list [quote] I share your view that dew claws should be left on. My elder Dalmatian, Kajsa, has her inner toe on both forefeet totally distorted with arthritis. Miraculously, it doesn't seem to cause her any pain. Her favourite sport for the first seven years of her life was chasing after tennis balls in the most dramatic manner possible. I feel that the removal of her dew claws put an extra strain on those toes. But the vast majority of Dalmatian breeders seem to think that only an irresponsible breeder would leave dewclaws on. These are caring people, who would change their minds given evidence that dew claw removal is harmful. But where can one find that evidence? My mind can be made up by looking at my dog's feet, but not all dogs suffer in this way. I have to admit that my feelings about dew claws are just that--irrational feelings--unless I have solid evidence to support the view. So, Chris, if you can point me to some of the research or whatever, I'd be more than happy to direct others to the same information. I've tried web searches, etc. without luck. I just don't know where to look for the information. >>>The best evidence is right there in every dog anatomy book that shows the dewclaw. The dewclaw is attached to 5 (count 'em FIVE) tendons. Tendons are attached to muscles or muscle bundles. So that is 5 muscle bundles in the leg that will atrophy (shrink from not being used) once the dewclaw is cut. Additional evidence comes from the fact that working dogs will get grass and dirt stuck in the dewclaws, indicating that they are being used, and from photos showing the dog's foot on the ground and the dewclaw dug into the ground. The pressures on the dog's foot are the same. If there is no dewclaw there to grip the ground, the pressures will go to the elbow, the other toes, the wrist, the shoulder. I know some other caring people who also remove dewclaws. One of my best dog friends is such. We will just have to agree to disagree. Chris[/quote] So remove or not to remove, that is the question. But what is your answer? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
courtnek Posted October 9, 2003 Share Posted October 9, 2003 yes, they absolutely have a purpose - in a field dog. Dew claws are called that because they give the dog "extra traction" (kinda like radial tires - :lol: ) when they are running on wet ground. The front claws/footpad might slip, but the dew claws, because of their placement, will help the dog to hang on to wet surfaces and not slide. They help prevent slide because they are farther back on the dog, so there is alot of weight applied when the dew claws hit the ground... This is a very common trait in dogs, especially those of hunting breeds. The dew claws started getting removed because the show judges deemed them "unnecessary", but they do serve a purpose in field dogs. Wolves all have dew claws...it allows them to keep their speed up during the chase...and they are called "dew claws" because dew on the ground causes very slippery conditions, something a hunter wants to avoid. Someone removed Laurel's dew claws, and I am NOT happy about it. She was a field dog, why remove the dews? But her rescue mom said it happened before she got her, so she doesnt know why...apparently they dont do it anymore on field dogs... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
courtnek Posted October 9, 2003 Share Posted October 9, 2003 I guess I should add this - for a show dog, they are not necessary. But if you pkan on doing field trials, or agility, I would leave them. They put the dog at a distinct advantage when doing agility - they can round corneres faster than dogs without them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aroura Posted October 9, 2003 Author Share Posted October 9, 2003 [quote name='courtnek']Someone removed Laurel's dew claws, and I am NOT happy about it. She was a field dog, why remove the dews? [/quote] Probably because who ever removed them didn't know any better. I never knew any of this before, and had only heard the side of the story that they should be removed to eliminate the chances of them being torn later. There was a dog at training with a torn dew claw, it was very angry because it was in alot of pain. I guess there's two sides to every story. I'm wondering if the back ones serve the same sort of purpose? I know alot of dogs with hind dew claws that just seem to get in the way and catch on things. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
courtnek Posted October 9, 2003 Share Posted October 9, 2003 yes, they can be torn...and it is painful, which might explain why the handler had them removed. Like I said, they are useful only if the dog is going to be field trialed, or agility run. In a dog that just lays around and doesnt run much, they are a hindrance....they are easily caught on things and torn, cause they kinda stick out a little. To people unaware of their purpose, they seem useless...but an animal who has to hunt for his survival finds them irreplaceable...and in the wild, or the field, they get worn down and dont need any special care. hope that helps.... :D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lucky Chaos Posted October 9, 2003 Share Posted October 9, 2003 I'm not sure about this...all of our dogs have always had dew claws Ialways thought it was too late to remove them when they were fixed. But as for the back ones......I think since dogs aren't supossed to have back dew claws they remove them automatically. Or I always thought they were born without them anyway. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
courtnek Posted October 9, 2003 Share Posted October 9, 2003 depends on the dog. Some only have front dew claws, some have both front and back. Breeding has alot to do with it...My malamute mix had dew clothes on all fours...snow dogs use them for better gripping on ice and snow..that is their purpose... Freebee (lab mix) has none. Laurel (foxhound, and field dog) only had them on the back. I think nature decides, outside of breeding... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StarFox Posted October 9, 2003 Share Posted October 9, 2003 Zebra only has dew claws on his front feet. None on the back. The only time I have ever heard of people removing the dew claws was if they stuck out ( I think some breeds the dew claws stick out more than other breeds). Or if they got torn. I would never think about removing Zebra's dew claws because he uses them so often, for holding on to things, and for running. I feel like front dew claws are like Thumbs on people, I wouldn't know what to do If I didn't have them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
imported_Kat Posted October 9, 2003 Share Posted October 9, 2003 Dew claws are nothing more than a nuisance. They don't serve any extra purpose and with regards to the arthritic dog, they wouldn't have assisted this dog as dew claws don't touch the ground. Front dew claws are ok to keep, providing the dog is wearing them down or having them clipped. Back dewclaws is a big no no. We see so many dogs in work coming in with ripped dew claws, and the dew claw will end up being removed anyway, so why not just have them removed at birth. My Border Collie bitch Meg has front dew claws and they are just as short as her other claws as she is wearing them down continuously on agility equipment, and has never had to have her nails clipped in her life. Thankfully now with selective breeding, dynamics are changing and dew claws on hind paws are becoming less and less on a large majority of breeds. Also its not uncommon especialy with Boxers to only have 1 de claw on a hind paw. There is no rule saying a dog has to be born with a dew claw on both hind paws. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rosebud Posted October 9, 2003 Share Posted October 9, 2003 :-? Dew Claws do serve a purpose in all dogs, whether they are house pets, show dogs or field dogs. The dew claw muscles are connected to the muscles in rest of the feet. This helps the feet to remain compact which in turn gives the dog more speed and endurance. The dew claw also allows the dog to manuever sharp turns and fast stops. Removing the dew claw relaxes this muscle and the dog has to learn how to compensate for it. As far as house dogs, most of them can manage fine without the dew claw and in most cases are actually better off since the risk of injury is not there. In show dogs the removal is strictly cosmetic, however show dogs that do performance events would fair better if they had not be removed. :angel: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nancy B Posted October 9, 2003 Share Posted October 9, 2003 [quote name='courtnek']I guess I should add this - for a show dog, they are not necessary. But if you pkan on doing field trials, or agility, I would leave them. They put the dog at a distinct advantage when doing agility - they can round corneres faster than dogs without them.[/quote] Actually, as far as agility goes, the opinions are divided. Some folks want dew claws and some folks don't. I've seen enough torn ones in agility that I'm firmly in the camp of those who prefer not to have them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aonir Posted October 9, 2003 Share Posted October 9, 2003 I've never heard of this before. Amaya had her dewclaws removed (or something) before we got her. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
atghylin Posted October 9, 2003 Share Posted October 9, 2003 Felix has all four of his dew claws. Until now I thought that it was too late tohave them removed. They don't seem to bother him, I just make sure to check their length often, and cut them back as needed. My mom was very surprised to learn he still had them the first time she saw him. I had always been told that they serve no purpose and should be removed at birth. But now I'm not sure if I should leave them or not. :-? You've all made very good points but I think I would like to do more research until I take my kitty in to see the vet next time when I will talk to him about it. (Felix doesn't need to go until next spring.) Are there any specific web pages I should look at? Or should I just do a general search? Thanks! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peng1zrule Posted October 9, 2003 Share Posted October 9, 2003 I know that hunters and such (and even just competitors) remove the dew claws because they are capable of being ripped off Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
abker17 Posted October 9, 2003 Share Posted October 9, 2003 Wow. :o I never knew that they had a purpose either, this is all new to me. The comment made by Courtnek that they were for field dogs/agility dogs makes sense though. :) When we got Abs, they were removed when she was neutered. The vet said that the nail would grow in a circle and then pierce her skin. I at the time didn't know that I would be training Abby in agility, plus didn't know that they were of any use, so agreed to have them removed. :-? Now I dunno what I shoulda done. I can't remember if they were on her front or back feet though, all I know is they were only on two feet. :-? I'll have to ask around next time I go to an agility trial, and see if any of the competitors left their dog's on. :-? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nancy B Posted October 9, 2003 Share Posted October 9, 2003 [quote name='abker17']I'll have to ask around next time I go to an agility trial, and see if any of the competitors left their dog's on. :-?[/quote] As I said, some agility folks prefer to keep the dew claws (thinking they serve a purpose) and some remove them. I didn't have a choice with either of my dogs since the dew claws were done at 5 days old along with their tails but, if I ever did have a choice, I would choose removal. I have seen quite a few dew claws ripped when doing agility. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Anonymous Posted October 9, 2003 Share Posted October 9, 2003 when i adopted dresden at four months she had all four dew claws, all of our previous dogs had their front but none ever had their rear dewclaws.....i read up on it and decided that i did not want to risk them getting torn off or having worse surgery so i opted to have them removed by my vet. just my two cents, she's a maniac and i did not want to risk anything......i've never had a problem with front dew claws and never have had them removed on any of our dogs, but our dogs wern't in agility or anything like that :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carolk9s Posted October 9, 2003 Share Posted October 9, 2003 Jesse has no dewclaws, was very competitive and fast in agility. Brittany has front dews, was pokey and just wanted to hang out with the ring crew. Candy has front dews, she can be blazing fast (when she chooses) cuts corners like a knife and so far no problems associated with her dewclaws. I have noticed both girls will roll onto their backs and hold a toy in their paws, utilizing the front dews, and play with the toy. Jesse has never done this but I suspect it is more his 'boy dog' personality than the fact that he does not have front dews. I've only had one experience with a torn dew, it was on Brittany a few years ago. I kept it clean and used neosporin, she healed up just fine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rosebud Posted October 9, 2003 Share Posted October 9, 2003 :-? Both Sally and Rocket have front dew claws and I don't have any problems with them, they two will hold their toys with them. Both Sally and Rocket's have broken, but not any more than the rest of their nails, and that's only when I let their nails get too long before having them cut. :angel: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
courtnek Posted October 9, 2003 Share Posted October 9, 2003 I thought I mentioned this, but maybe not.... The dew claws have to be maintained, even more so then the regular claws. They only get worn down, because they only touch the ground, when the dog is running at "stride". Running at a speed that stretches both front and back legs to the maximum. When they're running at stride, and rounding sharp corners (picture a wolf pack on the hunt) they put so much weight on the foot that the dew claws touch ground and grip, preventing slide. In the wild, and often in strenuous agility, the dews get worn down naturally, just like the regular claws. If they are not worn down, and not cut, they will curl under, like any other nail, especially in a dog that does not do a lot of running. so if you decide to keep them, you have to keep them trimmed. Alot of the dew claw rips I have seen were on dogs that were not kept trimmed, and if the dog is not running alot and at full stride, they should be kept cut short. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aroura Posted October 10, 2003 Author Share Posted October 10, 2003 I forgot to mention, my friend has scars all up his arms from his dogs dew claws. Another pro on the side of dew claw removal. Donna often leaves me with big long scratches up my arm from her dew claws. Carol, Lily has hers removed and she is always holding toys in her arms while playing on her back. Montie also does it, he's got his claws but he's also a boy, so I guess its probably just the dogs personality! pwrpuff, the dew claw is on the inside of the leg, approximatly a quarter of the way up the leg. You can often see some sort of a mark when they have been removed, Lilys fur changes slightly in direction. Abker, they would have been on her front paws, all dogs are born with front dew claws, not all dogs have back dew claws. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rowie-the-Pooh Posted October 10, 2003 Share Posted October 10, 2003 Rowie only has her front dew-claws. She was born without back ones. I, too, am not sure wether to keep them or not. They are a lot of responsiblity. Keeping them trimmed. But I feel it is too late. She is almost two years old! She must be used to them by now. Personally, I don't mind the extra clipping! What I'm worried about is that it might get caught on something. Rowie is an active dog, and she also leaves scratches on my arms! :-? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aroura Posted October 10, 2003 Author Share Posted October 10, 2003 Rowie, I wouldn't do it unless she has to go into surgery for some other reason. I wouldn't put a dog under anesthetic simply to have their dew claws removed, if they were going in for another reason and you want them removed while the vet was at it, thats another thing, but simply to get it done because of the slight possibility they may catch on something is alot of extra trauma on the dogs body, probably for nothing. I'm sure Rowie is fine how she is :D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DogPaddle Posted October 10, 2003 Share Posted October 10, 2003 I debated this when fostering Tyr. He had "detatched" rear dew claws - loose and flappy. We opted not to remove these but in retrospect I think we should have be cause they were detatched. However, I definately would leave the front dewclaws (presuming they are not detatched.) Both my boys use them for playing with toys both on their backs and otherwise, they also use them to anchor bones etc that they are working on and to pull things towards them. Neither of my dogs are working dogs but when I took Kavik canoe tripping he used his . . . I never knew dogs could rock climb, very steep spots with very few holds. My freind has a Czech GSD that is Schutzhund titled and had to have his rear dews removed because he tore them more than once, front ones ok though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Anonymous Posted October 10, 2003 Share Posted October 10, 2003 I spoke to my vet at length about this. Mary still has hers and I was considering having them done during her spay. The vet explained they can be either attached or detached. Attached ones have bone and a joint, detached ones are only held in place by skin and are loose and floppy. Since Mary's are attached my vet advised not to remove them saying the procedure to remove was very invasive and recovery would be difficult. So I decided not to remove Mary's, I keep them trimmed and we have experienced no problems. I am not sure they help her in agility any. She can cut corners pretty well but I don't believe her dew claws have any part of that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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