Nancy B

Yes, some folks (back yard breeders, commercial breeders and puppymillers) do use AKC registration of their pups as a "selling point" to folks new to the dog world. Someone new to the dog world just doesn't really know that AKC registration does not define the quality of the pup. If I were looking for a purebred pup of a breed that I wasn't familiar with I wouldn't go through the AKC. I'd go to the breed parent club. All breed parent clubs have standards for their breeds. (Those are available on the AKC website.) Those standards can help you make an evaluation of how well the sire and dam of the pup conform to the standard. Most breed parent clubs also have a Code of Ethics. Now, I'm not saying that every breeder who belongs to a parent club is a paragon of virtue but, you can pretty well eliminate the commercial breeders and puppymillers. You might still find some back yard breeders who belong to breed parent clubs. The next thing to do is to check the recommended health testing for that breed. If the sire/dam of the pup have not had the recommended health testing then I'd look elsewhere. Another thing to consider is what has the breeder done with the sire/dam of the pup? Have they shown in conformation, obedience, agility, herding, whatever venues would be suitable for the breed in question. If they have done absolutley nothing with their dogs then, why did they breed the litter??? Many folks may think their dogs are the most wonderful dogs on the face of the earth.....I know mine are! A responsible breeder doesn't have the "luxury" to do that. If they do that then they're "kennel blind" and can't see their dog's faults. It's impossible to breed to improve the breed if you can't even see your dogs faults. (Breeders can and do love their dogs but they must be able to and acknowledge their faults!) Showing in some venue at least gives the breeder to get other educated opinions on the quality of their dogs. In conformation, it would be the judge's opinion. In obedience or agility, then it would be can the dog qualify and title in those events. In the USA a person looking for a pup has to do some work if they want to be sure that they're getting a good quality pup. Yes, it's a bit of a pain in the neck but I can't see the people in our country ever handing over the decision to breed to any organization. It goes against our country's fundamental thoughts on "freedom".

[quote name='Lucky Chaos']I honestly think its stupid to fault non cropped dogs. Its all for looks anyway, whats the big deal in letting uncropped dogs show?[/quote] I agree with you although I know the Doberman community will fight that tooth and nail. Ears don't make a Doberman and, heck, all Dobes are born with natural ears. Why should lack of cosmetic surgery be a fault?

[quote name='Irena']i relly dont know how think going in AKC, i'm FCI bu here if sombody wants to breed his dog he has to go for a least judge test. some breeds need HD test and some two excelents in diffrent shows, some breeds will breed only when they get there ch titles. any breed and his catogories. but all of them has to get judge test a least ones to get promesion to breed there dog. if the dogs sizes are according to there max \ min standart there is no problem to continio to breed them. each breeder has his oun ideal dog in mind. but if the dogs above the max size how there breeder got the premisions to breed them?[/quote] In the USA anyone can breed any dog. No testing is requried by the AKC or any government or quasi government body aside from possibly a DNA test for the AKC if the sire is a frequently used sire.

[quote name='Ranas Crew']I was told that most clubs liek AKC and such are really getting away from the cropping and docking of the breeds that this is done to. Dobies can be showing in confrimation with natural ears just saw it on crufts so as strict as the UK is on confrimations shows I would say not to. One Owner of a dobe told me that her dogs temperment changed after it when you touched the ears while petting her head some two years after, has has since got 2 more that she refused to crop the ears for that rason alone. Its a personal choice really. I like a natural looking dog Rana and Connor at present[/quote] I believe it is not legal to crop dogs in the UK anymore so of course Crufts will have natural eared Dobermans. In the USA I believe there has only been a grand total of ONE Doberman with natural ears to finish a conformation championship. There is another one doing quite well and I do expect that one to finsh too but still......two dogs out of hundreds? If you're gonna show, not good odds. Per the USA AKC standards, uncropped ears are a fault and a dog will be penalized for that fault. Sure, if you have an absolutely spectacular uncropped dog go ahead and show it. While my choice in the future will be uncropped Dobes, I can't believe that cropping has any effect on their temperament at all.

Oops, I forgot to say that the huge Dobe bitch who is so lovely came from a sire and dam that were absolutely within the standard size wise. Like I said, surprises happen and breeding isn't an exact science! :)

[quote name='StarGaze']I know next to nothing about Dobies, but I [i]thought[/i] AKC conformation breeders like them bigger, almost like the bigger the better (althought obviously not like Danes, not to the extreme). I heard or read that somewhere a couple years ago. It's not true?[/quote] There is no disqualification for size in Dobermans but, there is a range of size in the standard for both dogs and bitches and (supposedly) any dog/bitch under or over that range would be faulted to the extent that it is over or under that range. (As any other dog/bitch in the ring would be penalized for their faults/deviations from the standard.) That said, many breeders do tend to "push" at the top of the standard size.....especially if they hope to special the dog. Whit is in the dead center of the stanard size for bitches yet, when she's on show grounds she usually looks a bit on the small side. Not a lot smaller but, the bitches being shown are usually a little bigger. Mason is on the small side for a male Dobe. I did show him in conformation for a while and it was very frustrating. Even though he was within the standard, he took a bunch of reserves and major reserves. Judges kept telling his handler how nice he was and how wonderful he would be when he matured. He was 3 years old when the last judge said that so he sure wasn't gonna get any bigger! Mason's 26 1/2" at the withers. His sire is just slightly over the top size wise for males at 28 1/2". If I stand Mason next to his sire the difference, only 2", is rather dramatic. Mason's sire outweighs Mason by quite a bit too so somehow Mason winds up looking a lot less "substancial" than his sire. I think it all boils down to the fact that you want your dog to make an IMPRESSION on the judge and it's difficult to "stand out" if your dog is on the small end of the standard. That's why breeders try to "push toward the top end" size wise. of course, the nicest pup in the litter may be middle of the standard or, like Mason, toward the low end. A middle of standard size would still do very well showing. A dog toward the small end of the size would probably not have a show career.....it would just be too difficult and costly to finish. The spread of sizes isn't big. For bitches it's 24" to 26" and they call 25 1/2" ideal. For dogs it's 26" to 28". As you can see, Mason is 1/2" over the minimum size for a male but he was consistently one fo the smallest dogs in the ring when showing. Breeding isn't an exact science. Breeders can't say to themselves "I think I'll breed a litter that produces dogs that are exactly 28 1/2" at the withers. Surprises also happen. There's an absolutely huge Dobe bitch being shown, she's taller at the withers than Mason's sire is....she's actually taller than most of the males in the ring when she's competing for BOB. That is a fault BUT, aside from that fault, she's really lovely. Wonderful angles, planes and movement....a truly outstanding bitch. Aside from the size fault, she's a fabulous speciman. So, when a judge sees her in the ring yes, he sees the size fault but all dogs have faults. Should she be denied the win simply because of her size? Not unless that fault is more "serious" than the faults the other dogs in the ring have. (All dogs have faults!) Anyway, where size gets into extremes, that's where the "warlock myth" came from. [url]http://bakaridobes.westhost.com/publiceducation/PECWarlock.html[/url]

[quote name='FearedDogFan']Sounds like the AKC isn't as good as I thought it was. Sounds a little corrupt to me! :o[/quote] No, it's not that they're corrupt, it's just that they're simply a purebred dog registry. Conformation shows, earth dog trials, lure coursing....all that stuff is part of the "service" the AKC offers (and makes money off of) to help breeders evaluate their dogs and, hopefully, help people make an honest evaluation of whether or not their dogs should be bred. But all of that is in support of their primary purpose, being a dog registry. Using the albino Dobes as an example, the AKC stated that the first albino (who was a genetic mutation that all other albinos are descended from) was born to two AKC registered Dobermans. She was a Dobe and thus elegible for registration. A dog having AKC registration is NOT an indication of the quality of the dog. Heck, puppymillers AKC register their dogs! All an AKC registration says is that this particular pup was born to two AKC registered dogs of the same breed. (There are exceptions to that....dogs given an AKC registration when they come in from another country that the AKC has an agreement in place with.) The AKC offers a lot of activities that we can participate with our dogs in but, bottom line, they're a breed registry.

You should probably go to the Doberman Pinscher Club's public education website here [url]http://bakaridobes.westhost.com/publiceducation/[/url] and read the "Warlock myth" portion. If you're considering getting a Doberman, it would be a good idea to read all of the information on the public education website. There's also an exhibitor's and breeder's education website as well as info on finding a responsible breeder and how to buy a Dobe pup. All of those things have links from the main DPCA website at [url]http://www.dpca.org/[/url] Responsible Doberman breeders do not breed for oversize Dobermans although there can be Dobermans who do go over the standard size within a responsible breeder's litters. Genetics isn't an exact science so, stuff like that can happen. Oversize isn't a DQ in Dobermans but it is a fault and will be penalized accordingly. There are two big commercial Doberman breeders and a host of puppymillers who breed oversize Dobermans and try to use their size as a "selling point". Run far away from anyone who does that! The AKC is simply a breed registry, that's it. Any pup who is sired by two AKC registered parents will not be denied registration. The AKC does not control the breed standards, the breed parent clubs do. The breed parent clubs can and do occasionally modify the breed standard but, they cannont modify it to the extent to make the AKC deny registration to a dog with a fault like oversize if it was born of two AKC registered dogs. Goodness knows, the Dobe club tried very hard to get the AKC to deny registration to albino Dobermans and the AKC refused. The best the AKC would do was to add a "Z" to Dobes descended from albinos so that everyone who looked into a dog for breeding would know that they needed to stay away from "Z" dogs.

Just thought I'd toss my 2 cents in. My male Dobe, Mason, has food allergies. He didn't seem to have them as a pup, they developed later on and presented themselves in two ways. He would compulsivly lick his paws, sometimes to the point of removing fur. He would also develop bad rashes on his belly and underarms. He would then lick the rashes to the point where they became infected and we'd be off for antibiotics and steroids. Once we realized that Mason had food allergies I immediately put him on an elimination diet. (Oddly enough, he'd been on the BARF diet prior to that.) Doing the elimination diet we found out that Mason is allergic to fish and fish oil. (Poor boy, I gave him fish oil caps every day before the elimination diet and he regularly had a fish dinner on BARF.) He's also allergic to all grains. We suspect that it may be that he's allergic to gluten but, we don't know that for sure. he's allergic to flax seed and flax seed oil. Allergic to milk and milk products. He's just allergic to a whole bunch of stuff. Oh yeah, he's allergic to beef too! Now I told you all that so that you can see that the best way to sort out allergies is to do an elimination diet. You stop ALL supplements. You pick one source of protein and one carb. (Mason's first elimination diet was vennison and potato food.) Try to use an "unusual" protein, something that your dog hasn't been exposed to before....something he wouldn't have developed a sensitivity to. Keep the dog on the diet for several months to make absolutely certain that there is no reaction/sensitivity to what you're feeding. (Grains, particularly corn, are a huge trigger for many dogs.) If there is no reaction then you may add one item to the dog's diet at a time. I'd give a month for each added item to ensure that you'll have time to see a reaction. Allergies can be managed once you know what the triggers are. Mason has not had a reaction for about 2 years now.

Both of my Dobermans are cropped and docked. I do like the way they look but, that said, I have recently decided that I'd like to own natural eared Dobes in the future. No more cropped ears. I'm not going to knock folks who crop, it has just turned out to be my personal preference not to support it in the future. A preference for natural ears is going to cause me all kinds of trouble when I do decide to get another Dobe. (Hopefully that won't be for years since I'm strictly a 2 dog family!) Almost all responsible breeders crop their entire litters prior to placing for two reasons. #1 is that Dobe rescue has in general been able to place cropped/docked Dobes much more quickly than uncropped ones. (Not saying the natural eared ones don't find homes. Just as a rule it seems to take longer and the longer Dobes sit in rescue using up a "space", the fewer Dobes rescue is able to help. Responsible breeders do everything that they possibly can to see to it that their dogs do not wind up in rescue but, in case all goes wrong, they think a cropped Dobe would find a home more easily than an uncropped.) #2 is that the final grading for show potential pups is usually done after the age that a Dobe would be cropped. Breeders want to be sure that if they produce a spectacular pup that it has cropped ears ergo, they generally crop the entire litter. Since I will undoubtedly be looking for another performance Dobe in the future, I'll probably buy from a show dog breeder. Dogs that do agility take a "pounding" particularly large dogs like Dobes. I'll want a very good shoulder set and good rear angulation.....an all around structurally well built dog and the only place I can see getting one is to go to the show breeders. Mason will finsih the DPCA's agility top 20 year as #5 in the USA. (Info isn't published yet but all scores are available on the AKC website so, I know this.) He's just 48 points short of his MACH (master agility championship) and I expect him to finish that this month. I'm hoping that when I do look for a breeder and ask for natural ears that they'll be willing to look at my "record" in the breed and be willing to "bend". I hope.

[quote name='DobieGirl']I had my first Dobermans ears cropped at 16 weeks and they stood up fine, it cost me $500. My second Dobermans ears were cropped at 11 weeks and they never stood up, (now when he perks them, they stand out to the side like an airplane:) They cost $500 as well.[/quote] I know of a few pups who were cropped so late. (At 16 weeks.) Pups that are imported to the USA from Australia are ususally cropped late, there's just no choice. Breeders in the US crop Dobe pups between 7 to 12 weeks of age. The majority seem to do it at about 8 weeks old. Waiting for 16 weeks is a gamble, it's pretty late to crop a Dobe and know that the ears will stand. The type of ear leather a particular dog has will no doubt influence a late cropping decision.

Blue and Fawn Dobermans are dilutes of Black and Red. Color inherentence in Dobermans can be a very tricky business. The DPCA has a chart up here that will tell you what colors you can expect from a given breeding. [url]http://www.dpca.org/color.chart.5.html[/url] Most breeders try to avoid producing dilutes since they generally do have sparcer coats than the blacks and reds. Sometimes it's difficult to know for sure what colors you may be producing. A sire who is thought to be a dominant black may have sired 8 all black litters so he's breed to a wonderful example of a fawn Dobe in order to retain all of her positives yet use the dominant black gene to get rid of the dilution......then, when the pups arrive, they suddenly find out that the dog they thought was a dominant black (#1) wasn't one at all....he was a #2 or #3... There is no genetic test to tell you which dogs carry dilution. Yes, researching pedigrees will give you a handle on teh ones that you can be pretty sure do but, surprised can and do crop up. There are some breeders out there who are producing fawns and blues with very good coats but, that's not the norm.

[quote name='SizzleDog']Many dobe people I know swear by chiro[/quote] Yep, I'm one of them. Both my kids get regular chiro adjustments and regular deep tissue massages. It's quite common here with the agility folks and frequently, at the large trials, there will be a vet on site for adjustments as well as a person or two for massage.

[quote name='Carolk9s']Mason's owner is NancyB! She is a member of the forum but I don't think she has posted for a while.[/quote] Hi Carol! nope, I don't have too much time to post anymore. Worked learning how to be a trial secretary for a trial in october and now this April I'm the official trial secretary for a three day trial. Between that and teaching more agility classes, a lot of my spare time has been eaten up! I do check in here at least once a week but, I don't often post. I just LOVE that print of Mason!!!! Leah is such an incredibly talented artist and all of her prints show that. I just happen to think that Mason's is the most special of all.....but I will admit that I'm a wee bit biased! :lol: I'm bidding on it and I'm praying that I can get it!

Roxie's head and markings look very much like a Dobermans but her body type is very different from a Dobe. She could be a mix of Dobe and Lab....something like that. She could also be a mix of B&T Coonhound and something but I do think her head is more of a Dobe type than a Coonhound type.