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Guest Anonymous

It was the whole FUBU shirt thing that really irritated me. My point is that there are BYBs of alls shades an colors, and i would just be easier if we found another aspect about bad owners to generalize. Color is always a touchy subject so why use it whe nthey give us so many other reasons to hate them. Like lazy irresponsible, cruel, dangerous, uncaring, I CAN go on....

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  • 6 months later...
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I am quite interested in this subject as well. I am hoping one day in my police endevors to work with the K9 division...it seems only natural to me.

The ones I have heard of police officers using the MOST are...

German Shepards
Labs
Dobermans
Rottweilers

This is the list I am choosing out of when I (hopefully) can get in the training area of the department. My problem comes in with...WHICH ONE?

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Hi Camille,
A friend of mine has just started a chat forum similar to this and he has extensive experience in training dogs for police,military protection etc.
As far as I know he has experience of rotts,malinois,GSD's and more it might be worth a look,he is also on here from time to time as 'Masairotts'.

Here is the link to the new site,look forward to seeing you there....

[url]http://www.the3rtclub.co.uk/forums/index.php?s=388e6d43a7e8b370b86879351735f7aa&[/url]

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Guest Anonymous

I have seen a few of the dogs mentioned in this segment GSD Rott as well as others i saw an attack demonstration using the GSD and a Rottweiler and i will tell you this and the officer said that the Rott was a good dog but they were no where as agile as the GSD and you could throw the Rott off of you they do not have the Jaw strength a GSD has and as far as a drug dog the GSD has far better a nose than the Rott only other drug dog that is a match for the german shepherd is the Labrador in the nose department but as far as pursuit/ attack dogs the GSD is faster, more agile and once in his mouth you arent going any where when he puts you on the ground thats where you will stay as far as the pit bull as a police dog they simply do not have the body weight speed or the body strength as the german shepherd really the only thing the pit has to offer is a freakishly strong bite and the police do not want suspects arms severed from thier bodied they want the dog to chase knock suspect to the ground and hold besides the GSD has enough jaw strength to snap your arm in two the idea of having pursuit dogs is not to maul people and someone said on another part of the forum that a pit bull is the only dog that will protect its owner and die for its owner they never owned a German shepherd not to say that a Pit is not a good dog but a GSD will always protect its owner or handler at any costs that is why there are so many shutzhund certified GSD that is what Shutzhhund means is protection dog i know i have a shutzhund GSD as well as small children a 1 and a 2 year old and they poke and pull and lay on him and he will never so much as growl at them if they bother him to much he will simply get up and go to another room i trust him with my life and my children supervised or not i done much reading on large breeds and the GSD perfectly fits in in my family i dare some one to come in my house in the middle of the night and try to harm me or one of my children some one will encounter a VERY formitable advisary these are just things i know about for absolute certain sorry about no puntuatuion my period button is broken

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[quote name='Sabastian'] a GSD will always protect its owner or handler at any costs that is why there are so many shutzhund certified GSD [/quote]


This statement is so NOT true! And just because a dog is Schutzhund titled does NOT mean that the dog will bite a person in "real life". They are trained to bite the sleave ONLY. And there are more SchH dogs that WON'T bite in real life than there are that will.
There are a lot more GSDs (or any breed) that will NOT protect you from TRUE harm than there are that WILL. There are plenty that will run for the hills and leave you on your own.

There are plenty of SchH titled Goldens, Labs, and even Border Collies. These dogs got SchH titles because they are highly trainable. Not because they are dogs that will protect their owners in "real life". A SchH titles does NOT mean the dog is a "Real" protection dog. Schutzhund is a SPORT.

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Guest Anonymous

You need to look up the german meaning for shutzhund it means protection dog Yes shutzhund is a sport but there three phases to shutzhund tracking,agility, and Protection work have you eveer been to or do you have a shutzhund dog if you did you would know what it was all about it is not to create a visious monster or to train a dog to me abnormally agressive the protection phase is quite the contrary it is to help create a more stable dog that will be able to identify a potentially dangerous situation and what action to take up to and including stopping a threatening situation shuzhund is very demanding on the handler as well as the dog it tests stability obedeince and helps to bring out instinct that the dog already posesses in a controled fashion to read more on this there are several sites you can visit but here is a link to help explain shutzhund a little more for those who are interested [url]www.k9kamp.com[/url] a good sound dog will not run from danger such as an attacker or burgular he will simply deter or difuse the situation again some breeds are naturally protective of thier families and property shutzhund training simply helps the dog to control the situation but you are right about shutzhund being a sport and its not all about just attacking some one or biting some one it is sort of like martial arts for dogs martial arts you dont train to fight you train so you wont have to but if you still have any doubts would you likke to come over somtime for a demonstration i am teasing but thats truly what it is about i hope this clears it up a little i didnt mean to offend any one that was not my intention i have several friends that train police dogs and some handlers as well they are the ones that got me interested in shutzhund it is a whole lot of fun for you as well as your dog

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Believe me I know all about what SchH IS and ISN'T. I have been involved in GSDs, SchH, and Police K9s since the 70s. And I still say that your statement "a GSD will always protect its owner or handler at any costs." is NOT true.

And the three phases of SchH are Tracking, Obedience, and Protection. Not Agility. (There is retrieving over jumps in the Obedience phase, but there is NO seperate Agility Phase.)

Schutzhund was developed to test the GSD. And in Germany they MUST have either a SchH title OR an HGH title(Herding) before they can be bred. (As well as a conformation rating, breed survey and an AD. An AD is required BEFORE they can get their breed survey.)

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  • 1 month later...

I do agree with Black GSD, I have personaly seen numerus GSD that would rather run and hide than face the danger. Of course I have seen numerus other dogs of other breeds do the same. I am working in a group wich is involved in the scandinavian mentality test, wich is a test especialy made to test the mentality and natural responces of the working breeds in varius surcomstances. I have seen police dogs, breeding dogs, pets and the responces are quite different, some are brave but most are quite afraid and run away. Not all GSD are that brave that they would defend their families to the death but some are.

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  • 3 weeks later...
Guest Anonymous

Well I have read all the comments on what dogs make good police dogs etc and here are the facts,the current most popular dog worldwide is the GSD but there are few good ones available and these are coming from the former eastern block,belgium and holland and the going rate is $4000,coming a close second is the Mallinois and again to get a good one will cost you the same.
The Rott is gaining in popularity but many PD trainers have little experience of training them and they are either very good or suspect.
Currently there are several working in the UK and many more in the pipeline..
As for bite strength,the Rott has been proved by universities to have a much more powerful bite than a GSD and any police officer that has a Rott that can be thrown off a bite should get rid of it,I recently watched a dog I supplied throw a 16 stone man around like a rag doll.
And a good Mal will never give up.
No dog of any breed will automatically defend you and the GSD is no exception,true some will but many will turn and run.
As for Sch etc,great for fun but useless for real life action.
Paul

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Guest Anonymous

I think that so much of the GSDs pull is that it has always been used. as far as K9, and Shutzhund....they were the dog of choice, not always because they were the best but because thats what people had always used.

I personally think that BlackGSD is right that NO dog of any breed is a sure fire protector in a real life situation. Well maybe a Neo those dogs are phenominal protectors... Joking. But now my take i think the best dog would be a APBT or an american bulldog. both dogs are extremley proficient in all areas. decent nose, very agile and athletic, and the bite (do we even need to go there?). I think that if given the chace they could prove to be great in the sport, on the job, and in real life. If people can get past the stigma that has been laid on them as of late, they will see what they can do. Now i will not refute the malinois is a great dog, and the drive on them is something to see. BUt they are also on the smaller end of the spectrum. and i dont know about you but if i was going to have my life in the hands of a dog of any breed under 70 lbs it will be an APBT, and if you want a bigger dog with those same abilities then an AB isthe way to go.

JMO

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Not slamming other breeds but I don't see how they can compete with Malnois, GSD's or Giant Schnauzers that are bred solely for protection work. APBT and AB are great dogs but they simply were not bred for this purpose.

Another thing about the three breeds I listed is that they are highly intelligent. Not saying Bulldog breeds are dumb by any means, just saying that they might not have what it takes to assess and handle the types of situations these dogs have historically proven to excell in.

Bulldog breeds have been around for hundreds of years and yet they were never really used as wardogs or protection dogs. I've even spoken with Czech border patrol guards and they've said that other breeds don't compare to the well roundedness of the GSD and Giant Schnauzer (Schnauzers weakness is his nose hence the replacement by the GSD in DDR dogs).

That being said, of course not every GSD will prove to be a good protection dog. However in general the DDR lines especially are known for these characteristics and have been bred for them over the generations. Bully breeds as we know were bred for different purposes. But then again there definately are some rare ABPT's and Bullies who are used in this area and excel at it.

In terms of apptitude dogs bred for herding or specifically for this sort of work do seem to have the advantage i.e. GSD's Malinois Rotties Doberman etc.

I think the Chinese army has also bred a dog for work in the field, it looks strikingly similar to a GSD... :wink:. Forget the name, i'll try dig it up.

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Guest Anonymous

I have to disagree with you. while it is True the shepherds and malinois are great dogs and are used extensively. but the bulls breeds AB, and APBT specifically are profound protection breeds and have many talents that would make them excel. they are very althletic, solid temperments are easier to find then with some other breeds, are naturally very exubriant and hearty. they are very well rounded in all areas they do well in tracking not as good as some but better than others. but they are a standout on the bitework. they have great mouths and a good solid bite. and as far as the bite goes a dog should bite and hold, these dogs were bred to do just that. I am staying with the bullies on this one, there isnt a task out there that they cant compete in and excell in. sure the are other breeds that out score them in single events, but on average they are in the top portion of every catagory.
i think that the only reason they arent used in police work is because they havent been tried. that would be just the boost the breed needs right now, some K9 officers out there!

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What about the claim that pit type dogs make poor protection dogs because they specifically tend to be too freindly to people to make good protection dogs?
Additionally GSDs are genrally noted to be highly obedient and highly trainable and american staffordshire terriers and their cousins are noted to be difficult to train, not nec. because of intelligence but just because they are more difficult to train/do obedience with. There may be some pit types dogs that excell in obed. but this is not the standerd. It is not enough for police dogs to be athletic, have drive, and have a good bite - it is exceedingly important that they are obedient and controlled for their safety, the safety of their handlers and to be able to maintain the control needed to do the required job.
Granted pit type dogs would have a real edge in police work due to the intimidation factor and the bite work. Might make folks think twice.

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Guest Anonymous

DP actually the APBT makes a bad guard/guarding type dog, they make great protection type dogs. the differenceis that a guard dog is a dog that works without a handler. a guard dog is just set lose and expected to confront anyone that may come near(the typical junk yard dog). the APBT is too friendly there have been countless instances when full grown APBTs have been stolen right from their yard, the thief just walked up snapped on a leash and walked away with the dog. But protection work is dog and handler working together, the APBT is a very protective dog of home and family. and that will to please and protect are what make them excel in protection work. That same gameness that made them famous in the pits is being moved over and they are proving themselves just as game in the fields. If i had to choose a dog of 60lbs to put between my family and an armed attacker, there is only one dog that i would say... an American Pit Bull Terrier.

I would argue that the APBT is noted for trainability. True not just anyone can take one and work with it but that is the nature of most working breeds. If you know how to a particular animal learns no matter what breed it is you can teach it to do just about anything its body will allow. THe APBT is ranked high on every breed trainability chart i have seen. They not only can do the work, but they can do the work very well.
they have the temperment and ability that you have to import those breeds to find. Thats one of the best things about these dogs they are right here, where most GSDs are imported from Germany to get a good temperment.

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Interesting distinction between gaurd vs police work.

I certainly agree that many of the best GSD and Malinois lines used for police work must be imported here. Still they are very nice dogs and, for my personal preferences, worth it.

I suppose the only way to determine if pit type breeds would really be suitable for police work is to trial them and see how they do. I know there was a police force, in Europe somewhere I think, using Standerd Poodles so pit type dogs could get a chance too, in areas with no BSL. I think the Poodle thing would be good - catch people completely off gaurd, paticularly if you dye them pink and do them up with bows. :lol:

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Guest Anonymous

poodles are a lot more dog then people give them credit for... i was shocked to learn thet they were a hard core hunting dog. i had only ever saw show poodles, like on dog shows and the smaller minis. Very intersting to see that they are being used for more than being pretty.

Yeah I think that the current state of affairs pretty much removes them from a chance at K9 work. GSDs are the more accepted breed, although i do know of a rottie down south that gets results in crowd control. The thing about the police in my area anyway they have a very sterile department. everything is by the book, we haveonly had GSDs so that is what we will use. its not that they denied the ability of the dog but it was more that the dog would bring unwanted publicity to the department. So im my head a headline "K9 stops suspect" is okay as long as its not a pit bull? The breed stigma is deep seated indeed. people that dont hate the breed will still abandone them to avoid publicity as a "pit bull lover". what is that about?

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My Standard Poodle Kody (deceased) was a natural hunter. He wasn't like a hound following a scent or anything, but he did catch a few rabbits in his days. :-)

I wish poodles didn't have the reputation of being so prissy. I used to kind of cringe before I told people I had a standard poodle. I would always emphasize the standard part and tell them that he weighed 70 lbs. Lots of times when I would take him places people wouldn't believe that he was a poodle. One lady accused me of buying a genetically engineered dog. :roll:

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Yeah Standard Poodles rock! I was originally shocked to find out that they are the #1 most intelligent breed, followed by #2 BCs and #3 GSDs. Now having worked with dogs, I have so much respect for Standards from my "pretty showdog" thoughts of the breed from before. They are so popular now as service dogs for the blind, SAR... you name it. Though I can't really imagine a person stopping in their tracks with a poodle on hot pursuit of them. It's the prissy dog idea we have of the breed.
I don't know if I'm right but I heard before that PSDs also benefit because there usually is no chase, people are afraid of the dogs and give up as soon as the officer say's their going to release the dog. Sure they have to know and be able to show their stuff too.
APBT's are a very versatile breed I think. If they were bred and trained for it, they could do the job!

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Actually Standard poodles rank 2nd (after Border Collies.. of course :P ) in the world wide intelligence test that was completed several years back by Drs Ian Dunbar and Prof Stan Coren. They are smart dogs and their breed appreciation was boosted a few years ago when Kirsty the chocolate Std Poodle with her owner Ann Northfield won the bitch obedience championships.

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Guest Anonymous

Having spoken to actualy K9 cops.. I dont think that the APBT would be good police dog anymore.
Here are some reasons that i have been given: FIrstly its not that the APBT couldnt do it, they can do anything...but:
1. the training methods used would be too harsh (as tough as they are they are very sensative)
2. the odds of running across a stray dog while on the job could be more than some dogs could handle
3. K9 officers rarely actually bite and when they do they dont want a hard bite (I didnt know that :oops: ) the preferred is a lot of bluff and then go in for a nipping bite which results in a really scared suspect or a mouthful of clothes

so i recant my statements they wouldnt be a good police breed but they would be a good protection breed.

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[quote]2. the odds of running across a stray dog while on the job could be more than some dogs could handle [/quote]

That's something I had not thought of, good that someone did.
And that point about the bite . . . now that I think about it it is good to have a dog that can bite and [b]hold[/b] but that probably doesn't take that much pressure. I think it would be a blast to do shutzhund with Kavik - he is very tenacious once he has hold of something, can lift him right of the ground. Unfortunately, he is way to soft and way to obsessive, it would either tramatize him or he would obsessively want to do bite work and that would be a HUGE problem.

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  • 7 months later...

I nkow I am incredibly late with this post, but maybe it will help some...

APBT's, in my opinion will NOT make good K-9 candidates for many of the reasons voiced here. To be a good K-9, prey drive, and ability to respond well to relatively harsh training methods are key, and As someone else said, stray dogs or dogs on scene could be a problem with an APBT. Sure they could actually do the work as well or better than most breeds physically, but not really worth the risk, plus the public opinion thing counts here too. Most departments will not let APBT's be k-9's either..something to think about.

If yo want a BUlly Breed for this work, the AmBull is probably the best candidate. Large, imposing, athletic, trainable, and the bite work is relatively easy for them. There is a department in Utah that has AmBulls in their SWAT unit...See the leerburg board for details...

ANother often overlooked breed is the Bouvier. In Europe they are doing very well in K-9 work.

DEFINITELY do not use a MAL if you haven't worked them before. THey are a handful! GSD's if you can find one that is suitable are the K-9 of choice in this field, but if you are looking to be a little different and the department allows it, try the AmBUll, or the Bouvier.

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