Vet Recommendation

[bk_blue]

Is that an attempt at humour or are you trying to make a valid point?

[BuddysMom]

Point. The woman has to make an agonizing decision, and you (and others) are ripping into her about past decisions, not helping advise constructively on what is to be done now.

(edited to correct one typo)

[Maxiega]

Hi,

I know I'm new to the board. However I wanted to clarify a couple of things. I'm Alena's friend and I have 20+ years of training experience. I have taken numerous courses on Canine Behavior. What Alena was trying to say was I'm Certified as a Canine Good Citizenship Evaluator. I have worked with a couple of Master Trainers and my specility is to go to the home and evaluate the dogs with problem behaviors. I told Alena along time ago to use the NILIF. This is not the first time Star has shown aggresion to her son. Star shows classic signs of Fear Aggression. When you approach her she backs away with hackles up and barking fiercely with her tail tucked between her legs. She did this even when Alena brought her to my home. I have tried to help Alena as much as possible. My opinion is Star had major problems before Alena ever got her. I didn't know she was getting her or I would have temperament tested her. At this point Star is very unpredictable. The medical issues can be dealt with, Pancreatic Insufficieny can be treated, the fear aggression is another issue. Anyone who would temperament test this dog would fail her. She is jumpy at loud sounds, she is afraid of things that she is not familiar with. If startled by something unusal she backs away with hackles up. Unfortunatley something has happened in Stars past that we will never know about. I will continue to help Alena anyway I can. If she really wants to try a rescue I will continue to look, but the three I have talked to said they did not have resourses to deal with her.

[__crazy_canine__]

BM, we have the right to our opinions... as BK always says, its a public forum and when you post here you are opening yourself up to comments, good or bad.

I offered my advice if you read my post, but Im sorry, Im not going to simpathize (sp?) with her about something thats her fault. Im sorry for Star, but thats it. I know its hard to go through what she is but maybe she shouldve thought about that before getting anotehr dog.

[BuddysMom]

[quote name='__crazy_canine__']BM, we have the right to our opinions... as BK always says, its a public forum and when you post here you are opening yourself up to comments, good or bad.

I offered my advice if you read my post, but Im sorry, Im not going to simpathize (sp?) with her about something thats her fault. Im sorry for Star, but thats it. I know its hard to go through what she is but maybe she shouldve thought about that before getting anotehr dog.[/quote]

CC, I never said you didn't have a right to voice any opinions. If you want to offer no sympathy here that is of course your perogative. In my OPINION however that is cold and mean, at this point.

[bk_blue]

[quote name='BuddysMom']Point. The woman has to make an agonizing decision, and you (and others) are ripping into her about past decisions, not helping advise constructively on what is to be done now.

(edited to correct one typo)[/quote]

It's a public forum. As CC said and I have said, you post about your life on here, it's open to criticism. Can't handle it? Don't post about it. This may never have happened if some forethought had gone into the decision; you never know. It may not be *especially* helpful top YOU or TX, but CC and I made a valid point that has much more scope than you seem to think. Perhaps it will help someone *else*, lurker or member, think twice about buying a dog totally inappropriate for his or her lifestyle.

[__crazy_canine__]

[quote name='BuddysMom']In my OPINION however that is cold and mean, at this point.[/quote]

Thats your opinion.
My opinion is that its cold and mean to not set boundaries for Star which probably has sentenced her to death.

[Guest Anonymous]

[quote] agree. There is no excuse. And in a perfect world, dogs and kids lay all over eachother, everywhere all the time - the couch, the bed, the dogs bed, the floor.. and the dog is never, never supposed to have any kind of adverse reaction...EVER cuz there is no excuse, right ? We wouldnt expect that kind of reliability from a child, a family member, etc. But we do expect it from our dogs. I am not saying its wrong, but its the social stigma attached to this type of behavior - when in reality we all have bad days, our dogs included.[/quote]
As we should expect it from our dogs. There is no excuse for a dog biting a child, and if one does, it should be put down.
If a dog reacts to a "bad day" by biting a child, there is a problem.

[quote]The OP is walking a very rocky road at this point. I dont envy her. I dont think the dog needs to be pts. I disagree that this was an attack. I have seen the effects of a dog attack first hand. Dog attacks break skin, and involve punctures. The worst this dog did was nick. [/quote]
It wasnt just one bite, but three. And look at the pictures. The dog did break skin. What if the dog would have been having more than just a "bad day" (which is a ridiculous excuse) and really hurt the child moreso than it did?

[tx2478]

i was going to post who she was but she posted so nv

[tx2478]

[quote name='bk_blue'][quote name='tx2478']As for the comment on me owning a dog my husband and i talked about having a pet and he suggested a german shepard because he had 15 years experience with that breed he is not by all means a trainer or a professional but he has had the training experience and my good friend who lives here is a akc certified trainer and she helps me out with star since my husband is away...[/quote]

I find this pretty silly and irresponsible. Your husband is away, so you get a dog HE is familiar with to protect you while he, the one with all this experience with the breed, is not there? Why didn't you get a dog YOU were confident in handling seeing as you're the one who has day-to-day control over her?

I think r2's post had a lot of merit.

Good luck with what you decide.[/quote]


you can look back i didnt get the dog after he left i got him before my husband had to leave i cant remember if i knew if he was leaving or not i and i am not sure if i said i got her to protect me i know in dals thread if that is what your are refering to i said that some people get a dog to protect i got a dog to be part of my family my husbands only rule was it to be a german shepard...

[tx2478]

and i never said i couldnt handle what anyone was saying actually i apologized for letting my emotions get the best of me and said everyone has a right to there opinion....i appreciate all the support but that is not the only reason i came here i came for advice and i took it and i learned from it the only reason i got upset at the post is because when rotten two said her first reaction to me getting a dog was whoooa i dont recall ever telling anyone if i had any experience or not or if my husband did so i am presumming that she thought that just cuz of someone elses previous post about asking if i should get a dog cuz i do know that one of friends put a thread on her if i should get on or not or cuz she didnt know me and just figured cuz i got a dog it was bad....as for the breed her being a german shepard i have no problem with there breeds my husband is in love with that certain breed and that is what he has experience with so of course i would get an animal that he knew about...i also didnt know about kids until i had my first and that didnt stop me from having my second and i am sure someone said whoooa i shouldnt of had my daughter cuz i had no experience...now for those of you that are worried that i might run out and get another dog i wont this is a hard decision so if that is your fear dont worry about that it isnt going to happen anytime soon

[Rowie-the-Pooh]

Tx, I know its a difficult time. And you know Dogoers will always have a shoulder for you to cry on, whatever you decide. But I was just wondering one thing, why did you need a GSD to protect you? On every single Dog Site I have ever visited, they mention that getting a dog [i]just[/i] to guard you is a no-no. Couldn't you have gotten a burgalur alarm? And from what your friend posted, it seems she isn't that good at gaurding anyway. Where was she from?

I hate to bring up the past, don't answer if you don't want to! Just wondering..

Good luck.

[CincoandDahlilasgirl]

[quote name='Rowie-the-Pooh']Tx, I know its a difficult time. And you know Dogoers will always have a shoulder for you to cry on, whatever you decide. But I was just wondering one thing, why did you need a GSD to protect you? On every single Dog Site I have ever visited, they mention that getting a dog [i]just[/i] to guard you is a no-no. Couldn't you have gotten a burgalur alarm? And from what your friend posted, it seems she isn't that good at gaurding anyway. Where was she from?

I hate to bring up the past, don't answer if you don't want to! Just wondering..

Good luck.[/quote]

Rowie maybe TX's last post will help :wink:
[quote]and i never said i couldnt handle what anyone was saying actually i apologized for letting my emotions get the best of me and said everyone has a right to there opinion....i appreciate all the support but that is not the only reason i came here i came for advice and i took it and i learned from it the only reason i got upset at the post is because when rotten two said her first reaction to me getting a dog was whoooa i dont recall ever telling anyone if i had any experience or not or if my husband did so i am presumming that she thought that just cuz of someone elses previous post about asking if i should get a dog cuz i do know that one of friends put a thread on her if i should get on or not or cuz she didnt know me and just figured cuz i got a dog it was bad....as for the breed her being a german shepard i have no problem with there breeds my husband is in love with that certain breed and that is what he has experience with so of course i would get an animal that he knew about...i also didnt know about kids until i had my first and that didnt stop me from having my second and i am sure someone said whoooa i shouldnt of had my daughter cuz i had no experience...now for those of you that are worried that i might run out and get another dog i wont this is a hard decision so if that is your fear dont worry about that it isnt going to happen anytime soon[/quote]

[tx2478]

it doesnt bother me to answer and i didnt get a dog to protect me i got a dog to be part of my family probably way to much info but after my husband and i got married six years ago he said since i am gone alot i would love for you to be protected and that is when he started teaching how to use a weapon and be comfortable with using one...and that is what my husband bought for protection not star...i am sorry if i came across that that might be why i got her...i might of said it gave me security for having her because i know if someone were to come in my house her barking would alert me but again that is not why i got her...just wanted to explain myself

[BuddysMom]

[quote name='bk_blue'][quote name='BuddysMom']Point. The woman has to make an agonizing decision, and you (and others) are ripping into her about past decisions, not helping advise constructively on what is to be done now.[/quote]

It's a public forum. As CC said and I have said, you post about your life on here, it's open to criticism. Can't handle it? Don't post about it. This may never have happened if some forethought had gone into the decision; you never know. It may not be *especially* helpful top YOU or TX, but CC and I made a valid point that has much more scope than you seem to think. Perhaps it will help someone *else*, lurker or member, think twice about buying a dog totally inappropriate for his or her lifestyle.[/quote]

I sincerely apologize to you and CC for the homeless people comment. That was way out of line. It's true I do not know the entire history and it's also true she opened herself up to any comment positive or negative, and she can handle it. It just seemed to go beyond my sense of decency to be so critical give the circumstances ... but hey, that is MY sense of decency, not necessarily YOURS or anyone else's.

[Rowie-the-Pooh]

[quote name='CincoandDahlilasgirl'][quote name='Rowie-the-Pooh']Tx, I know its a difficult time. And you know Dogoers will always have a shoulder for you to cry on, whatever you decide. But I was just wondering one thing, why did you need a GSD to protect you? On every single Dog Site I have ever visited, they mention that getting a dog [i]just[/i] to guard you is a no-no. Couldn't you have gotten a burgalur alarm? And from what your friend posted, it seems she isn't that good at gaurding anyway. Where was she from?

I hate to bring up the past, don't answer if you don't want to! Just wondering..

Good luck.[/quote]

Rowie maybe TX's last post will help :wink:
[quote]and i never said i couldnt handle what anyone was saying actually i apologized for letting my emotions get the best of me and said everyone has a right to there opinion....i appreciate all the support but that is not the only reason i came here i came for advice and i took it and i learned from it the only reason i got upset at the post is because when rotten two said her first reaction to me getting a dog was whoooa i dont recall ever telling anyone if i had any experience or not or if my husband did so i am presumming that she thought that just cuz of someone elses previous post about asking if i should get a dog cuz i do know that one of friends put a thread on her if i should get on or not or cuz she didnt know me and just figured cuz i got a dog it was bad....as for the breed her being a german shepard i have no problem with there breeds my husband is in love with that certain breed and that is what he has experience with so of course i would get an animal that he knew about...i also didnt know about kids until i had my first and that didnt stop me from having my second and i am sure someone said whoooa i shouldnt of had my daughter cuz i had no experience...now for those of you that are worried that i might run out and get another dog i wont this is a hard decision so if that is your fear dont worry about that it isnt going to happen anytime soon[/quote][/quote]
I was wondering where she got Star from, and it doesn't mention it there. Nor does it answer any of my previous questions. :wink:
[quote]it doesnt bother me to answer and i didnt get a dog to protect me i got a dog to be part of my family probably way to much info but after my husband and i got married six years ago he said since i am gone alot i would love for you to be protected and that is when he started teaching how to use a weapon and be comfortable with using one...and that is what my husband bought for protection not star...i am sorry if i came across that that might be why i got her...i might of said it gave me security for having her because i know if someone were to come in my house her barking would alert me but again that is not why i got her...just wanted to explain myself[/quote]
Thanks for clearing that up, TX! I got the impression because you kept mentioning that your husband got Star to protect you. Anyways, please keep us updated! :wink: Just one more thing, where did you get Star from? A rescue? Because you mentioned an abusive past.

[tx2478]

i got her from a family from spanaway

[SarahQ]

[quote name='Hmmmm'][quote] agree. There is no excuse. And in a perfect world, dogs and kids lay all over eachother, everywhere all the time - the couch, the bed, the dogs bed, the floor.. and the dog is never, never supposed to have any kind of adverse reaction...EVER cuz there is no excuse, right ? We wouldnt expect that kind of reliability from a child, a family member, etc. But we do expect it from our dogs. I am not saying its wrong, but its the social stigma attached to this type of behavior - when in reality we all have bad days, our dogs included.[/quote]
As we should expect it from our dogs. There is no excuse for a dog biting a child, and if one does, it should be put down.
If a dog reacts to a "bad day" by biting a child, there is a problem.
[/quote]

I disagree. As I disagree with most hard and fast, cut/dry rules regarding animal behavior. I am not saying that this dog should or should not be put down, but I have had to make that decision for a dog. It is never, never cut and dry. When any life hangs in the balance, I think we owe it to that life to consider all possibilities.


[quote name='Hmmmm']
[quote]The OP is walking a very rocky road at this point. I dont envy her. I dont think the dog needs to be pts. I disagree that this was an attack. I have seen the effects of a dog attack first hand. Dog attacks break skin, and involve punctures. The worst this dog did was nick. [/quote]
It wasnt just one bite, but three. And look at the pictures. The dog did break skin. What if the dog would have been having more than just a "bad day" (which is a ridiculous excuse) and really hurt the child moreso than it did?[/quote]

The dog just barely broke the skin. My cats have done worse to me. Maybe I should put them to sleep according to your rule ? I think the dog certainly could have hurt the child more than it did, had it been interested in actually hurting the child, which I dont think was the case. The dog was likely responding to a challenge and trying to get said challenger to BACK OFF. I am not making excuses. I am talking about the reality of the situation -- ALL dogs can bite. If you dont want a dog that poses a threat to you, get a stuffed one. The standard model comes equipped with life endangering equipment.

[Guest Anonymous]

Yeah, all dogs can bite, but not all of them do. Why give the dog another chance to bite your child?
You said it wasnt anything but a nick, as you have seen dog bites and they break the skin... Then you go on to say he barely broke the skin... Three bites, broken skin... By your own definition, it was an attack.
[quote]I disagree that this was an attack. I have seen the effects of a dog attack first hand. Dog attacks break skin, and involve punctures. The worst this dog did was nick.[/quote]
[quote]The dog just barely broke the skin.[/quote]
Should there really be a classification of "barely" when a child is involved?
[quote] When any life hangs in the balance, I think we owe it to that life to consider all possibilities. [/quote]
You really think that? Even if it involves the life of a CHILD? Im sorry, but no dogs life is worth that of a childs life. At least not in my opinion. The dog may not physically hurt the child to the point of stitches or death, but what about psycologically? Should that not be considered as well?
[quote]The dog was likely responding to a challenge and trying to get said challenger to BACK OFF.[/quote]
A "back off" warning involving three bites?

As for your cats... Well, my only cats are mousers. They chose to be here of their own free will, I didnt bring any of them to my place. I dont interact with them at all except for putting out a bowl of water and the occasional scraps. But if one of them did bite one of my nieces or my nephew, yeah, Id put it down.

I know its hard to put a dog down. But there is a point when it needs to be done.

[courtnek]

[quote name='"SarahQ"'][quote name='Hmmmm'][quote] agree. There is no excuse. And in a perfect world, dogs and kids lay all over eachother, everywhere all the time - the couch, the bed, the dogs bed, the floor.. and the dog is never, never supposed to have any kind of adverse reaction...EVER cuz there is no excuse, right ? We wouldnt expect that kind of reliability from a child, a family member, etc. But we do expect it from our dogs. I am not saying its wrong, but its the social stigma attached to this type of behavior - when in reality we all have bad days, our dogs included.[/quote]
As we should expect it from our dogs. There is no excuse for a dog biting a child, and if one does, it should be put down.
If a dog reacts to a "bad day" by biting a child, there is a problem.
[/quote]

I disagree. As I disagree with most hard and fast, cut/dry rules regarding animal behavior. I am not saying that this dog should or should not be put down, but I have had to make that decision for a dog. It is never, never cut and dry. When any life hangs in the balance, I think we owe it to that life to consider all possibilities.

I too disagree, simply because what we have been told about "kids being able to lay on the floor and do anything they want to dogs" is a stereotype. SOME dogs, yes. I could do that with my golden...I can do it with my hound, and any kid could...my lab? NADA...never. and Kyle was grown enough when I got Free (10) to understand how to treat a dog, what is correct and what is not.

Now I rule with an iron fist, and possibly thats why I nor my son have never been bitten. but you cant rule with an iron fist if you dont know how.

when Kyle was a baby I had 110 pound dog, acquired before he was born. If not for an iron fist, and pack rules, that dog would have had to go. but WITH it, he was trained to lay in a specific corner when Kyle was on the floor, and NOT MOVE unless he was told to. and he was never told to unless Kyle was in his swing, his high chair, or his playpen. no they did not roll around on the floor together, til Kyle was about 7....and had learned the proper way to treat an animal. no staring in the face. no pulling ANYTHING on the dog. no taunts, no smacks, no teasing. no issues.

NILIF is the gentle, people orientated version of pack rules. real packs are not that nice to be in when you've done something wrong....my dogs will not lay teeth to family flesh, EVER, for any reason. I have always had big dogs, Laurel is my smallest at 65 lbs. teeth to flesh cannot be tolerated in dogs that size.

so Hmmmmm...I have to both agree and disagree. yes, STAR needs some major re-evaluation, and possibly she can be trained, but not unless TX wants to become the iron fist necessary to do it. this dog thinks it is higher in her pack than her children. that cannot be tolerated.

as far as letting kids roll on the floor with the dogs? Lassie is a motivator behind that thought, as are all TV and movie dogs with perfect personalities and no flaws....in real life? I wont take the chance.....

[SarahQ]

[quote name='Hmmmm']Yeah, all dogs can bite, but not all of them do. Why give the dog another chance to bite your child?
You said it wasnt anything but a nick, as you have seen dog bites and they break the skin... Then you go on to say he barely broke the skin... Three bites, broken skin... By your own definition, it was an attack.[/quote]

You are mincing my words and you know it. I also said that attacks involve multiple punctures. There is no puncture here. There were potentially three snaps judging purely from the marks on the skin. Of those three snaps, one barely broke the skin. I call that good bite inhibition.


[quote name='Hmmmm']
[quote]I disagree that this was an attack. I have seen the effects of a dog attack first hand. Dog attacks break skin, and involve punctures. The worst this dog did was nick.[/quote]
[quote]The dog just barely broke the skin.[/quote]
Should there really be a classification of "barely" when a child is involved?
[/quote]

Yes.

[quote name='Hmmmm']
[quote] When any life hangs in the balance, I think we owe it to that life to consider all possibilities. [/quote]
You really think that?[/quote]

Yes.

[quote name='Hmmmm']
Even if it involves the life of a CHILD? Im sorry, but no dogs life is worth that of a childs life. At least not in my opinion. The dog may not physically hurt the child to the point of stitches or death, but what about psycologically? Should that not be considered as well?
[/quote]

I dont think that taking the child's life into consideration negates the concerns about the dogs life. The parents should handle the psychological needs of the child. Explaining to the child what happened, why, and how mommy could have handled the situation better. That it is not necessarily the dogs fault, why would should exercise caution around ALL dogs, etc, etc. There will be many potentially 'scarring' situations in any kids life. It is up to the parents to turn the vast majority of these into a 'learning/growing' opportunity.

[quote name='Hmmmm']
[quote]The dog was likely responding to a challenge and trying to get said challenger to BACK OFF.[/quote]
A "back off" warning involving three bites? [/quote]

I dont know about your dogs, but my dogs do that too eachother all the time. Someone is sleeping and another dog invades their space <snap><snap> backoff. Its a warning. This dog obviously viewed the kid as an equal or lower ranking pack member, and felt that this sort of warning was appropriate. Bad decision on the dogs part. However, from the otherbehavior described above by the trainer not an entirely suprising one.


[quote name='Hmmmm']
As for your cats... Well, my only cats are mousers. They chose to be here of their own free will, I didnt bring any of them to my place. I dont interact with them at all except for putting out a bowl of water and the occasional scraps.
[/quote]

Obviously another indicator of your views on the value of animal life.

[quote name='Hmmmm']
But if one of them did bite one of my nieces or my nephew, yeah, Id put it down.[/quote]

Somehow that doesnt suprise me. I disagree with that too, depending on the circumstances.

[quote name='Hmmmm']
I know its hard to put a dog down. But there is a point when it needs to be done.[/quote]

I agree. I dont know all the circumstances surrounding this situation. I cant/wont make that call without seeing a dog. I dont think anyone should. But IMO - BITE does not equal DEATH.

[Guest Anonymous]

Three "snaps" or bites, as called by the doctor, is more than just a warning.
[quote]Obviously another indicator of your views on the value of animal life.[/quote]
Thats pretty funny considering they were homeless animals. Shows Ill feed a homeless animal. Me not having any [color=green]pet[/color] cats only says one thing.. Im not a fan of cats.
Parents should educate their children about the dangers of any animal before something happens. It unfortunate that so many dont. But, kids will be kids, they dont always listen, and there shouldnt be a dog around if he cant be trusted with the kids. A pulled tail shouldnt be reason enough to bite, nor a pulled ear, or anything else.
Maybe I just feel this way because I can take any one of my dogs around kids and they will take whatever that kid has to dish out. And not ever even THINK of biting them. I believe dogs around kids should all be that way.
And if they arent, they should be put down. I will NEVER put any child anywhere near a dog that has already bitten. You would, I wouldnt. My trust doesnt go that far with animals that have already showed something like that.
[quote]I dont know about your dogs, but my dogs do that too eachother all the time.[/quote]
My dogs dont get that chance. Lets hope yours dont decide to do that to your child, or someone elses.

Court... Its really too bad parents dont take the same steps you do to prevent this kind of thing from happening.

[SarahQ]

[quote name='Hmmmm']Three "snaps" or bites, as called by the doctor, is more than just a warning.[/quote]

Again, I disagree. If it hadnt been a warning. Those pictures would have been much much worse. This dog didnt want to hurt this kid, or it would have. Its as simple as that. IME, dogs dont miss on accident.

[quote name='Hmmmm']
[quote]Obviously another indicator of your views on the value of animal life.[/quote]
Thats pretty funny considering they were homeless animals. Shows Ill feed a homeless animal. Me not having any [color=green]pet[/color] cats only says one thing.. Im not a fan of cats.
[/quote]

I am not a fan of cats either. Really much more of a dog person. Yet, I have 3 indoor, vaccinated, well fed, safe house cats. I think caring for a life is about more than throwing out some table scraps.

[quote name='Hmmmm']
Parents should educate their children about the dangers of any animal before something happens. It unfortunate that so many dont. But, kids will be kids, they dont always listen, and there shouldnt be a dog around if he cant be trusted with the kids. A pulled tail shouldnt be reason enough to bite, nor a pulled ear, or anything else.
[/quote]

Kids will be kids and dogs will be dogs. If a dog does react, should they pay for a kids misbehavior with their life ? If it is a minor incident that can be worked on ? How is that reasonable ? I know so many fabulous dogs that a reformed biters, even reformed kid biters that have gone on to be shining stars of the dog community, but by your logic they all should have been killed as soon as their teeth made contact with skin.

[quote name='Hmmmm']
[quote]I dont know about your dogs, but my dogs do that too eachother all the time.[/quote]
My dogs dont get that chance. Lets hope yours dont decide to do that to your child, or someone elses.[/quote]

My dogs are allowed to be dogs! They can communicate amongst themselves as they see fit, as long as they defer to me as the leader. They do. Dogs operate in a pack heirarchy. We use that for training. Completely supressing that behavior isnt going to do anyone any good.


[quote name='Hmmmm']
Court... Its really too bad parents dont take the same steps you do to prevent this kind of thing from happening.[/quote]

And its really too bad that people like you would penalize all dogs for the mistakes of their owners.

[courtnek]

I'm sorry? I'm NOT penalizing the dog. OWNERS need to know the pack rules, and act accordingly....THEY ARE NOT PEOPLE IN FUR COATS...

the more we treat our dogs like people, the nastier they will become...

[Horsefeathers!]

Hey, where did my sh*t go?? :o

Oh...

JESS! :x