SarahQ

The dog technically cant be returned to the owner, since the owner is out of the country. Said dog can only be returned to the fiance who illegally sold the dog in the first place. I am sorry, but I would be a little suspect here. This could easily be a scam. If this only happened on the 20th, this girl could easily sell such a high demand puppy another 2 or 3 times and be gone in 2 weeks to god knows where. Obviously the fact that the dog isnt legally hers, hasnt stopped her so far. Most people wouldnt question that. I wouldnt return the dog unless you have cash in hand. I would offer to explain that to the original owner over the phone/email whatever. Set up a date for asap when she will have the money (I wouldnt even accept a check). Yes its sad, but even a promissary note isnt going to help you much if this girl takes off to parts unknown. Smells awful fishy to me!

[quote name='Hmmmm'] So Im cruel because I dont allow cats in my house? Youre full of shiny. Are you a member of PETA? [/quote] Nice language. I saw what it said earlier. No. I am not a member of PETA. But what does that have to do with this situation ? I am assuming that you are trying to demonize my supposedly 'extremist' views by associating me with a left field organization ? Is that somewhere in the ballpark ? Nope. Sorry. [quote name='Hmmmm'] You think all animals should have the same rights as humans? [/quote] No. Absolutely not. Where did I say, or even infer that ? [quote name='Hmmmm'] As I said.. these cats came to me. I throw them scraps and give em fresh water. There is nothing wrong with that. Yeah, lol, I should bring em in my house... So they can be truely happy. Who cares my dogs would kill them? :roll: [/quote] What is wrong with that ? Nothing if you believe that they dont deserve some of the basics in life -- like oh I dont know, vet care, proper nutrition, safety, protection from predators, a warm place to sleep. The cats came to you, thats great. So if a dog comes to you - is it ok to just throw them some scraps, leave them outside in the elements to be hit by a car or eaten by a cougar ? Is that ok ? As long as I am "not a dog person" ? Is that part of your ranking of the importance of lives too ? People - dogs - then cats.. lower expendable life forms ? [quote name='Hmmmm'] Its really sad you feel like dogs deserve to be happy moreso than children do. You need to open your eyes. [/quote] Again, where oh where are you getting this ? Because I care about what happens to the dog, because I dont want to see a life needlessly thrown away without considering the circumstances.. that somehow means that I dont give two poops about children ?? Really ?? Is that where you are getting this ?? Because you are mistaken. [quote name='Hmmmm'] Like Court said, dogs arent people. No matter how much you may want them to be. If a dog reacts to a misbehaving child by biting the child, yes, that dog should be put down. I honestly cant believe you put more value on the life of a dog than the life of a child. Thats just ridiculous. [/quote] I agree that would be ridiculous. Its certainly a good thing that thats not how I feel. I dont think that a dog's life has more value than a child's, but that doesnt mean I dont think that life has NO value whatsoever. A life is a life.... to some degree. I for one will never make a sweeping generalization about when to terminate such a life, without considering all the circumstances. Furthermore, I think that court and I are pretty much in agreement. I am fully aware that dogs arent people. You are the one that seems to have an unnatural desire to supress any and all dog type behavior and has unreasonable expectation about what it is to be a dog. And yet again, please show me where I said that I "put more value on the on the life of a dog than the life of a child." I dont think that caring for the life of a child, completely discounts all concern for the dogs existance. And vice versa. Its not mutually exclusive. [quote name='Hmmmm'] Why even take the chance of it happening again, "god forbid"? There are plenty of dogs out there who wont bite needing homes. To take a chance on dog you already know bit, not once but 3 times, and only stopped when the mother interveined, is irresponsible. I really cant even believe people take chances like that when it involves their children. [/quote] I actually havent said that I do or dont think that the mother in this case should or should not put down this dog. Its a hard choice, as I have acknowledged and she has to do what SHE can live with. All dogs require work. ALL of them. Just like people, they all come with issues. I believe that when you make acommitment to a dogs life (or any life), you shouldn't just trade it in because hey, there are dogs out there without this problem. I dont believe in throwing away a life because its a little banged up - to paraphrase a famous quote there.

[quote name='tx2478'] ok i am not meaning for this to become an argument for anyone i am sure in both of your opionions you are both right i am sure if i was paying attention to signs mabye i would of caught something but as for the bites i do want to make a correction yes she bit 3 times and as she was leaping at my son he was leaning himself backward to move away in the longest 3 seconds of my life i grabbed my son away quickly. i think what everyone is getting at is that if i wouldnt of been there it could of been worse and me being there and able to grab my son away from my dog probably prevented more damage. I am grateful that it didnt get that bad and i was able to get him away. Again i thank everyone for there opionions and there support both that agreed and disaggreed[/quote][/quote] Tx - dont worry about the arguing. You have more than enough on your mind. Contradicting peoples ideas makes them think... thats a good thing in my book. ;) I will say that if your dog truly wanted to hurt your son, she would have. Its great that you pulled him away and intervened, but I think if your dog have meant business those pictures would have been alot worse. Dogs who are serious about biting - BITE. They dont leave nicks and scratches. Thats not to say that it wont happen the next time (god forbid there is a next time), but in this case, if she had meant business, she would have punctured, at minimum.

[quote name='Hmmmm']Three "snaps" or bites, as called by the doctor, is more than just a warning.[/quote] Again, I disagree. If it hadnt been a warning. Those pictures would have been much much worse. This dog didnt want to hurt this kid, or it would have. Its as simple as that. IME, dogs dont miss on accident. [quote name='Hmmmm'] [quote]Obviously another indicator of your views on the value of animal life.[/quote] Thats pretty funny considering they were homeless animals. Shows Ill feed a homeless animal. Me not having any [color=green]pet[/color] cats only says one thing.. Im not a fan of cats. [/quote] I am not a fan of cats either. Really much more of a dog person. Yet, I have 3 indoor, vaccinated, well fed, safe house cats. I think caring for a life is about more than throwing out some table scraps. [quote name='Hmmmm'] Parents should educate their children about the dangers of any animal before something happens. It unfortunate that so many dont. But, kids will be kids, they dont always listen, and there shouldnt be a dog around if he cant be trusted with the kids. A pulled tail shouldnt be reason enough to bite, nor a pulled ear, or anything else. [/quote] Kids will be kids and dogs will be dogs. If a dog does react, should they pay for a kids misbehavior with their life ? If it is a minor incident that can be worked on ? How is that reasonable ? I know so many fabulous dogs that a reformed biters, even reformed kid biters that have gone on to be shining stars of the dog community, but by your logic they all should have been killed as soon as their teeth made contact with skin. [quote name='Hmmmm'] [quote]I dont know about your dogs, but my dogs do that too eachother all the time.[/quote] My dogs dont get that chance. Lets hope yours dont decide to do that to your child, or someone elses.[/quote] My dogs are allowed to be dogs! They can communicate amongst themselves as they see fit, as long as they defer to me as the leader. They do. Dogs operate in a pack heirarchy. We use that for training. Completely supressing that behavior isnt going to do anyone any good. [quote name='Hmmmm'] Court... Its really too bad parents dont take the same steps you do to prevent this kind of thing from happening.[/quote] And its really too bad that people like you would penalize all dogs for the mistakes of their owners.

[quote name='Hmmmm']Yeah, all dogs can bite, but not all of them do. Why give the dog another chance to bite your child? You said it wasnt anything but a nick, as you have seen dog bites and they break the skin... Then you go on to say he barely broke the skin... Three bites, broken skin... By your own definition, it was an attack.[/quote] You are mincing my words and you know it. I also said that attacks involve multiple punctures. There is no puncture here. There were potentially three snaps judging purely from the marks on the skin. Of those three snaps, one barely broke the skin. I call that good bite inhibition. [quote name='Hmmmm'] [quote]I disagree that this was an attack. I have seen the effects of a dog attack first hand. Dog attacks break skin, and involve punctures. The worst this dog did was nick.[/quote] [quote]The dog just barely broke the skin.[/quote] Should there really be a classification of "barely" when a child is involved? [/quote] Yes. [quote name='Hmmmm'] [quote] When any life hangs in the balance, I think we owe it to that life to consider all possibilities. [/quote] You really think that?[/quote] Yes. [quote name='Hmmmm'] Even if it involves the life of a CHILD? Im sorry, but no dogs life is worth that of a childs life. At least not in my opinion. The dog may not physically hurt the child to the point of stitches or death, but what about psycologically? Should that not be considered as well? [/quote] I dont think that taking the child's life into consideration negates the concerns about the dogs life. The parents should handle the psychological needs of the child. Explaining to the child what happened, why, and how mommy could have handled the situation better. That it is not necessarily the dogs fault, why would should exercise caution around ALL dogs, etc, etc. There will be many potentially 'scarring' situations in any kids life. It is up to the parents to turn the vast majority of these into a 'learning/growing' opportunity. [quote name='Hmmmm'] [quote]The dog was likely responding to a challenge and trying to get said challenger to BACK OFF.[/quote] A "back off" warning involving three bites? [/quote] I dont know about your dogs, but my dogs do that too eachother all the time. Someone is sleeping and another dog invades their space <snap><snap> backoff. Its a warning. This dog obviously viewed the kid as an equal or lower ranking pack member, and felt that this sort of warning was appropriate. Bad decision on the dogs part. However, from the otherbehavior described above by the trainer not an entirely suprising one. [quote name='Hmmmm'] As for your cats... Well, my only cats are mousers. They chose to be here of their own free will, I didnt bring any of them to my place. I dont interact with them at all except for putting out a bowl of water and the occasional scraps. [/quote] Obviously another indicator of your views on the value of animal life. [quote name='Hmmmm'] But if one of them did bite one of my nieces or my nephew, yeah, Id put it down.[/quote] Somehow that doesnt suprise me. I disagree with that too, depending on the circumstances. [quote name='Hmmmm'] I know its hard to put a dog down. But there is a point when it needs to be done.[/quote] I agree. I dont know all the circumstances surrounding this situation. I cant/wont make that call without seeing a dog. I dont think anyone should. But IMO - BITE does not equal DEATH.

[quote name='Hmmmm'][quote] agree. There is no excuse. And in a perfect world, dogs and kids lay all over eachother, everywhere all the time - the couch, the bed, the dogs bed, the floor.. and the dog is never, never supposed to have any kind of adverse reaction...EVER cuz there is no excuse, right ? We wouldnt expect that kind of reliability from a child, a family member, etc. But we do expect it from our dogs. I am not saying its wrong, but its the social stigma attached to this type of behavior - when in reality we all have bad days, our dogs included.[/quote] As we should expect it from our dogs. There is no excuse for a dog biting a child, and if one does, it should be put down. If a dog reacts to a "bad day" by biting a child, there is a problem. [/quote] I disagree. As I disagree with most hard and fast, cut/dry rules regarding animal behavior. I am not saying that this dog should or should not be put down, but I have had to make that decision for a dog. It is never, never cut and dry. When any life hangs in the balance, I think we owe it to that life to consider all possibilities. [quote name='Hmmmm'] [quote]The OP is walking a very rocky road at this point. I dont envy her. I dont think the dog needs to be pts. I disagree that this was an attack. I have seen the effects of a dog attack first hand. Dog attacks break skin, and involve punctures. The worst this dog did was nick. [/quote] It wasnt just one bite, but three. And look at the pictures. The dog did break skin. What if the dog would have been having more than just a "bad day" (which is a ridiculous excuse) and really hurt the child moreso than it did?[/quote] The dog just barely broke the skin. My cats have done worse to me. Maybe I should put them to sleep according to your rule ? I think the dog certainly could have hurt the child more than it did, had it been interested in actually hurting the child, which I dont think was the case. The dog was likely responding to a challenge and trying to get said challenger to BACK OFF. I am not making excuses. I am talking about the reality of the situation -- ALL dogs can bite. If you dont want a dog that poses a threat to you, get a stuffed one. The standard model comes equipped with life endangering equipment.

[quote name='tx2478'] my good friend who lives here is a akc certified trainer and she helps me out with star since my husband is away[/quote] I was un-aware that the akc 'certified' trainers. Can you elaborate more on that program ? I thought you called this person a behaviorist before ? A trainer and a behaviorist are usually two completely separate things.

[quote name='Hmmmm'] I think a child should be able to lay on a bed wihtout having to worry about the dog biting him. Also, a mother should be able to let him lay on the bed without having to worry. Also, there is no excuse for a dog to bite a child. [/quote] I agree. There is no excuse. And in a perfect world, dogs and kids lay all over eachother, everywhere all the time - the couch, the bed, the dogs bed, the floor.. and the dog is never, never supposed to have any kind of adverse reaction...EVER cuz there is no excuse, right ? We wouldnt expect that kind of reliability from a child, a family member, etc. But we do expect it from our dogs. I am not saying its wrong, but its the social stigma attached to this type of behavior - when in reality we all have bad days, our dogs included. I dont think dogs are intuned with such expectations in a large number of cases. Particularly, when the heirarchy in the house isnt crystal clear to the dog and when kids havent been super involved in the training of the dogs. [quote name='Hmmmm'] Im sorry, the dog should be put down. I know she is loved, but that isnt always enough. How many of you would truely keep a dog that already bit your child?? Would it not be in the back of your mind that it has a good chance of happening again? Again, a dogs life has nothing on your childs. Why chance it??[/quote] It is always in the back of my mind that my dogs are very very capable of biting. Not a single one of them has, but they all certainly could. I never forget that with ANY dog - regardless of history. The OP is walking a very rocky road at this point. I dont envy her. I dont think the dog needs to be pts. I disagree that this was an attack. I have seen the effects of a dog attack first hand. Dog attacks break skin, and involve punctures. The worst this dog did was nick. You know your options. You have to pick the one that YOU can live with.

Kudos to you for opening that can of worms on a site that definitely needed it. I obviously wasnt a very popular thing to do, but for every poster that adamently disagrees with you, there are probably a 100 pet-owning (or soon to be pet-owning) lurkers that actually learn something about BYBs, resposible breeding, etc. A little internet confrontation never hurt nobody! ;)

Oh what a tough situation. I am just wading into this, but I did read through and look at the pictures in the other post. I will say that your dog appear to have very good bite inhibition. From the level she was at she could have done a lot more damage to him very very easily. It probably took more effort for her not to seriously injure him. I also think that your son was in a very compromising position - lying on the bed, not even sitting up, looking directly into the dogs eyes. Eeek! sounds like a challenge to me! It also sounds like a specific situation that can be very easily avoided in the future. I may have missed it, but is this the first time your pooch has shown any aggressive tendencies ? Please be aware that vets are not behaviorists. They like medical doctors, and just like our medical doctors, they are not always experts outside of their finite field. Yes, they see lots of dogs day in and day out. Yes, we are all taught to trust our vets opinion. But, I would be reluctant to take his word as absolute gospel. How many dogs has your vet actually trained ? How many aggressive dogs has he worked with in his home ? How many classes with the public has he taught ? In fact, my vets ipinion would be one of the lesser opinions that I would consider in a situation like this, barring any medical causes of course. My advice: Get the best behaviorist available to you. Have them eval your dog, in your home if possible. Make sure you get a written write up of their assessment. If at that time, you dont feel confident having the dog in your home, send that assessment to reputable rescues, so they know what they are getting into. I personally do not think this is an offense that this dog should have to die over. Things need to change. Precautions taken. Issues addressed. But I think this is your wake up call. Good luck to you!

Thats great! Kudos to you and Buddy!

I was previously registered here, but I am not sure what happened. I am more of a lurker anyway, but a somewhat regular poster on one of those OTHER boards, one which DAL used to frequent. In my lurking, I have followed DAL shenanigans. Most recently, I was appalled at the support that she seemed to be recieving for what I considered a completely BS reason for re-homing a dog. Granted, that dog got a good home thankfully, but the excuse was just phenominal for someone frequenting a pet loving messageboard. Anyhoo, the point of this is to commend many of you. You have far more patience than I to have shown this poster the compassion and understanding that you did for so long. The best I could do was bite my tounge. But I am happy to see that many of you have drawn the line. When animals are being recklessly replaced and acquired without forethought to the consequences, its time to call a spade a spade. I applaud the administrators on this board for taking that stance, even if it is difficult and potentially unpopular. Kudos to you for condemning such behavior. Yes, we all have problems and life is hard. But we can make conscious choices not to drag the voiceless down with us and subject them to needless stress, upheavel, and inadequate living conditions because of our own selfishness. Or at the very least to minimize the impact to them. Seeking out another animal for no logical rhyme or reason at a time when your life is in great turmoil and will continue to be for sometime is not only selfish it is setting yourself and an animal up for failure and heartbreak. I hope that the OP is able to get her crap together at some point and can see past her own "hurt feeling" to see the truth that the "meanies" are spouting.