Lets Talk about Border Collies!!

[Guest Anonymous]

:D :D
What are all your's thoughts on the Working Vs. Show Vs. Pet BC's? I think they are a great breed to discuss this on! There is nothing greater then watching a Border Collie work the feild in my opinion :wink: I was reading an old topic, which... had been drug up, and someone (I believe it was Cassie) mentioned about the show and working BC's, how they are so different now and I deffently have to agree. My friend is going to breed her BC, and at first I argued with her because the dog's parents weren't regrestered with CKC and were not show dogs and stuff. But then she told me that Zen's (the dog) parents were trialed as stock dogs, and not only that, but they work the fields at home on a daily basis. She is going to trial Zen as a stock dog, and if she does good, THEN she will breed her :D When I started thinking about it, I realized, to me anyway, that what she will be doing with Zen is actually BETTER then the regrestered show dog Border Collies. Because she will be breeding the dog to it's true nature :D

So what do ya'll think? :)

[Lucky Chaos]

I much prefer working BC's, IMO ones bred for show are not "real' border collies. In fact alot of them look almost like shelties now to me. :o If I ever do buy a BC it will be a stock trialed one, I still think that showing dogs ruins breeds. I love watching stock dog trials on tv, its beautiful to see and how many show dogs could ever do that? I bet soon the difference between show and working BC's is going to be as big as it is in GSD's.

[imported_Cassie]

I also perfer the working border collies, they are genetically more healthy.

There is an article I was reading in one of my dogs books...this kinda explains it to a sense.

[quote]A few years ago, people who work their sheep with border collies waged a campaign against the registration of their breed by the AKC. Because showing eye is a genetic trait, it can be selected against, and it border collies are going to be bred for shows and pets, breeders are going to have to get rid of the eye. [/quote]

I think border collies are perhaps the most unique of all dog breeds. They are amazing to watch doing their job.

[Guest Anonymous]

:o :o No no! The eye is the BEST trait of the border collie!! Even COAL has it! He can almost hypnotize ME when we're outside playing! :lol: He'll keep his eyes on me or the toy the whole time with such a fixating gaze! plus the way he plays, you can so see he's got BC in him! I bet if I trained him good he'd do really good in the field, but I'd have to rent the sheep :wink:

[imported_Kat]

Having just done a thesis on social behaviour of groups of BC's I concluded that it is how the dog is brought up that will determine how it turns out as a working dog. With Breed vs Working, I have to laugh at idiots that go and get a BC for

[kendalyn]

I think there are good things about all different kinds of Border Collies. If it's true that a Border Collie from showing lines is less high strung and energetic than a working dog, than I think that sort would be better as a pet. Why try to get a working Border Collie if you're not going to work it?

[Pumpkin the musher]

Even though George is a BC mix, he trys to "herd" the other dogs around during their play times. The Alaskans look at him like he's crazy( which he is... :D ) Stay tuned next week for a whole bunch of play time pics
!
[img]http://groups.msn.com/_Secure/0XAAAAH0agpTnNV3Qgu5XnCxvM0h8cmE60vgTU6KCRxcVlG!Rg71cTxfouvqdHsaCLfEEezv52jzzHrlQESzPzMN3BI3EgZ0OK7XgcZcZWSNEZQzIizF9onUywt4F8Cyvt7qpDtkKqYw/5352840-R1-004-0A.jpg?dc=4675459247238038407[/img]

[abker17]

[quote] The eye is the BEST trait of the border collie!! Even COAL has it! He can almost hypnotize ME when we're outside playing! He'll keep his eyes on me or the toy the whole time with such a fixating gaze![/quote]

Abby does the same thing, except more with food instead of toys. :roll:

[quote]I think there are good things about all different kinds of Border Collies. If it's true that a Border Collie from showing lines is less high strung and energetic than a working dog, than I think that sort would be better as a pet. Why try to get a working Border Collie if you're not going to work it?[/quote]

I think that's a really good point Kendalyn.

[cheekymunkee]

All I know about Border Colies is that they are CUTE!!!!!

Debb

[imported_Cassie]

Here is an interesting article:

[quote]Border collie breeders are so sure that the behavioral profile is genetic that well bred puppies come iwth written guarantees that they will clap (show eye) as adulsts. Similarly, English pointers will show "point" and Chesapeake Bay retrievers will eagerly search and retrieve, or you get either your money back or a replacement dog.
When I put a livestock-guarding dog pup out with a farmer, I cannot guarantee it will be trustworthy, attentive, and protective with sheep, because that adult behavior is variable, depending on the environment the dog is raised in. As a breeder I don't have any control over how a buyre raises the future guarding dog, and therefore I can't be sure the adult dog will direct proper behavior toward sheep. However, I should be willing to guarantee that the livvestock-guarding dog will not display the border collie clap as an adult. In other words, what is intrinsic behavior for livestock-guarding dogs is that they have no genetic predisposition to show eye stalk behavior, and cannot leearn to perform the clapping motor pattern.
A behavioral conformation should not be more difficult to visualize than a physical conformation. "Eye", "point" and "retrieve" are actually physical characteristics. The dog standing in a show ring has a shape that is being judged. The border collie clapping (showing eye-stalk) in a sheep herding trial has a shape that is being judged. Pointing at a bird is a shape of a pointer. The show dog handler directs the shape of the dog for a judge just as the shephered directs the "eye" shape of a dog toward sheep, adn just as the sled dog driver directs the running shape of a team of dogs toward the finish line.
I can't herd sheep with the show shape of a border collie. Sheep won't move away from the show shape of a dog, but they will run from the eye stalk shape. I can't teach a Chesapeake to assume the retriever shapes; what I do is direct the retriever towards objects I want it to retrieve.
I picked border collies, pointers, and retirevers for this because each of them displays an unusual and unique set of predatory behaviors. In these breeds, the ancestral forms of the predatory behaviors have been exaggerated, hypertrophied, and ritualized. In each of the breeds a different motor pattern has been modified. What is unique to a breed is the form of the motor pattern and the sequence in which it appears. Thus, if I emphasize and rearrange the motor patterns, each breed becomes behaviorally unique-has its own behavioral conformation. The sequencing of these motor patterns is a product of artificial selection, that is, people adapting the breed to performing its task better than anyother breed or species.
The concepts here can be complicated and are frequentely misunderstood. The field of dog behavior and behavior genetics in general is accompanied by an ambiguous and abused vocabulary, even among professionals. I shouldn't ever say that border collies have genes for herding, nor should I ever claim to be looking for genes for herding.
In theory all motor patterns are internally motivated and internally rewarded. No border collie trialer or sled dog driver ever gives a food reward ffor performance. The dog already got its reward by performing the instinctual behavior.[/quote]
[b]Quote by Raymond & Lorna Coppinger- biologists specializing in the domestic dog - wild canines. [/b]

[quote]I think there are good things about all different kinds of Border Collies. If it's true that a Border Collie from showing lines is less high strung and energetic than a working dog, than I think that sort would be better as a pet. Why try to get a working Border Collie if you're not going to work it?[/quote]
[b]Quote by Kendalyn[/b].

[quote]There is an even more severe problem occurring in the genetics of the household dog. The working dog was selected to behave in a certain way. the sled dog, for example, was selected to run fast in harness with other dogs. In being selected for that behavior, the dogs evolved a unique shape. This shape allows the dog to behave fast, with stamina. The relationship between shape and behavior is omnipresent.
Therefore, if we want to chage the behavior of a dog-make it more peaceful and less vital-we must also change its shape. Herein lies the dilemma for the breeder. The audience wants household dogs that are historical representations of the working-breed shapes, and at the same time they do not want the them to display working-breed behaviors. Trying to select for an acceptable household behavior while holding the working shape constant cannot be done. The dog will come apart. It will show genetic diseases. Its hips won't fit together right. The joints will show weakness, and the each generation will become increasingly less healthy.[/quote]
[b]Quote by Raymond Coppinger & Lorna Coppinger- biologists specializing in the domestic dog[/b].

[leahluvsherpups]

We adopted our BC from the Humane Society when she was 2, now 4, and I think she was bred from Barbie Collies (show dogs). She does not have the drive to herd and I've only seen the eye once when she saw horses. She's real laid back and just loves to play with the other dogs and chew on her bones. Oh well, at least I have Aussies that will work if I wanted them to.

[Guest Anonymous]

Great post Cassie!! :D That last quote was really informative! I've never even THOUGHT about WHY show dogs have more problems then working dogs! :oops: But it makes sense that they are built for working not just in behavior, so that when you take away the behavior the dog "falls apart". It's like building a house sorta deal. If you take away the structure or some main beams or whatever, the house will fall :wink:

leahluvsherpups - Do you work your aussies? And how do you know WHICH breeder the pup prolly came from? I find it hard to see how if it was a good breeder, the dog ended up at the shelter :-? But good for you for adopting her! :D

I don't understand why people would want a border collie just for the looks though :-? Like as a pet unless you KNOW what to expect. I know to expect Coal to be a hyper little devil, and I go out and work him at Agillity, Frisbee, training basic commands, and just playing every day. Some days I take him down to the lake and let him swim around too. Other days i take him into town and we walk around there. I play with him in the house too. I do everything to keep his body and mind not bored and distructive :wink: So I think if a person isn't willing to do that for their border collie, they shouldn't get one! If they can't handle a high-strung dog, DON'T GET ONE! It's as simple as that! We always say a person needs to research a breed before getting it, and that's why! People should get a dog by how it will fit their lifestyle, not how pretty it is!

[leahluvsherpups]

Hazel, I don't work my Aussies yet. I'm still doing a little agility with Bozy and Niki. Cody is still young so she needs to take it easy. Niki was probably purchased from a breeder by the guy that dumped her. His excuse was that he was ill and homeless and couldn't keep her any more. Poor girl, she was so afraid. But now she's my little devil in alot of fluff.

[Guest Anonymous]

[quote name='leahluvsherpups']Hazel, I don't work my Aussies yet. I'm still doing a little agility with Bozy and Niki. Cody is still young so she needs to take it easy. Niki was probably purchased from a breeder by the guy that dumped her. His excuse was that he was ill and homeless and couldn't keep her any more. Poor girl, she was so afraid. But now she's my little devil in alot of fluff.[/quote]

:D :D Sweet. Agility is a blast! I'm starting Coal at it right now, but can only use the tire, and teach him about getting on the teeter and the contact, but he can't actually use the teeter because the other end of it that sticks up, is broken :roll:

[Beautiful Border Collie]

I recently bred my Border Collies. They are not AKC. That is not whats important with Borders unless what you want is a show dog.
What is important is their working ability and of course their overall health. What you need to understand is, ranchers and farmers and such, still use these dogs every day and depend on them to round up and look after their livestock. Continual breeding just for show, or by BYBs will in time, breed the herding instints out of the Border Collie.

But- about my dogs. My male is the most intelligent dog. He will find the remote for me, he comes running to me when he gets hurt, he will pick up things for me when i drop them, he knows so many words and can read my mind. The commands he knows are endless. He is only 5 years old and imagine what he will know in another 5 years.
Here is my boy, Casey and a pic of our new litter.

[img]http://img33.photobucket.com/albums/v101/kcdawg/0551537-R1-032-14A.jpg[/img]
[img]http://img33.photobucket.com/albums/v101/kcdawg/pups.jpg[/img]

[Beautiful Border Collie]

ummmmmmmm, pics of the pups are actual size!! :lol:

sorry, should of shrunk it :wink:

[imported_Cassie]

[quote]I've never even THOUGHT about WHY show dogs have more problems then working dogs! But it makes sense that they are built for working not just in behavior, so that when you take away the behavior the dog "falls apart". It's like building a house sorta deal. If you take away the structure or some main beams or whatever, the house will fall[/quote]
Exactly, I couldn't have said it better myself. :wink:

[imported_Cassie]

[b]Beautiful border collie[/b], I meant to say that your dog & pups are beautiful. Lucky you :wink:

[b]Hazelnutmeg, [/b]
I meant to mention to you also, where you have such a keen interest in learning...and since you seem to have a deep affection for border collies :wink: a very good book I suggest you pick up is called.
[b]Dogs, A startling new understanding of Canine origin, Behavior & Evolution.
by, Raymond Coppinger and Lorna Coppinger[/b].
These biologist's have actually studied dogs and other wild Canines. They have raced sled dogs (Alaskan huskies) and have raised hundreds of border collies and live stock guardian dogs.
They go into indepth detail about shaping behavior in dogs, distributing and mixing genes, behavioral conformation, motor patterns (these section I found VERY interesting, it explained alot to me regarding the predatory sequences of our dogs-it helped me understand my Rottie who has a very high prey drive)
It also goes into detail regarding:
behavioral conformation (shape of behavior, compulsive disorders)
critical theory hypothesis
crossbreeding
They also discuss assistance dogs in great detail, very indepth.

I could go on, there are some parts of the book I have a hard time comprehending...but on a whole it broadened my way of thinking when it comes to dogs and why they do the things they dog, and it also explained to me alot about genetics.

I think the one thing I always think about when comparing true working dogs with show dogs is the difference in looks. With a working border collie you can line up 20 different border collies and have 20 dogs which look completely different from each other. Some may have their ears up, some down, some with long coats, medieum, short. etc. the same goes for true sled dogs (Alaskan huskys - they cross breed with border collies quite a bit) they can look alot different from each other.
When you start showing dogs in conformation shows it turns into one big beauty contest. The dogs must look this way with a certain conformation, certain color, certain height etc. this further decreases the genes in our show dogs. The other thing is they start forgetting what they were breeding for in the first place.

[courtnek]

I have to agree. A working dog needs to work. When man first started crossbreeding dogs for a certain job (which people seem to forget was the whole purpose in the first place) they were concentrating more so on the
working traits that were necessary for it to do its job, not on how it would look. The border is famous for it's "eye". That eye was developed to make the sheep move for it. Without it, it could not herd the way it does. The GSD started out as a herding guard. It could herd the sheep, but it's other primary function was to protect them from predators. Those farmers needed a dog that could herd and protect, so it was easy to transition the GSD into a guard dog. Labs originally were bred (from Newfies and another dog, possibly from Labrador, no one is absolutely certain, but the Lab actually originated in Newfoundland) because the fisherman wanted a
smaller, lighter dog with shorter hair that could still withstand cold water and hard work. The original Labs had wide blunt hard heads and chests.
very well muscled, and webbed feet. This was to enable them to swim
fishing nets to shore, they needed the wide head, neck and chest to carry the weight. A true working Lab looks like a prizefighter from the front.
Some of those traits were bred out after being brought to England to
be used as bird retrievers. The webbed feet were no longer necessary,
and the mouth had to be bred to be soft to not injure the birds.

My Foxhound was a working dog. feet wide and round like a cat's, runs with the stance of a cat, large lungs and knees, ankles and hocs.
all of it to enable a long day in the brush, and the inevitable firing sprint
at the end of the chase. I compared pictures of mine to an English
Foxhound on the web yesterday, a show dog. The differences were
amazing. THAT dog could not have hunted a fox if it's life depended on it.
It's feet were smaller, it's knees and hocs were not the strong, knotted
hunting ones, it's muzzle was too short and it's ears were slightly pointed.
Hunting hounds ears round at the tip to prevent injury. Beautiful dog?
yes. MUCH prettier than Laurel. Useful in a field? absolutely not. Laurel could run circles around her laughing at her the whole time. and Laurel is 6 years old. This one was 2-ish. I was reading the articles about her, and even there, it was suggested that a field trialed hound is NOT a good pet, unless you have acreage for it to run on because it HAS to run, every day.
they suggested a show dog for a house pet instead. In saying that, they are basically admitting up front that the show dog cannot do what the dog was originally bred for.

My point? (sorry this is so long) in breeding ONLY for looks, and show, as was mentioned earlier, the gene pool gets smaller and smaller, and the diseases and potential injuries to the dogs gets bigger and bigger.
That's why I have always firmly believed that there should be a blending of the two, for show purposes. The dog should be able to prove it can at least do the minimum amount of work it was intended to do at the beginning.

[mouseatthebusstop]

I have only met show Boarder Collies which I found had a realy good temperment

[Guest Anonymous]

[quote name='Cassie'][b]Hazelnutmeg[/b],
I meant to mention to you also, where you have such a keen interest in learning...and since you seem to have a deep affection for border collies a very good book I suggest you pick up is called.
[b]Dogs, A startling new understanding of Canine origin, Behavior & Evolution.
by, Raymond Coppinger and Lorna Coppinger. [/b]These biologist's have actually studied dogs and other wild Canines. They have raced sled dogs (Alaskan huskies) and have raised hundreds of border collies and live stock guardian dogs. [/quote]
Thanks! I will deffently see if I can find it! :D Sounds like a good read! :D I just finished "How to Speak Dog" By Stanely Coren last month or so, and I found it very informational, and would deffently love to read this book!

[quote name='Courtnek'] Labs originally were bred (from Newfies and another dog, possibly from Labrador, no one is absolutely certain, but the Lab actually originated in Newfoundland) because the fisherman wanted a
smaller, lighter dog with shorter hair that could still withstand cold water and hard work. The original Labs had wide blunt hard heads and chests.
very well muscled, and webbed feet. This was to enable them to swim
fishing nets to shore, they needed the wide head, neck and chest to carry the weight. A true working Lab looks like a prizefighter from the front.
Some of those traits were bred out after being brought to England to
be used as bird retrievers. The webbed feet were no longer necessary,
and the mouth had to be bred to be soft to not injure the birds. [/quote]

Weird! Steph (LuckyChaos) and I were just discussing this yesterday on MSN I believe... About the difference in working labs and show labs, and how much they vary, and what they need to be able to do the job they are supose to.


[quote name='Corknek']they suggested a show dog for a house pet instead. In saying that, they are basically admitting up front that the show dog cannot do what the dog was originally bred for. [/quote]

As most of you know, I really want an AmStaff. I want this type of dog because I think they DO look nice, but that's not just it. I would love to get an APBT, but I'm not sure if I could handle a true Pit Bull, and after some research found that the AmStaff would suit my life better. The thing is, AmStaff's have quite a bit of health issues now because of breeding away from what the dog was originally bred to do though :-? (check out: [url]http://www.members.shaw.ca/tierrakennels/health.htm[/url])

I wish there was some way to get the "show and pet" version of breeds without picking them apart :-?

I think if I were a farmer I'd LOVE to have Coal as a working dog :lol: I swear, he's split right down the middle, BC and Lab. He swims like a champ., loves to retrieve, and has high stamina. He "stalks" like a BC when he plays, and has displayed the "eye". He'd make a great working dog! He'd be able to hunt duck and herd sheep! :lol: :lol:

DISCLAIMER: For any "designer breed lurkers", just because I managed to rescue a Lab+BC and get these traits out of him, does not mean anyone else would if they try to breed the two together to make a super work dog called the Laber Collie :lol: :lol: :wink:

[courtnek]

I was making jokes about this too, on another thread. Freeb is part lab and pointer, and does both without training. I found that part interesting in that article too, how the pointer points instinctively. I was considering calling her a "Point Lab".....she could go ahead of the troops and watch for the enemy....pick up a duck or two on the way....


:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

[imported_Cassie]

[quote]Having just done a thesis on social behaviour of groups of BC's I concluded that it is how the dog is brought up that will determine how it turns out as a working dog. With Breed vs Working, I have to laugh at idiots that go and get a BC for