Help me.........

[cheekymunkee]

I have a problem & would like to hear everyone's opinion. Please, speak your minds, I really need some input.

My "friend" has pit bull named Doc, about 3 years old & from a BYB. They were inseparable, he had him since he was about 5 weeks old. My friend also had a female roommate (NOT a friend of mine) who he allowed to mistreat Doc. She would yell at him, berate him then ignore him, which in turn caused him to become fear aggressive & mistrustful of women. Enter new girl friend. Doc has NOT bitten girl friend but has shown his displeasure about the situation. He has growled, snapped ( NOT bitten) and shown that he is not happy about her being in his home. My friend's remedy to this? He had her put to sleep. I am absolutely sickened & appalled that instead of working with his beloved dog's problems he chose to end his life. This happened several months ago & I have not spoken to him since. He claims I am being irrational but this sickens me. What are your thoughts on this? AM I being irrational? I have asked several people & gotten their views but I wanted to pose the question to you all, I know the people on this board are TRUE dog lovers & will help me.

Oh and by the way, almost immediately.........there was a new puppy........one that he paid big bucks for. Sick or not???

edit: sorry, fixing typo's

Debby

[Guest Anonymous]

[quote name='cheekymunkee']I have a problem & would like to hear everyone's opinion. Please, speak your minds, I really need some input.

My "friend" has pit bull named Doc, about 3 years old & from a BYB. They were inseparable, he had him since he was about 5 weeks old.[/quote]
Sorry, but I don't believe for a minute that they were "inseprable" if they were, he wouldn't have chosen his girlfriend over his best friend :-? He could have at least TRIED To work with the dog first! I had for three years before i had her PTS, with my aggressive dog. And she didn't have an "incodent" like this dog did, she was aggressive from the begining :-?

[quote name='cheekymunkee']My friend also had a female roommate (NOT a friend of mine) who he allowed to mistreat Doc. She would yell at him, berate him then ignore him, which in turn caused him to become fear aggressive & mistrustful of women. [/quote]
Yet another thing that makes me believe this guy wasn't so attatched to his dog. If he was ever so close, he would have laid down some serious rules with his room mate... at least I would have.

[quote name='cheekymunkee'] Enter new girl friend. Doc has NOT bitten girl friend but has shown his displeasure about the situation. She has growled, snapped ( NOT bitten) and shown that she is not happy about her being in his home. My friend's remedy to this? He had her put to sleep. I am absolutely sickened & appalled that instead of working with his beloved dog's problems he chose to end his life. This happened several months ago & I have not spoken to him since. He claims I am being irrational but this sickens me. What are your thoughts on this? AM I being irrational? I have asked several people & gotten their views but I wanted to pose the question to you all, I know the people on this board are TRUE dog lovers & will help me.

Oh and by the way, almost immediately.........there was a new puppy........one that he paid big bucks for. Sick or not???

Debby[/quote]

I have to agree with you that that is totally sick, and I think if I were in your shoes, I wouldn't talk to him either. :-?

[Cairn6]

Oh my God that is so sick. You would have to pry my dog out of my dead fingers I can't even believe that.

How was the dog with other people? Was it just her or everytime he took the dog out? Was it only women or did he become aggressive towards all people?

[imported_Kat]

well this guy I feel is to blame more than any other person. He should have intervened when the female friend started to chastise the dog. Dogs are so emotional and that imbalance of emotion will tip them over the edge and result in a display of aggressive behaviour which the dog as you said began to show signs of.

He is responsible fo his own dog so ultimately I hold him responsible and no you are not being irrational and if you want to repeat what I said here then go for it so he has a guilt trip and will think twice about treating another dog the way he did. He let that dog down and that was cruel even though it wasn't physical beating. Sometimes emotional cruelty in my eyes is just as bad a crime.

[behle]

[quote name='Kat']well this guy I feel is to blame more than any other person. He should have intervened when the female friend started to chastise the dog. Dogs are so emotional and that imbalance of emotion will tip them over the edge and result in a display of aggressive behaviour which the dog as you said began to show signs of.

He is responsible fo his own dog so ultimately I hold him responsible and no you are not being irrational and if you want to repeat what I said here then go for it so he has a guilt trip and will think twice about treating another dog the way he did. He let that dog down and that was cruel even though it wasn't physical beating. Sometimes emotional cruelty in my eyes is just as bad a crime.[/quote]

I am in total agreement with Kat on this issue. He failed his dog three times over..... :cry: This begs the question....How and when might he fail his new puppy? I was absolutely flabbergasted when I read that he euthanized Doc. :o

[mydogroxy]

i pretty much agree with what everyone has said. though a pit bull should not show human aggression, this dog, through mistreatment and abuse, had been conditioned to behave this way. i'm sure working with both his new girlfriend and his dog they would have been able to work the dog throuh its problems.

just another example of the disposable way people think of pets.

[katetsai]

The guy will get his due someday:evil: :evil: . How could someone do such a thing...

I totally agree with what everyone said about the situation. I don't believe he love his dog as much as he proclaim, and able to just put it to sleep because the dog is acting out that was part of his fault in the first place. I would not have allow anyone to mistreat my dog in the first place. You are not irrational and doing the right thing. I would have done the exact same thing.

He don't reserve you as a friend.

[Carolk9s]

Add my voice to the ones before, you are not being irrational at all. I personally would never trust this person again and would never feel the same kinship with them after this. They would no longer be my friend, just 'someone I knew' if that even. That poor dog was 'taught' to fear a woman, he could have been taught that another woman was not going to abuse him and become her staunchest ally. The friend was not willing to invest time and effort into working with his dog, he took the 'easy' way out, chances are, he will do this again in other aspects of life.
Personally, I would talk to him once more, to tell him that I know longer wish to associate with him, period. Just my not so humble opinion.

[cheekymunkee]

Thank you for your reply's. This has bothered me greatly for the past couple of months & I wanted to be sure I am not being selfish. I jsut don;t understand how someone can be so cold & callous to kill their dog (sorry I do NOT call THIS euthanisia because to ME it is NOT humane) instead of trying to help him.



[quote]Was it only women or did he become aggressive towards all people[/quote]

Not really, once he got used to the person he would be a little calmer but he was not too friendly towards women he didn;t know well.

Debby

[izzy]

I agree with what's been said here. This is a cruelty case, your friend just use this dog as a toy, so when he got tired he just got rid of him. Maybe for him this desicion was responsible, but it seems he had no second thoughts about PTS the dog, so never gave him another chance, this is so sad.

[Julie2004]

I have a very strong opinion about this. When I first got Desmond (at 6 wks of age) I was in an abusive relationship. When I found out the a-hole was abusing my dogs as well, I couldn't get rid of him quickly enough, but it made Desmond VERY fear aggressive toward men.

I hired a personal trainer with TONS of experience with pit bulls and we worked our butts off.

Now he's MUCH better and has even been known to lick strange men to death wiggling his butt all the while.

I have no patience with people that are too lazy to work with their dogs and take the easy way out. In my opinion, that's exactly what your friend did.

It's dispicable.

[cheekymunkee]

[quote]Cheeky... what kind of puppy might I ask? I hope not another pittie.
[/quote]

BINGO!!! On top of all of THAT, he runs around giving "advice" to people about training & behaviour. :boom:

Debby

[Dee]

Debby,

That's so very sad. :cry:

I have also worked with a dog of mine that had some human aggression. It took a while, but he was without incident for the rest of his life. (Akita/Pit)

I can only be friends with people I respect and how can you respect someone like that? He doesn't deserve to have you as a friend!

Dee

[Guest Anonymous]

:o :o :o oh my gosh people like that SHOULD NOT BE ALLOWED TO HAVE DOGS! that is the stupidest cruelist thing that i have ever herd of.. that poor pup i can't beli ve that.. what happens if this new pup has problems? gonna put it to sleep? didn't they do a backgroupnd check on this guy and see that he just had his dog put to sleep?? :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil:

[cheekymunkee]

[quote name='DeafAussieLover']:o :o :o oh my gosh people like that SHOULD NOT BE ALLOWED TO HAVE DOGS! that is the stupidest cruelist thing that i have ever herd of.. that poor pup i can't beli ve that.. what happens if this new pup has problems? gonna put it to sleep? didn't they do a backgroupnd check on this guy and see that he just had his dog put to sleep?? :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil:[/quote]

I don't know if that was done or not DAL. I assume it was but the time frame in which Doc died & the new puppy arrived was only a matter of a few days to a week or so. Not exactly sure on the time frame but is was close. The breeder COULD have done an earlier home check & not know about Doc being killed.

Debby

[Julie2004]

I believe in Karma.

He'll pay the price someday.

[cheekymunkee]

I agree Julie! And I can't WAIT!! Actually it already has to some extent, he has had some MAJOR vet bills recently from what I hear.

Debby

[odnarb]

In all honesty, my feeling are mixed.

An APBT with a proper, confidant temperament would not have become fear aggressive from simply being yelled at, berated, and ignored. There are APBTs that end up in shelters that have been starved, beaten and mutilated that still have nothing but a smile and a kiss for humanity.

If it were his best buddy as he seems to have claimed, I think he would have worked with the dog. However, the dog had an improper temperament, and fear aggressive dogs are a HUGE liability for the breed.

This is a tough one...

[cheekymunkee]

[quote name='odnarb']In all honesty, my feeling are mixed.

An APBT with a proper, confidant temperament would not have become fear aggressive from simply being yelled at, berated, and ignored. There are APBTs that end up in shelters that have been starved, beaten and mutilated that still have nothing but a smile and a kiss for humanity.

If it were his best buddy as he seems to have claimed, I think he would have worked with the dog. However, the dog had an improper temperament, and fear aggressive dogs are a HUGE liability for the breed.

This is a tough one...[/quote]

I agree odnarb & that is why I have been so conflicted over this. It is NOT proper temperment for a pit bull. BUT, it is his personal dog, a dog that he claimed to love like no other and I feel under those cicumstances he let his dog down greatly. If he were breeding this dog or showing it or having it out in the gen pop for some reason then I might see it differently. But that was not the case. If he wanted to better his dog he could have TRIED. If it would have worked is something we will never know. To ME it would have been worth a shot. From what he described the snaps were more of the "leave me alone" variety & not the " I wanna piece of you".

Justice is shy, she is NOT fear aggressive but she is rather shy & submissive to the point of embaresment. After a couple of minutes with a new person she acts like has known them all of her life but first she is leary. Munkee is an all out dork & acts like everyone is his long lost buddy, but he is soft & yelling at him turns him into a baby. I have chosen to work with Justice & she had improved greatly. I think this MIGHT have been the case here too. I think he took the lazy way out.

Debby

[Julie2004]

It may not be "proper pit bull temperament" but, you know what, it was his fault that he waited for so long to get rid of his ex-roomate and so he contributed to the dog's problems. He OWED it to that dog to work with it.

That's how I felt with Desmond. I owed it to him to give him a chance. He didn't chose to have my ex-idiot around, I did.

And, you know what, all the work I put into him at the time and that I STILL put into him has paid off.

[cheekymunkee]

[quote]It may not be "proper pit bull temperament" but, you know what, it was his fault that he waited for so long to get rid of his ex-roomate and so he contributed to the dog's problems. He OWED it to that dog to work with it.
[/quote]

My thoughts EXACTLY Julie!! This was not a dog he found or got as an adult, this was a dog he had raised as a puppy. I am NOT sure if his ex-roommate physicaly abused Doc, he says no but who knows. I feel if he REALLY cared as much for Doc as he claims, he would have at least tried instead of tossing him to the side. The new girl friend took over a part of my friend's life that Doc was used to having. There were some changes made in regards to living arrangments & i think it was too much for Doc to handle. Nothing that couldn't be worked out though.

I feel better coming here & I stand by my feelings in this situation. Thanks!

Debby

[pLaurent]

Just my .02 cents worth, but I think that someone who would enjoy verbally and emotionally abusing a dog in the owner's presence would do a lot worse than that when the owner was absent.:(

Fear aggression does take a lot of time and patience to work through, but when it's situational as in this case, and not genetic, I would think it would be workable.

After all, if people who wear red shirts (for example) always come up to you and hit you in the face, it wouldn't take long for you to be defensive and fearful of anyone wearing red.

[odnarb]

[quote name='pLaurent']

Fear aggression does take a lot of time and patience to work through, but when it's situational as in this case, and not genetic, I would think it would be workable.[/quote]


Why do you think it is not genetic? A pit bull with a PROPER temperament would have come out of that fine. A pit bull with a proper temperament can be the victim of the most heinous atrocities and come out emotionally unscathed. This dog became fear aggressive because it's temperament was NOT up to par.

The reason the breed is in trouble is because people excuse bad temperaments, blaming it on abuse, etc. What constitutes a good temperament anymore seems to be whether or not a dog bites people. Just because a dog doesn't bite people, doesn't mean it has a good temperament. When people start excusing these nervy dogs because they don't bite, occasionally one with a low bite threshhold pops up. And when that happens, the media has a hay day and BSL starts popping up.

It is DEFINATELY genetic. Just as heritable as color and structure.

[odnarb]

[quote name='Mei-Mei']

With all due respect, I don't agree with this. I know you have a lot of experience with pit bulls, but I don't see how this could be accurate.

This may be like comparing apples and oranges, but if you take the example of twin human children raised by two different families, one abusive and one benign, the children may grow up with different personalities. Studies have been done to show that it's not all nature (genetics) or nurture that forms personality but a combination of both.

I think that a pit bull with the proper temperment, when raised from puppyhood by an abusive person, can become out emotionally scathed. Now, if what you're saying is that a pit bull who has been horribly abused still should not be PEOPLE aggressive, well, yes, I agree with that. But I still believe the dog would be emotionally scarred. :-?[/quote]


Perhaps "unscathed" is a bit harsh, as we can't sit down and have a counseling session with the dog and discuss feelings.

However, I am SICK and TIRED of people making excuses for weak nerved dogs. Shy dogs, dogs that are afraid of men/brooms/keep right signs, dogs that growl, whatever. People like to blame these things on abuse, lack of socialization, etc, so they can justify adopting out, selling, or breeding them. The fact of the matter is, those dogs have crappy temperaments.

Heck, one lady flat out told me once that her dog has a bad temperament. She even went as far as telling me about all of the related dogs that had bitten people (and were often still bred), a close relative that was tazered by police, etc. But now, a few years later, her dog has a U-CD and a few UKC agility titles. Now she calls the dog the "epitome of a working dog" and he's up for stud.

I don't have a lot of respect for most APBT & AmStaff breeders anymore. She's typical. It's hard for me to be particularly nice to her when I see her, too. I'm flat out disgusted, and I considered her a friend.

Anyway, take a look at this dog...

[url]http://www.fortunecity.com/business/bull/1547/blossom.html[/url]

This dog when through hell, yet she doesn't have any hang ups. Now, that's temperament, and that's what I'm talking about.

[pLaurent]

[quote]Why do you think it is not genetic?[/quote]

I guess because there was no mention of this dog showing any temperament problems until it was subjected to daily abuse by this other person.

Since this dog wasn't being bred and had never bitten anyone and was very young, I think killing it without making any attempt to solve the problem was a little hasty. JMO.