Cropping and Docking

[kendalyn]

I don't believe cropping and docking should be illegal mainly because I get nervous about any new law in general. I feel legislation gets out of hand sometimes and I don't think it is cruel. Animal protection services already have enough to worry about.

But I would encourage people not to do it. I don't understand dew claw removal either and so far nobody has said anything about the rightness of that. Dew claw removal and docking are usually done at the same age.

Here's an undocked and uncropped Boxer:
[img]http://www.cdb.org/images/10004.gif[/img]

[Guest Anonymous]

I Love dipped tails! That dog is beautiful.

KP- do not feel like i am chastizing you... and if i twisted your words forgive me that is how i read you statement. All I am saying is that when the standard of a dog calls for them to be docked and cropped or like most that just say it is "Preffered" you gotta know people are going to do that. That i my opinion. If you dont want to crop then dont but its so not something that a LAW needs to be passed on.

Hazel-- What was your question? I must have missed it.

[Guest Anonymous]

I have a docked/ uncropped Dobe. The tail was done at 4 days, too old. Should be done at 1-2 days. At that age I really don't think its very painful, the nerve endings and responses from the pup aren't mature enough to regester pain correctly (I saw a litter done once, years ago. Not a whimper or yelp out of the 10). At 4 days, I don't know. What I DO know is that my pup's tail didn't heal right. So at 6 months we had to have the scar excised (she chewed it raw constantly). She chewed the new scar and it had to be done AGAIN :evil: . This time cutting off some of the dead bone. And YES. It was VERY VERY VERY painful for the dog. I had no choice on the docking, but in most cases I'm not against it. It's fast, done very early and heals fast (the tail, at that time, is smaller than an pencil).
Ears???? Whole 'nother story. NO purpose is served, hurts an older dog, requires weeks of follow up and what do you get at the end?? a dog with different ears.

[Guest Anonymous]

I would say of the two ears is the more expendable of the two. some dogs have long thin tails and due to the type of work they were bred fo the tails were a hazard. like the Dobie it has a long thin tail, in guarding and protection it was easily broken. so it was docked. the ears purely to enhance the look of the dog and give it that "hard" appearance. My dobie was natural eared doked tail. by far my best dog she was perfect at no time did i ever wish i had cropped her ears. I think im a lot of dogs ears provide character. like Deja her ears are all over the place sometimes they are semi-erect other times floppy and sometimes one of each. its part of her charm. Dreydin is the guardian of the house so i wanted him to look tough...*whispers* even though he really isnt(dont tell).
But it just adds to the look of the dog. I think that is why most ear croppings are done. to keep to the standard and enhace the appearance. the same reason people put on make-up or get face-lifts.

[Guest Anonymous]

[quote name='KP']Shara, the same woman I quoted also said that she just heard there are breeder's trying to breed herding out of the Austrailian Shepherds so more city people can keep them in apartments.[/quote]


:o :o STUPID STUPID STUPID!!!! :wallbash:

This will RUIN the breed no doubt, I hope they don't succeed at all!!! :evil:

[quote=ROTT'N'PIT]
Hazel-- What was your question? I must have missed it.[/quote]

Sorry, i tend to bable and don't state my point very clear :oops:

My question was: [b]Does Docking/Cropping working dogs affect their ability to work?[/b] The only reason I can think of for cropping an Aussies tail is the amount of bushes they'd drag home from the field with that tail!!! :o I've had two Aussie crosses in the past, and they were both a real pain to take care of the tail, but I wouldn't cut it off, it was well worth it to do the tedous grooming for that gorgous bushy tail :D

[kendalyn]

So what do you guys think about dew claw removal? I would think that if someone was against cropping and docking that they would also want the dog to keep their dew claw. I really have no idea why it is done. My guess would be maybe because it could get caught on something and ripped off. But I question that as a good reason as Buck has his dew claws and another dog of mine had hers also. They were never a problem.

[Guest Anonymous]

I've seen some dogs that have dew claws that stick out like a sore thumb and could EASILY get ripped on something, but other then that I see no point. My dogs have always had little ones that don't stick out, and living out in the middle of the woods they do come in hand for grip... and digging :roll:

[KP]

[quote name='peekaboo'] This time cutting off some of the dead bone. And YES. It was VERY VERY VERY painful for the dog. I had no choice on the docking, but in most cases I'm not against it. It's fast, done very early and heals fast (the tail, at that time, is smaller than an pencil).
Ears???? Whole 'nother story. NO purpose is served, hurts an older dog, requires weeks of follow up and what do you get at the end?? a dog with different ears.[/quote]

This is what I mean.... I completely agree Peekaboo. (you stole my dogs name :wink: :D )

I've never said I feel a law should be passed but I feel it is discrimantory to not allow a natual dog into these shows just because its not altered. I feel a dog is "standard" only when it is natural. I applaud the guy for standing his ground.

As for the dew claws, in some cases I can see where its necissary to remove them but not all dogs need it. I've never had dew claws removed on my dogs but I've seen some dogs where the dew claw has been ripped off or nearly ripped off by the dog getting it caught and ripping it the wrong way on something. Some dogs dew claws stick out like a sore thumb so to speak and them getting caught well, I'll bet thats a lot more painful than then having them surgically removed. I can see in some purpouses the need for it but I don't feel its always necissary.

[DogPaddle]

Shara - Does it affect working ability??? I myself don't know but its an excellent question. Hope someone does know.

[courtnek]

dew claws should be removed if they are "ungainly", sticking out from the
sides far enough where they can be ripped off. If they are normal, they are usually closer to the paw then the ungainly ones. those can stay if the dog is field trialing or doing agility, but the misshappen ones get torn easily. My foxhounds are misshapen, and one got torn off. So I looked into them after a post here at the forum.

[Horsefeathers!]

Just my two cents...

I don't have a problem with dew claws in general, but on heavily coated dogs where they may be "hidden" (Lhasas, Shihs, ones like that), I think that at least rear dew claws, particularly the floppy ones that just kind of dangle, should come off. They are too easily caught in combs, brushes, scissors and such and often easily form mats when owners aren't diligent (and not many people are going to carefully brush that area daily) and then it's a very painful and tedious job of trying to remove a mat from there, especially in such a heavily coated dog that makes it difficult to see the dew claw. I think it would be less painful in the long wrong to remove them. I had Devin's rear dew claws removed when he was neutered for just that reason, but left the front ones intact as they don't protrude and are really in no position to get caught on or in anything. At the time, he was just a foster and going to be adopted out and he was already very agitated whenever something would brush up against them as they had apparently been snagged at some point. I didn't want to risk having them snagged in a comb or brush by the new owner, or have them be bitten by Devin for inadvertently snagging them. Removing them has made Devin much more comfortable when handling his back feet. Where he used to pull and fuss when handling them, now he shows no discomfort or agitation.

I'm kind of on the fence about cropping and docking. What I mean is I would never have it done to any of mine and I would love to see breed standards changed to accept dogs in their natural state. I actually love seeing the Poodles in foreign competitions with their natural tails, though they are still docked here. However, I'm really uncomfortable with often well meaning legislation when so many apparently unenforcable laws regarding animal cruelty and neglect already exist. I worry that, since so many people love the look of altered (docked/cropped) dogs, if it became illegal, they would only resort to doing it at home. Working inside a vet clinic, I've seen many, many dogs come through where the owners did tails and ears at home and it's a disturbing sight. If it became illegal, it would become even MORE common. If people are SO in love with the look, I reckon I feel the lesser of the evils is to still allow it to be done by qualified vets under sterile conditions and the benefit of anesthesia. I think it would be a much easier pill for the American public to swallow if the breed standards were changed to accept natural dogs. Then the public's perception of what looks good would perhaps slowly change to where it would no longer be considered acceptable.

[kendalyn]

[quote]However, I'm really uncomfortable with often well meaning legislation when so many apparently unenforcable laws regarding animal cruelty and neglect already exist[/quote]

I completely agree HF! I think that quite often laws are too hastily created. If you think it's hard to get a law made, try getting a law unmade!

[quote]I worry that, since so many people love the look of altered (docked/cropped) dogs, if it became illegal, they would only resort to doing it at home[/quote]

Excellent point.

[Doglistener]

An interesting and intelligent debate.

I am pleased to see the majority are against Docking, Cropping Declawing in cats and Dew Claw removal.

Let me take each one in turn [b]Docking[/b], if it is for purely aesthetic reasons ie you like the look or for the show ring I am totally against it. However dogs such as the working Springer Spaniels suffer terribly as the tip of the tail is quite sensitive and quite often splits, an ulcer then forms in the split and each time the dog bashes the tail against walls tables chairs or undergrowth it splits again and again it also gets infected causing terrible pain. Therefore to answer hazelnutmegs question [b]Does Docking/Cropping working dogs affect their ability to work? [/b]

Yes! it does in some breeds and this has a positive not a negative effect, but not others like the Lab which doesn't need docking because it is strong and wide like a beavers tail so is not susceptable to splitting, in fact to dock a Lab may actually effect it's overall balance.

I have three Working Springers that have been docked but only a one third dock they keep two third of the tail therefore splitting does not occur.

The reason I keep two thirds of the tail is quite simply because it is a very important body language tool, both visually and olifactory, visual is obvious however few people realise that is the tail is also used to fan out Pheremones from the dogs anal glands to demonstrate it's mood and feelings. The things you learn on these forums. Amazing.

[b]Cropping[/b] I can never understand the reason for this other than to make the dog look tough or in dog fighting the smaller ear is less of a target and thherefore unlikely to get ripped off.

[b]Dew Claws[/b] only when the offending digit is flopping and likely to cause regular pain, I purposely don't remove my Spaniels dews as it helps them when they climb up steep areas and drag themselves up riverbanks.

[b]Declawing[/b] barbaric painful and totally unecessary," banned" as is cropping in the UK and quite rightly so.

I hope this sheds some light on the debate.

[Guest Anonymous]

Totally agree with your post Doglistner except for one thing. the whole cropping ears for fighting thing. that is a myth. if you think about it from the handlers point of view. if your dog is facing another that does like to go for the head, would you rather that the dog got a mouth of ear, or a face, possible getting a canine in the ear canal or something. even in that faction it is purely for the look of the dog, it serves no purpose in the ring and can even be a handicap.

[Doglistener]

Rott'N Pitt said
[quote]Totally agree with your post Doglistner except for one thing. the whole cropping ears for fighting thing. that is a myth. if you think about it from the handlers point of view. if your dog is facing another that does like to go for the head, would you rather that the dog got a mouth of ear, or a face, possible getting a canine in the ear canal or something. even in that faction it is purely for the look of the dog, it serves no purpose in the ring and can even be a handicap.[/quote]

I bow to your superior knowledge I was suggesting logic rather than hard fact. And will admit to such.

You see I don't know everything ..............Only most :wink:

Thankyou

[Guest Anonymous]

I was just looking through a couple studies on this topic and came across a point of conflict between the two (actually several but one main one)
Do you think that dogs dewclaws serve a purpose?

I think that they o the front onees anyway, i cant count how many times i have watched Drey with a bone or a chewie using his dewclaws to hold it at just the right angle to get a good bite. the rear ones I havent noted a use for.
I have read that some dogs are born without the rear ones naturally and other dogs have any combination of front and rear.

Now having seen a dog tear a dewclaw in the field i know it can be VERY Painful and will usually just be taken off at that point. so why not remove the rear dewclaws if it would save your dog some pain in the future?

made me think a little bit.

[Guest Anonymous]

I've never owned a dog with back dew claws actually, I've seen it, but never had a dog of my own with it's back dew claws. I've owned dogs bred to work in the feilds, an dogs bred to work in the water. (herding, retreiving). I agree, the front ones seem very useful, I've seen what you discribed, and it is rather cool to watch. It's almost like a little aposable thumb :lol: But I can't even see HOW the back ones can be used for grip, being such an odd angle the dog would have to be at to be able to use it as grip...

[zheelah]

From my point of view I do not condone docking or cropping. I have a uncropped, docked male dobie and I personaly can't see that it has any effect on his balance. Where I live I fall under the rules of the FCI and that I know of all the breed standards there have been changed to acompany the natural ear and tale of all the breeds recognised. For example the doberman standard was last reviewed in 1994 so there is no 80 year old breed standard that is unfallable.

Cropping and docking is illegal here and breeds like the rottie have of course been fairly poppular with the wrong tipe of people and I know of some incedents where the owners have tried to dock the tale them selves with awfull consequenses. So the whole cropping and docking issue has of course two sides.

[Nancy B]

I own two Dobes. Both are cropped, docked and have dew claws removed. Docking and dew claw removal was done at 2 or 3 days old (different litters), cropping at 7 to 8 weeks old.

Personally, I prefer the look of a cropped Doberman but, if the breed standard changed, I would be willing to consider a natural eared Dobe. The big problem with Dobes is that if you wish to buy from a breeder who has done all the recommended testing for the breed as well as considered pedigree and temperament issues, you will wind up buying from a show breeder. (I'm not saying all show breeders test and are paragons of virtue but, the breeders who test and do all their homework with regard to health and temperament issues are show dog breeders.) All show breeders do also produce and sell companion Dobes.

So, what's wrong with that you're saying. Well, while there may be some pups in the litter that are very clearly pets or conversly very clearly show potential, most of the final litter grading isn't complete until after the time a Dobes ears must be cropped. That's the first factor and one reason why show breeders routinely crop all pups in the litter. The second reason is rescue. Polls have been conducted on placement of rescue Dobermans and cropped Dobes are much easier to place than uncropped. Now the responsible breeders do screen homes and do everything they can to place in a forever home. they also have contracts specifying that if the owner can't or doesn't want to keep their Dobe the breeder will take it back at any time. Guess what? Some folks still don't want to contact the breeder and will still dump a dog. If the dog is tatooed or microchipped, it may be possible to trace back to the breeder who would undoubtedly take it back but, in the event that doesn't happen, the breeders feel that the Dobe would have a better chance for adoption if it's ears are cropped.

My feeling on tails and dewclaws. I run my dogs in agility. I've been at far too many trials where a dog tore a dew claw. I will always remove them. My dogs have no difficutly holding their bones without them. With Dobes, I'd dock tails too. I've seen far too many rescue Dobes split and/or break tails. Dobe tails can vary all over the place. since it's a docked breed, there has been no selection for the tail itself....just tailset, carriage and such. Yes, you might "get lucky" and get a Dobe with a more "Lab like" tail that can absorb blows such as hitting a wall without breaking or splitting but, it's equally as likely that you might not. If the pups is docked at 2 to 3 days, it's far less traumatic than to wait until it's older and then realize that you have a problem....that turns into a major surgery, amputation.

My aunt's rescue Boxer stayed with me for a couple of weeks last Christmas. She split her tail open three times just wagging hard and hitting the wall....painted it with blood. Saw her this Christmas for the first time in a year. Poor baby now has a "kink" in her tail. She broke it, wagging into something. Boxers have the same issue. Docked breed so, no breeding selection for tails.

[courtnek]

[quote]in fact to dock a Lab may actually effect it's overall balance.
[/quote]

In fact it would be a detriment to the dogs ability to swim. They were bred originally to retrieve fish nets and swim them to shore, and the otter-like tail was bred in deliberately to be used like a rudder. It would also affect them in the field, because they use the tail for balance when navigating uneven terrain and hills. I have watched both my Lab Mix and my Foxhound use their tails for whipping around corners and keeping their balance steady.

[Guest Anonymous]

Ever watch Lure Coursing too? It's amazing how they use their tails for balance when their running!! :D

[JackieMaya]

Personally, I'm against any docking or cropping of ears and tails. I think all dogs' ears and tails should be left natural. I love to see a "natural" dog whose breed would normally be docked or cropped.

[Seijun]

Some field working dogs such as pointers have their tails docked to prevent the tail from being injured. A working pointer often ends up running through thick weeds, briars, and barbed fences. The tail is one of the most commonly injured places. An injured tail is painful and difficult to heal, so for the dog's own safety the tail is docked.

For all who claim docking, cropping, and declawing is painful-yes it is. BUT when done properly and at a VERY early age, the pain usualy lasts only a few days.

~Seij

[anne3149]

Ear Cropping has been illegal in Australian for about 20 years I believe. A good thing the way I see it. What purpose does ear cropping serve rather than to make dogs look 'HARD'. What purpose is there to having a dog look 'hard' in the first place. I have Rottweilers and I don't want them to look hard, thereby perpetuating the false impression the media gives to this breed.

I loathe the look of ear cropped dogs. I think it's ugly and these breeds usually have beautiful velvet ears and the dog looks softer. I would never, ever crop a dogs ears. Cropped dogs look quite strange and not attractive at all to me.

Tail docking: I do have 2 docked Rottweilers. They were docked at birth by the breeder. A newborn does not feel pain but each day the nerves will gain more feeling. 3 days would be the limit if I were ever to dock a dog, which I would NOT.

In saying that, docking now is also illegal in Australia and I would be quite happy to have my breed undocked. They look great with full tails.

I understand that in some breeds their is a chance of tail damage and tail splitting by being hit against walls etc., I am not against docking for the benefit of the dog. I am against it for the benefit of the owner.

[Rowie-the-Pooh]

[color=green]I know I'm a bit late answering this, but just wanted to add my thoughts[/color]

I have seen great arguments from both sides, but I must say I oppose cropping/docking in [b]non-working dogs[/b].
Dogs of different breeds were created to do certain things. The Golden to retrieve, the Great Dane to hunt boars, the Otterhound to track and hunt Otters...etc. Ofcourse, a dog would be injured during the hunt/retirieve/tracking so the tail was amputated to cause less pain, and the ears so that whatever the dog was hunting wouldn't "grab on" to them (from my knowledge).
If a dog doesn't work, why do it? I do see the advantage of docking a dogs tail because it wil later on cause pain to the dog, but cropping I just don't see the point of. But Doberfantic made a FANTASTIC point about continuing the dogs heritage...etc. Still I would rather not do it because my dog would not be a working dog.

Another thing I've seen come up in many of searches is that docking/cropping causes other dogs to misunderstand dogs that are cropped/docked since they always look alert. I've read it in a book somewhere, can't remember which. Same thing goes to breeds with very long fur that covers the ears/eyes/tail. Other dogs misunderstand them since they are sending confusing messages with the alert ears but kind body posture. Although I haven't seen it in real life so I can't judge...

Another pet peeve of mine is when dog books get so opinionated! Like one of my dog books is an Encyclopedia of all dog breeds, and when it gets to any of the cropped/docked breeds it will say "dogs ears have been pointlessly cropped to make the dog look 'vicious'" or "tail has been amputated so the dog will look aggressive". :-?

Just my 2 cents! :wink: