How do we do it?

[gooeydog]

How do we take a healthy, strong animal and reducing it to a genetic mess that needs special care and precautions just to keep them alive? This is what I'm wondering after a few recent discussions on a dachshund email list I'm on. In the past couple weeks, I've seen messages from numerous people saying that because of the propensity for back problems, you shouldn't allow your dachshund to:
a. go up/down stairs (too jarring for their backs)
b. get on/off furniture (same as above)
c. run on uneven ground (same as above, and the twisting of them trying to maneuver)
d. jump up for toys (same as letter a)
e. walk/run on sand (too hard, too much resistance, the sand slipping out from under them is bad)
f. play with larger dogs (they might get knocked into or stepped on)
g. picked up with any less than two hands (it takes two hands to "properly" support their backs)
h. walked on a collar (the pulling puts stress on their backs, and if they go after something, it will jolt their backs)
i. play tug (too much stress on their backs)

Now, I let Annie do all that stuff, and maybe I'm just asking for trouble, but I feel that she's probably less likely to have serious back problems than dogs who are always pampered and coddled, because she's built up muscle tone and flexibility along her back, which helps to support it. The thing that gets me though is that they're supposed to be hunting dogs... how have we gone from a hunting dog, who was known for toughness and durability, to a dog that has to have its every move watched, and has to be treated with extra care in almost everything it does. Or is this just a lot of hype, being made worse by all the rumors causing owners not to properly exericse their dogs, predisposing them to these type of problems? I know that some breeds do have a higher propensity for certain problems, but is it really best to take such extreme precautions with EVERY dog of that breed, or is it actually hurting, because the dogs aren't used to that type of activity if they encounter it?

[Aroura]

I've got two words for you - selective breeding.
They may have been hunting dogs back then, but how many breeds these days can actually do what they were origionally bred for? Not many, they have been bred for looks, and with that their health has been comprimised.
I can't really give you advice reguarding the exercise thingie. Swimming and other such exercises are great for building muscles, but I'm not sure if stong muscles alone will protect such a back from too much stress - it will greatly help but if you look at the bone structure it is obvious that stairs etc can't really do much good. Its a pity that we've bred dogs in such a way that they can't even live their lives, but I guess the best we can do now is cater for their needs! :D

[Malamum]

If any can't do any of the things you listed then what is she supposed to do? Just sit on a pillow all day :-?

I don't think you are doing anything wrong or asking for trouble - you have to let her live her life as a dog.

[ellieangel]

I think you are right Gooey :wink:

We want a daxie in the future (major soft spot for them) and all that molly coddling would put me off,I have heard the thing about the stairs before but the rest seems a litle extreme,not running on even ground :o

I have a friend who has bernese mountain dogs and she lets them run with the other dogs from pups which is supposed to be a big no no but her last female lived to 11 (old for a berner).

Also I have not really done the right thing with Rio as some people will say that the bigger breeds should not run and bounce about until they are at least 18 months because of their hips but he has run with Ellie on walks from day one,maybe I will regret it in the future but I doubt it ,I think it is better for them to have a shorter more natural life than a longer restricted life.

[pei obssessed]

[quote name='ellieangel']I think it is better for them to have a shorter more natural life than a longer restricted life.[/quote]
agreed, agreed, agreed! :klacz: It's not the quantity that matters, but the quality :wink:

[courtnek]

dachsunds were bred that way for a specific reason....they chased vermin down holes into places that larger dogs with longer legs, and the shorter backs, couldnt slither into. Dachsunds can turn corners in a hole in a heartbeat.

I also agree that the quality of life is better than the quantity. Play with her, let her be a dog.....Do you want her to live to be 20 and never have any fun, or maybe 15 and have a full, happy life?

I think what you are doing is better. That's just my opinion, but I would never protect my dogs to the point that they couldnt be dogs and have fun....

[gooeydog]

Aroura, I understand what you're saying, but at the same time, there are still working dachshunds out there, and at the same time, the dachshund breed has always been long backed and short, so why did the early dogs not run into this problem as often? I wonder too if maybe by coddling the dogs, breeders/owners are not aware of health problems that would surface if the dogs were allowed to do things that are considered "too strenuous", and thus these dogs don't seem to develop problems (though they may still have factors that would cause them to have problems if they weren't coddled), and are allowed to pass on their genes, contributing to the next faulty generation, who WILL have problems if they do any of the "strenuous" things, but appear fine as long as coddled.

The thing that gets me too is that most of the owners that suggest these precautions think that the dogs love being "babied" like that. Looking at Annie, who is an independent little firecracker and thinks she can conquer the world all by herself, I have a hard time imagining her being treated like that and "enjoying" it. I DO worry about back problems, and I do not deliberately send her running up/down 10 flights of stairs a day, or diving off the top of the furniture, but IMO, there's a point where it stops being cautious and starts to become ridiculous.

BTW, all that wasn't directed to Aroura, just the first little bit. I got carried away :oops:

[bk_blue]

So right Gooey- Tomson (grandad's dachshund) is a tough little bugger who really doesn't like being mollycoddled. If he was given a choice between sitting in someone's lap being cuddled or running around playing tug he'd choose tug. Of course you worry a little about them but they are quite tough little dogs- as long as they aren't allowed to get fat and spoilt they should be fine, like most dogs. :)

[Rosebud]

:-?

After I got my IG from my sister, I called the breeder about her, the breeder was estactic that I would be able to do more for Sandy, but was concerned since I had two big dogs at the time (GSD & an Aus Shepard mix). She told me to be very careful letting her play with them, she said IG's bone were brittle and that Sandy's litter-mate broke two legs jumping off of the training table. I headed her warning very politely and let her play with the big dogs. I cannot tell you how many times my Sandy has been knocked down, stepped on and accidently kicked from being "in the way" and not once have I had to go to the vet over broken bones or any other injury. Sandy lives a full life and her bones are strong.

Now had I kept her crated and treated her like a glass dog I am sure that her bones would not have "set" and that she would ended up being a "fragile" dog.

:angel:

[mouseatthebusstop]

[quote name='pei obssessed'][quote name='ellieangel']I think it is better for them to have a shorter more natural life than a longer restricted life.[/quote]
agreed, agreed, agreed! :klacz: It's not the quantity that matters, but the quality :wink:[/quote]
I agree too

[Guest Anonymous]

coddling doesn't do any good. there [b]are[/b] two things you should avoid however, too many stairs and jumping [b]down[/b] (up isn't as bad by far), for example out of a car etc. - and that is because they are very predisposed to herniated disks. not a pretty thing to deal with, especially if they don't heal properly.

good muscle tone is important in dachshunds to support their back and far less likely to appear if a dog is well exercised. most dachshunds i see are either too fat or are lean but without real muscle tone because they hardly get any exercise. too many people mistake them for couch potato dogs, and they easily turn into just that if they don't get accustomed to regular exercise. it angers me every single time i hear "dachshunds are nice apartment dogs and don't need much exercise", because following that advice is the straightest way to develop yourself an animal that just fits all the "wiener dog" stereotypes to a T.

walking a mile a day is for example [b]not[/b] what i would consider exercise. it's a warm up if anything. lots of running, off leash if possible, is the best exercise you can offer a dachshund. contrary to what most people believe, they make great jogging partners too and are great on the hiking trail - after all they were bred for hunting, and not only in badger or fox holes, but also for tracking in dense undergrowth - NOT for sitting on people's laps all day.

personally i would also never buy a dachshund from a show line, no matter how "pretty" they look in all their "rare" colors. those animals are mostly so far removed from what a dachshund is supposed to be that it isn't even funny anymore. anyone who is considering getting one, do yourself a favor, buy from a working line and don't pick a pup because of the coat color. it's well worth the longer search for a good breeder who actually works his dachshunds.

[atghylin]

[quote]they are very predisposed to herniated disks[/quote]

I can tell you from personal experience that these are not pretty at all. My mom's Shih Tzu, Sammy, has recently recouperated from one. Sammy had tried to jump up onto Mom's chair the night it happened. He let out a scream mid-jump. After a month of sitting in my youngest son's baby bassinet unable to play due to doctor's orders of strict confinement he still has a slight limp in his back legs. He will never be able to walk normally again.

The morning I received the phone call from my mom I knew that something was dreadlyfully wrong from her voice. As soon as she told me what was wrong I went out to her place to wait by her side until the vet called to say that Sammy was going to be fine but they wanted to keep him overnight for observation. (She was told that he may never walk again) She was crying when I got there and continued to cry for most of the day. Being confined didn't help Sammy's temperment either... he was already a chubby, spoiled, little s**** to begin with, now it's even worse. He fully expects to be picked up and carried around as soon as he shows the slightest little sign of an injury. (I'd roll my eyes but my smilies aren't working)

JMTCW

Amanda

[courtnek]

[quote]too many people mistake them for couch potato dogs, and they easily turn into just that if they don't get accustomed to regular exercise[/quote]

I agree 100% with this. Like most dogs, this is a breed that was bred for a purpose...not to be a lap dog, but to hunt, in small enclosed places, like holes and tunnels...people NOW realize that BC's dont do well without stimulation, but no dog is happy as a couch potato unless that is what
they were bred to be...

Dachsunds are hunting dogs....they need exercise, and it's even good
for them to have "practice holes" that they can slither into and out of....

My foxhound enjoys herself chasing squirrels around the yard...I doubt I would trust her with any cat but mine (he is king of the castle and the dogs answer to him, and they KNOW it...lol) but I would not make her stop chasing squirrels...she is a hunting dog. she needs to run, to play with other dogs (raised in a pack of 20) and to hunt...you have to give them a little lattitude to be what WE designed them for...

:lol:

[gooeydog]

[quote name='Anonymous']there [b]are[/b] two things you should avoid however, too many stairs and jumping [b]down[/b] (up isn't as bad by far), for example out of a car etc. [/quote]
Yes, I can see those type of precautions, and follow them myself (ok, so she has flown off the kitchen table once or twice after being caught up there gnawing on someone's leftovers :-? , but for the most part I try to pick her up to get her out of the car, her crate, etc), but I think that several of the things I listed are a bit ridiculous.

[quote]good muscle tone is important in dachshunds to support their back and far less likely to appear if a dog is well exercised. most dachshunds i see are either too fat or are lean but without real muscle tone because they hardly get any exercise. too many people mistake them for couch potato dogs, and they easily turn into just that if they don't get accustomed to regular exercise. it angers me every single time i hear "dachshunds are nice apartment dogs and don't need much exercise", because following that advice is the straightest way to develop yourself an animal that just fits all the "wiener dog" stereotypes to a T.[/quote]
Very true... I think too that a lot of people get them because they're "cute", then don't want to deal with the fact that some are very high energy dogs. It seems to most of the "out of control" or "he attacks everyone he sees" dachshunds I've seen are just dogs who get nowhere near the amount of exercise they need, and have been allowed to do whatever they want, as long as they look cute and don't bother their owners too much.

[quote]walking a mile a day is for example [b]not[/b] what i would consider exercise. it's a warm up if anything. lots of running, off leash if possible, is the best exercise you can offer a dachshund. contrary to what most people believe, they make great jogging partners too and are great on the hiking trail - after all they were bred for hunting, and not only in badger or fox holes, but also for tracking in dense undergrowth - NOT for sitting on people's laps all day.[/quote]
Agreed. On average, Annie (10 lb mini) likes to be a "lapdog", once, maybe twice a week, usually first thing in the morning when I'm just waking up and the last thing I want is her breathing in my face and climbing all over me :roll: She demands at least an hr of running/playing catch a day, the rest of her time is spent barking, and dragging any available toy (as long as it's coated with slime) around to anyone she can find in hopes that she can annoy them to the point that they grab the toy and lob it through the house :lol:

[quote]personally i would also never buy a dachshund from a show line, no matter how "pretty" they look in all their "rare" colors. those animals are mostly so far removed from what a dachshund is supposed to be that it isn't even funny anymore. anyone who is considering getting one, do yourself a favor, buy from a working line and don't pick a pup because of the coat color. it's well worth the longer search for a good breeder who actually works his dachshunds.[/quote]
I don't know much about the show/working aspect of the breed, as Annie is neither (my aunt bought her from a local petstore :-? ), but would imagine it is like with any other breed, with the working dogs usually having better "real life" conformation, health, and drive. I do have a question for you though since you seem to know the working end of the breed pretty well... how would you compare their temperaments to those of the "pet"/show dogs (in reguards to both people and dogs)? I'm guessing that it would be something that depends on the individual line, but just a general idea...?

[quote]My foxhound enjoys herself chasing squirrels around the yard...I doubt I would trust her with any cat but mine (he is king of the castle and the dogs answer to him, and they KNOW it...lol) but I would not make her stop chasing squirrels...she is a hunting dog. she needs to run, to play with other dogs (raised in a pack of 20) and to hunt...you have to give them a little lattitude to be what WE designed them for... [/quote]
I agree completely. The situation I mentioned a few weeks ago with Annie diving under the shed after the groundhog (she still would, but I don't let her just run around down there anymore, if she starts to head over in that direction, I call her back), my aunt suggested that I "punish" her (her idea was to take her up and put her in the crate for the rest of the day, no wonder the dog acts like a savage when she goes over there to visit :roll: )for it... I'm not about to "punish" her for doing what instinct told her to do, especially when she was on "her" time (she wasn't in a heel, or under ANY type of command, and I wasn't even in sight, so she wasn't disobeying me in any way). I just don't see the reasoning behind getting a dog with strong hunting (or any type really) instincts if you absolutely DON'T want and/or can't deal with a dog who likes to hunt, chase, etc.

[Rowie-the-Pooh]

[quote]

coddling doesn't do any good. there are two things you should avoid however, too many stairs and jumping down (up isn't as bad by far), for example out of a car etc. - and that is because they are very predisposed to herniated disks. not a pretty thing to deal with, especially if they don't heal properly.

good muscle tone is important in dachshunds to support their back and far less likely to appear if a dog is well exercised. most dachshunds i see are either too fat or are lean but without real muscle tone because they hardly get any exercise. too many people mistake them for couch potato dogs, and they easily turn into just that if they don't get accustomed to regular exercise. it angers me every single time i hear "dachshunds are nice apartment dogs and don't need much exercise", because following that advice is the straightest way to develop yourself an animal that just fits all the "wiener dog" stereotypes to a T.

walking a mile a day is for example not what i would consider exercise. it's a warm up if anything. lots of running, off leash if possible, is the best exercise you can offer a dachshund. contrary to what most people believe, they make great jogging partners too and are great on the hiking trail - after all they were bred for hunting, and not only in badger or fox holes, but also for tracking in dense undergrowth - NOT for sitting on people's laps all day.

personally i would also never buy a dachshund from a show line, no matter how "pretty" they look in all their "rare" colors. those animals are mostly so far removed from what a dachshund is supposed to be that it isn't even funny anymore. anyone who is considering getting one, do yourself a favor, buy from a working line and don't pick a pup because of the coat color. it's well worth the longer search for a good breeder who actually works his dachshunds. [/quote]

[quote]Quote:
too many people mistake them for couch potato dogs, and they easily turn into just that if they don't get accustomed to regular exercise


I agree 100% with this. Like most dogs, this is a breed that was bred for a purpose...not to be a lap dog, but to hunt, in small enclosed places, like holes and tunnels...people NOW realize that BC's dont do well without stimulation, but no dog is happy as a couch potato unless that is what
they were bred to be...

Dachsunds are hunting dogs....they need exercise, and it's even good
for them to have "practice holes" that they can slither into and out of....

My foxhound enjoys herself chasing squirrels around the yard...I doubt I would trust her with any cat but mine (he is king of the castle and the dogs answer to him, and they KNOW it...lol) but I would not make her stop chasing squirrels...she is a hunting dog. she needs to run, to play with other dogs (raised in a pack of 20) and to hunt...you have to give them a little lattitude to be what WE designed them for...
[/quote]
Agreed. :wink:

Speaking of all the back problems, and breeding for show and etc. Do any of you know the Dandie Dinmont Terrier? Poor souls! The working lines are MUCH better than the show lines. I did a research on them once, and the show dogs are so low that their chests touch the ground! Even worse, their backs are really long. The one in my dog book has very short legs, a very long back, and his chest touches the ground! I went to the AKC website and saw a video of them, and the (what I think are) show Dandie's didn't run very well. :-?

[img]http://images.google.com/images?q=tbn:VTJrMLWepkoC:www.dogbiz.com/dogs-grp4/dandie-dinmont/images/dandie-dinmont-290x180-tig-256.gif[/img]
See what I mean? :roll:

[img]http://images.google.com/images?q=tbn:PUg_fGd6hz8C:www.petsmart.com/aspca/images/dogs/dandie_dinmont_terrier.jpg[/img]
[img]http://images.google.com/images?q=tbn:UM-vvuSXcmQC:www.saudeanimal.com.br/imagens/dandie.jpg[/img]
Remember, I'm not the breed's expert so please correct me if I'm wrong! :)

[Guest Anonymous]

[quote name='courtnek']Do you want her to live to be 20 and never have any fun, or maybe 15 and have a full, happy life?

I think what you are doing is better. That's just my opinion, but I[b] would never protect my dogs to the point that they couldnt be dogs and have fun...[/b].[/quote]
Well said Courtnek! I agree with you 100%

[Guest Anonymous]

gooeydog, the dachshunds from lines that are more focused on character/working are generally (can't lump any individuals from any lines together into a stereotype, but then you know that already :)) more "well-rounded" individuals that are not hyper, snappy, yappy, aggressive, timid or fearful.

while dachshunds generally don't put up with much nonsense (not a dog for very young kids!), they are supposed to be well-adjusted, confident and even tempered even in stressful/unfamiliar situations, highly intelligent and able to work on their own (this is why some people claim they are "hard to train").

your average dachshund these days, especially those from breeders who just breed for money, not even for conformation (which are the majority of puppies you see in pet stores and newspaper/internet ads) tends to resemble the "original" dachshund in looks, but seldom in character. timidity and fear aggression are often a problem.

[nadooshkinz]

[quote name='Anonymous'][quote name='courtnek']Do you want her to live to be 20 and never have any fun, or maybe 15 and have a full, happy life?

I think what you are doing is better. That's just my opinion, but I[b] would never protect my dogs to the point that they couldnt be dogs and have fun...[/b].[/quote]
Well said Courtnek! I agree with you 100%[/quote]

That was me guys :oops: ...
The computer didn't sign in for some reason! :roll:

[gooeydog]

[quote]more "well-rounded" individuals that are not hyper, snappy, yappy, aggressive, timid or fearful. [/quote]
Ahhh... what a pleasant change that would be from Annie :lol: . While she's not snappy, timid, or fearful anymore (though I still wouldn't call her "friendly", she's pretty aloof until she knows someone better), even at five years old, she's still climbing the walls unless she gets in her exercise every day, and screeches her head off anytime I crate her in my room (keep in mind here that we can crate her in the kitchen, no problem, and I can let her loose in there with Goo, not a peep out of her) and leave the house. She also quickly became known as "that loud little dachshund" at the training place we go to for her tracking classes... she whines while I'm getting ready in the morning, on the way there (intensifying as we go), then barks the whole time she's in her carrier before and after her turn. She doesn't have seperation anxiety, and she knows that barking/screeching/whining isn't going to get her out, so there's really no reason for it except for that being how she lets out some of her excitement.

[quote]while dachshunds generally don't put up with much nonsense (not a dog for very young kids!), they are supposed to be well-adjusted, confident and even tempered even in stressful/unfamiliar situations, highly intelligent and able to work on their own (this is why some people claim they are "hard to train"). [/quote]
She does rate pretty well on this one... definitely a smart and independent worker, extremely manipulative at times too :roll: She was pretty nervy when we got her, due largely in part to lack of socialization, but with a lot of work has turned out to be pretty stable, can be taken out, she even "played" a reindeer at the neighborhood store the Christmas before last, with kids coming up and petting her, some even holding her on their laps (as if that wasn't traumatizing enough, she had on a set of antlers with x-mas lights on them :lol: ).

[quote]your average dachshund these days, especially those from breeders who just breed for money, not even for conformation (which are the majority of puppies you see in pet stores and newspaper/internet ads) tends to resemble the "original" dachshund in looks, but seldom in character. timidity and fear aggression are often a problem.[/quote]
Agreed. Another question for you... what do you consider "work" for them? Are you speaking only in terms of dogs that are still used for hunting, or does your interpretation of the term carry out to things like earthdog trials, tracking, etc? I don't have plans for getting any more dogs anytime soon, nevermind a dachsie, but eventually I wouldn't mind getting one and possibly training it for SaR work or the like. It would be great if I could find a young rescue dog with the temperament I would like/need, but then I'd be concerned about the health/structure holding up for that type of work, so it's possible that I would end up going to a breeder for the dog. I know that in many breeds, "working" breeders take the purity/work ability of their dogs very seriously, and insist that any dogs of their breeding be used for what they were bred for, which could bring up some issues for me, since I have little desire to hunt with a dog. This would be years down the road if at all, but it's still something I wonder about, as I do feel for the most part that dogs bred/used for some type of work are usually better suited to work than dog bred for other purposes.

BTW, I'm assuming you have Dachshunds...? Any pictures of them? :lol:

[Guest Anonymous]

i am speaking on terms of breeders who breed their working dogs, animals generally used for hunting (tracking, groundwork) or the "sport" versions of the original hunting activities, like earthdog trials etc. - as opposed to breeders who do not take the nature of the breed and what it was developed for into consideration.

in my opinion it is pretty much the same situation with dachshunds as with jack russell terriers, except that the DH's are already much, much further removed from their "roots" and the JRT's have a strong backing from a breeder organization who do not want to see them heading the same way, especially now that they are AKC recognized.

personally i have never seen or heard of a DH in SAR, but i think it's a great idea and the dog could do well, especially in places where bigger dogs can't fit.

sadly, no dachshunds for me currently. but maybe again at some point in the future.

[gooeydog]

[quote]personally i have never seen or heard of a DH in SAR, but i think it's a great idea and the dog could do well, especially in places where bigger dogs can't fit.[/quote]

I actually checked into it a bit a few years back, there was one SAR group at a pet expo type thing I took Annie to (great chance to get her out and about amongst a lot of people and dogs), it wasn't anything national, just a local group. They said that they didn't accept dogs under 40 lbs, because they weren't agile/strong enough to make their way through rubble or cover much ground :-? I was a bit miffed at the time, because it seemed pretty stereotypical, and I think they may have been surpried at how well a drivey, determined small dog could do that type of work. Almost all of their dogs were labs, goldens, and mixes including those breeds, with I think one mutt and a GSD or GSD mix. I was thinking along the same lines as you though on the whole thing... a small dog would be able to work amongst rubble, bushes, etc, without disturbing things nearly as much as a larger dog, and the dachsie's natural aptitude for tunneling and tracking for make them especially adept at the job. No, they wouldn't perform the "big dog" functions as well as a big dog, but they very well might bring with them some assets that the larger dogs do not have, if that makes sense. I guess when the time comes, if I decide to try it, I'll have to see if I can find a group that will at least give us a chance to show the dog's capabilities, and not just write them off because they don't LOOK capable (not saying that that's necessarily a bad thing, as in many cases, they might be right) :lol: