Carolk9s Posted September 4, 2003 Share Posted September 4, 2003 Johnny, Yes, you are correct. The thread was in response to some questions some of us have about the term 'rolling' and how it relates to fighting. Thank you for providing some answers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Anonymous Posted September 4, 2003 Share Posted September 4, 2003 I wonder what would have been said if had been two goldens, or perhads a couple of labs or poodles. not to pick on any breed because no breed deserves it, but those seem to be americas sweet hearts. but because it was vicious pit bulls the guy gets a slap on the wrist and a fine. :motz: :mad22: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ellieangel Posted September 4, 2003 Author Share Posted September 4, 2003 Food for thought R & P :( Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Malamum Posted September 5, 2003 Share Posted September 5, 2003 Johnny, Sorry if I was rude. Your first post was exactly what we were after - a definition of what rolling was. However I was a little scared that your second post was leaning towards giving pointers and I didn't really want to encourage that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Anonymous Posted September 5, 2003 Share Posted September 5, 2003 Hey, it's cool, I understand where you're coming from. Most people cannot accept this breed, let alone what makes it great. My second post regarding age was meant to keep novices from matching puppies. The dogs are not physically mature until 18-24mo. The teeth and bones are not set. Mentally they might be ready at a few weeks, or it might take three years; every dog is different. However, I was definately not trying to give pointers. In fact I wish I could discourage people from owning these dogs. What this breed needs is a little break from the spotlight. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aroura Posted September 5, 2003 Share Posted September 5, 2003 [quote name='Johnny']Hey, it's cool, I understand where you're coming from. Most people cannot accept this breed, let alone what makes it great.[/quote] Johnny, we accept the breed - in fact we love the breed! If we didn't love them so much there wouldn't be so much controversy over them because we simply wouldn't care that there are so many unscrupulous people out there who actually take pleasure in seeing their loyal companion get hurt. What makes the breed great has nothing to do with its fighting ability, its the loyalty and big heart that makes this breed one of a kind, some people just can't see that :-? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sanvean Posted September 5, 2003 Share Posted September 5, 2003 [quote name='Aroura']What makes the breed great has nothing to do with its fighting ability, its the loyalty and big heart that makes this breed one of a kind, some people just can't see that :-?[/quote] Well said! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Anonymous Posted September 6, 2003 Share Posted September 6, 2003 Fighting "ability" has nothing to do with it. A dog doesn't have to be a great fighter to be worthy of breeding. He must be game though, meaning he did not quit when put behind. Every characteristic of this breed that people love comes from generations and generations of dogmen testing their stock and breeding for gameness. When gameness is the main focus everything else falls in line. Except those smiles, I don't know where they came from, but you have to love them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carolk9s Posted September 6, 2003 Share Posted September 6, 2003 Johnny, I appreciate your time in answering these questions. I have a couple more and they are purely questions as I am curious and interested in your OPINION. I have no desire on intention of being critical of your answers, I'm just trying to understand. First, I am 'assuming' that testing for gameness is another way of saying rolling or fighting the dogs? Is that the only test for gameness or are there others? If the only or even main test for gameness is rolling, does this, in your opinion, automatically-irrefutably-without a doubt-no two ways about it mean the dog is NOT human aggressive? No way, never, not gonna happen? Is it possible to have a dog that tested game and for that dog to at some point in his/her life exhibit inappropriate aggression towards a person? I ask because this is what I 'believe' is what has been said though not in exact words. That or I'm just dense. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Anonymous Posted September 6, 2003 Share Posted September 6, 2003 I want to answer but i will let the guest go first. I am very curious to your answers too, good ones Carolk9s Johnny why dont you register with dogo? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Anonymous Posted September 6, 2003 Share Posted September 6, 2003 Carolk9s, Yes the only way to test a dog's gameness is to fight it. A dog must be faced with a situation that would make it want to quit. In a fight they will be hurt and tired, maybe losing badly. A game dog will continue to go as if he thinks he's winning. No other activity can produce such a situation. Sure they can have tremendous drive and tenacity, or whatever else you want to call it, but that is not gameness. That same drive can be found in any breed. Secondly, as we all know, every dog is different. Of course gametesting a single dog will not guarantee he is perfectly stable. However, gametested stock over many generations only becomes more and more stable, as the manbiters are culled from the breeding program. Your chances of getting a stable bulldog are much higher w/ a game dog or at least one that is game bred. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DogPaddle Posted September 6, 2003 Share Posted September 6, 2003 I always hear this argument: Gamebred dogs are [i]more[/i] stable. Just my opinion and observations here but: Your chance of getting a human agressive dog or an unstable dog is equally low when you get a dog bred for generations by responsible breeders who breed for temperment (amongst other things.) You don't need a gamebred dog to have a stable dog. The only reason to have a gamebred dog, as far as I can see, is to have a dog that is "game." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aroura Posted September 7, 2003 Share Posted September 7, 2003 Yes DogPaddle!!! :klacz: Great point, couldn't have said it better myself! :wink: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mydogroxy Posted September 7, 2003 Share Posted September 7, 2003 i would venture to say that most abpt's today are not gamebred, dogpaddle. but there are some who believe that gameness is an important characteristic of the breed. just like retrieving is to goldens and labs. that is why it is still bred for. those who do breed for gameness DO breed for good temperment, also. dogs who have what would be called poor temperment (ie. human aggression, shyness, fearful) are culled. [color=red]The only reason to have a gamebred dog, as far as I can see, is to have a dog that is "game."[/color] point #1: not all dogs that are gamebred are game. you only know if a dog is game if it is gametested. point #2: roxy is gamebred. the man we bought her from has around 5 dogs, obviously used for fighting in his yard, well taken care of might i add. i do not by any means agree with dogfighting but i did want a gamebred dog. not so i could say she was game or so i could fight her or so i could think i was tough by way of my dog. she is an abpt and i think that gameness is an important trait of the breed, as it has been a part of the breed for a very looong time. ( i do realize that being for gameness and against fighting is a contradiction, and i do struggle with it. ) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DogPaddle Posted September 7, 2003 Share Posted September 7, 2003 I think overall we are agreeing with each other here Mydogroxy. I understand that not all dogs that are gamebred are game nor are they all tested for gameness, however, if you a specifically breeding game dogs or looking for a dog from game lines (or a gamebred dog) than the goal (although not the gaurenteed result) is to have a dog that is game or has a game temperment (whether you make use of this or test for it or not.) I understand that breeders who breed for gameness [b]ALSO[/b] breed for temperment. And [i]this[/i] is the reason for the dogs stability (the breeding for temperment part not the breeding for gameness part as they are two seperate traits - and I am fully aware that they are in no way mutually exclusive.) I respect that you oppose fighting and that you clearly state: [quote]i did want a gamebred dog[/quote] without linking it to stability. As I understand it you wanted a gamebred dog that IS ALSO stable. I also respect that you evaluate yourself: [quote]i do realize that being for gameness and against fighting is a contradiction, and i do struggle with it.[/quote] So many people are quick to rationalize their behaviour and that is in no way what you have done. I just wish all these people who argue for fighting would stop throwing the stability issue into things - its just not related or relevent - Most Schutzhund trained dogs are wonderfully stable but that does not meen that everyone should have - in fact very few people should have one and they server an important role in society whith police forces. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
courtnek Posted September 7, 2003 Share Posted September 7, 2003 [quote]I wonder what would have been said if had been two goldens, or perhads a couple of labs or poodles. not to pick on any breed because no breed deserves it, but those seem to be americas sweet hearts. but because it was vicious pit bulls the guy gets a slap on the wrist and a fine[/quote] They would have said "in an abnormal scenario, a loving family dog ripped off half of a childs face.." it happened here. IT'S JUST WRONG!!!! :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carolk9s Posted September 8, 2003 Share Posted September 8, 2003 Thanks again Johnny for answering my questions. I forgot to mention I would be away all weekend at agility trials which is why I'm late replying. I'm also exhausted! Your answers are pretty much what I expected but I wanted to hear it from someone in the know instead of simply relying on long held beliefs. I feel DogPaddle is really onto something saying breeding for temperament is the big key. Mydogroxy, please understand I'm not picking on you here, you say you got Roxy from a man with gamebred dogs. Haven't you had some concerns about Roxy's temperament? Again I am NOT in any way trying to poke a stick at you, just trying to remember what I've read and all. Seems like if Roxy is from gamebred dogs, and her temperament has caused you some concern, it kinda flies in the face of the assertation that gamebred dogs are more stable. I do know even when dogs are bred for sound temperaments some dogs just have ideas of their own about that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mydogroxy Posted September 8, 2003 Share Posted September 8, 2003 carol, i don't think you're picking on me at all. and yes you are right, i have a million and one concerns about roxy's temperment. the only reason i continue to work with her is because her instabilities are a result of neglect and abuse as a puppy, rather than poor temperment as a result of poor breeding. she has been improving since we got her and has infact made great strides in the past few weeks. if there ever came a point where she ceased to improve and was a danger to anyone, i would have no qualms about putting her down. it has crossed my mind before, in certain instances where she has gotten out of hand, but her improved behavior gives me hope. in my opinion, there is a great difference in dogs with issues because of prior treatment and those with inherent issues. others may disagree... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DogPaddle Posted September 8, 2003 Share Posted September 8, 2003 Good to hear your making progress with Roxy, you must be putting lots of work into it. :bigok: I must have missed some of Roxies history. I just have a question based on what I read in this thread: [quote]roxy is gamebred. the man we bought her from has around 5 dogs, obviously used for fighting in his yard, [color=darkblue]well taken care of might i add[/color][/quote] [quote]the only reason i continue to work with her is because her instabilities are a [color=indigo]result of neglect and abuse as a puppy[/color], rather than poor temperment as a result of poor breeding. [/quote] Did you take Roxy right home from the breeders or has she lived somewhere else at any point? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mydogroxy Posted September 9, 2003 Share Posted September 9, 2003 good question. the man we got roxy from was the owner of the bitch. there was some time however, that she and some of her littler spent living with the owner of the stud dog (why i don't know). at three months, she and her one remaining brother were sent back to the original guy, because he was "having trouble" controlling the kids with the dogs. we got roxy a short time after. we do know that she was abused in the home with children. we can't be sure, but we also suspect that the man we got her from may have mistreated her too (he only keeps one girl dog because he "doesn't like females"). there's also a world of difference between the way some people treat their own dogs, as opposed to ones they have no real interest in. we'll never know the real extent of what happened to her, but we know for sure her first few months were rough. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carolk9s Posted September 9, 2003 Share Posted September 9, 2003 aurora, I have the utmost respect for you and that you are working diligently to smooth out any rough edges Roxy may exhibit. I wish you and Roxy continued success and great things! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DogPaddle Posted September 9, 2003 Share Posted September 9, 2003 [quote]we'll never know the real extent of what happened to her, but we know for sure her first few months were rough.[/quote] Too bad you can't find out exactly what happened, it would probably be a little easier to address her issues that way. Good for you for keeping at it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Anonymous Posted September 9, 2003 Share Posted September 9, 2003 K said..[quote]I want one because I am the worlds biggest sucker for a pretty smile.. [/quote] K, get yourself somewhere it is legal to own one of these beautiful animals and you can have your pick from my yard. Gameness is something that really cannot be defined. It is also something you really cant understand until you see it. It is very unfortunate that so many people will breed these dogs paying no mind to gameness. Maybe I am wrong but I truely believe most of the dogs causing the problems for this breed are not gamebred. Like it was pointed out, gamebred dogs are bred for their temperment towards people as well. People biters should not be, and usually arent bred. Has anyone not noticed the change this breed has gone through since matching has become illegal? Since some people quit paying attention to breeding for gameness? Back in the day when it was legal this breed was used as a symbol of the USA. They were looked upon as if they were kings of the dog world. It was becasue of their gameness, their never quit attitude. Now, they are looked upon as a dangerous animal that will bite for any reason. But it is those of us that continue to breed for gameness and match our dogs that are ruining the breed?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Anonymous Posted September 9, 2003 Share Posted September 9, 2003 First I am against dog fighting...BUT I have been tossing that thought around for quite some time!! It is just perplexing to me how a dog can go from being the love of the nation to public enemy number one is so short a time. I chalk it up to bad breeders and worse owners. Hmmmm i see where your coming from and hear you loud and clear. for all the attacks on people and the human aggression a ridiculously small umber of those can actaully be attributed to real APBTs, and of those that are actually APBTs how many would you think came from a game-bred heritage? My guess none. theses dogs are as proned- to be people friendly as they are to be dog aggressive, some arent but they are by far the minority. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carolk9s Posted September 9, 2003 Share Posted September 9, 2003 Hmmm said: Has anyone not noticed the change this breed has gone through since matching has become illegal? A quote from [url]http://www.peoriahs.org/dogfighthistory.htm[/url] (Now I'll admit I do NOT know exactly how accurate this entire site is. ) [b]During the 1860s, the 'sport' was made illegal in most states in the U.S. [/b] So that was a bit before my time therefore I have NOT noticed such a change in perception. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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