My local dog park is being overrun!

[slim86]

Thank you for your comments as well Rott-N-Pitt. I feel much better now.

[bullygirl29532]

well said goo and Rott. i'm glad there are others here that have the patience and couth i lack. One little known fact the shar pei was once considered the chinese fighting dog.

[pei obssessed]

Little known like hell! :roll: I was talking about this in another post, but this--the fighting-- happenned for such a short time (for God's sake, they were farm dogs for hundreds of years before that, but everybody seems to have forgotten that part), and breeders nowadays breed them for good temperment and friendly attitude towards both people and other dogs. Belive me, the STUPID comments I had to listen to at the park with my Hippo (who's a mini Pei--about 30 lb) who's shown no signs of aggression ever... One particular lady angered me :evil: she had a German shepard (fully grown) and said "Oh, you're gonna get hurt, these dogs are fighting dogs, it's their instinct to fight!" And lil Hippo was just sniffing hello her dog :o
I guess there's no point in going into this again, but the labels that people tend to put on dogs make me mad :chainsaw1:

[gooeydog]

It's very possible that theycould draw blood just in play, especially if they never learned bite inhibition as pups. Most pit bulls do play roughly with other dogs (when we had a pit/JRT mix foster a few years ago, she used to chase Goo through the house, dive on her back, then hang by a chunk of Goo's scruff until Goo shook her off, and Goo loved every second of it), so I'd imagine that if they were unmannerly little beasts, they could draw blood and make enough noise to convince you that they were actually fighting. It could have also been just a little scrap, but from what you've said, it still doesn't sound like they really wanted to hurt your dog. Also, the weight range you mentioned isn't uncommon in pit bulls, most range between 30-70 lbs, with some being a little larger or smaller. The two we have here are 52 (just right) and 60 (we need to work off the winter fat :lol: she should be around 56 by the end of spring).

I don't particularly like dog parks, so what I'm about to say may be a bit biased, but here goes... I don't think that mature (in this case, over 8 months) dogs of bull breeds (APBTs, AmStaffs, Staffy Bulls, ABs) belong at dog parks or anywhere else where large numbers of unfamiliar dogs are running about offleash. It's one thing to get together with a few other dog owners who understand your breed and let the dogs have a romp around a baseball field or yard... or even to go to the dogpark during "off" hours with those people and their dogs that you know. First, pit bulls already have a high probability of becoming dog aggressive, so why tempt fate with all those chances to realize just how much they enjoy fighting. All it takes is for another dog to find a stick and come after your dog over it, and they may end up defensive around strange dogs for life. Couple that with their natural tendencies to fight rather than run, and you may end up with a dog that won't tolerate strange dogs anywhere near them. Couple that with the fact that if there ever IS an incident involving your dog (even if your dog didn't start it), your dog will take all the blame, and may pay with their life if the other dog's owners/other people in attendance put up enough of a fight, and it just doesn't seem worth it to me.

[Queen Bitch]

Rottnpit, you summed up what I was going to say quite nicely about the boxer issue. I too don't see Slim's logic of not going where there are APBTs , when it was the boxer that started it in the first place.

[bullygirl29532]

"gooydog. I like you already. That was exactly the info I was looking for. I was not trying to upset anyone. I was just looking for info."

[color=red]now just where exactly was a question in any of your posts ? did I miss it.[/color]

[courtnek]

Ok people - ENOUGH!

I understand being loyal to your breed
I understand being obviously upset about your dog being attacked
I understand that it is not always the dog's fault....

BUT

APBT's are known to be animal aggressive. That is a FACT, it was what they were bred for. THEREFORE - If you have a dog aggressive breed, you
need to keep it on lead until you see how it reacts to other animals.
The other dogs and owners have a right to be there too, without being attacked. It's not the owners FAULT that the dog is aggressive; it is, however, his RESPONSIBILITY to make sure that his animal does not hurt anyone or anything else. I have nothing against APBT's, except the fact that owners who know nothing about them and let them run free should be held legally responsible for any damage they inflict. Perhaps then people
would realize that owning a dog is a responsibility, and YOU are responsible for whatever the dog does.....

[bullygirl29532]

let them run free should be held legally responsible for any damage they inflict
[color=red]aren't all dog owners ALREADY legally responsible for their animals ?[/color]

The other dogs and owners have a right to be there too

[color=blue]no one said other wise but why can't everyone (human that is) get along and play nice? ya kno share.[/color]

That is a FACT, it was what they were bred for.
[color=green]and Dalmations were bred to run in front of fire engines so what's your point. are you saying a zebra can't change it's stripes?[/color]

[Horsefeathers!]

I kinda sorta have a problem with people who erroneously believe (about Pits) that their dispositions come SOLELY from their upbringing and socialization. It ain't so. I adore my Pit as much as anyone, but I know she is dog aggressive. She was socialized from 5 weeks on, raised around other dogs her entire life and is excellent in obedience. However, she is extremely dog aggressive and would just as soon kill another female dog as to look at one. No way would I ever take her into a dog park.

Only a couple of years ago, I also believed that ANY dog, Pits included, would be a "good" dog, raised right, and would never have believed for a moment that whole business of "what they were bred for" (fighting). After the problems we began having and doing a lot of research and also now working with a behaviorist, I know that dog aggression in Pits DOES indeed come naturally. While I'm not saying that every Pit will be dog aggressive, I am saying I would never trust one NOT to be. I think any Pit owner should be aware that it is a characteristic they may have to deal with and be prepared for it.

Most people (at least in my area) own Pits as status symbols without truly understanding the breed. Knowing this, there is no way I would ever take, say, my Poodle into a dog park with a loose roaming Pit Bull. The chances of it being a responsible, knowledgeable Pit owner (again, in my area) are slim to none. Just like many people own Poodles as fashion accessories, many people own Pits for that tough guy image with absolutely no knowledge of what makes them tick. If this makes me a "breed racist"(?), oh well, but I don't believe an open dog park is a proper place for MOST Pits (or any ill behaved dog, but since we are speaking of Pit Bulls...). The word "most" is to leave an open for the atypical ones who adore romping with other dogs. Hey, stranger things have happened.

[courtnek]

people can "change their stripes" - we were granted with the ability to choose. Animals are kinda stuck with what nature gave them and what training we can provide. Bully. my rant was not against Pit's, but against
people who dont realize that theur animal COULD have aggressive tendencies and needs, like any other animal, to be controlled until those tendencies are proven or denied. We are responsible for them. We need
to decide how they behave. I am not saying that it is ONLY Pits with these tendencies, any dog can have them. But Pits have shown themselves to be
prone to dog aggression - therefore they need to be handled more carefully and more closely. They need to be watched more carefully.
As stated, I have nothing against Pits. But in all honestly there is not alot we can do against breeding and instinct. The dog is not to blame. The owner ( no matter WHAT breed) needs to know how his/her dog will react, and plan accordingly.

[bk_blue]

[quote name='mydogroxy']
and on a side note, i take some offense to the comment that dog aggressive pit bulls are the result of bad owners who don't socialize their dogs. [/quote]

Sorry if you thought I was saying this- what I meant to say is that the ABPT is bred to be dog aggressive and always has been as part of their function, there may be a few who aren't but if this is what they've been bred for it's probably going to come out sometime (like heelers and herding/ankle biting). Nothing to do with how responsible or irresponsible an owner is. :)
If a dog is dog aggressive, no matter what breed, they should be on lead. There was a nasty blue heeler who used to go to our dog park and would snap at any dog who came near (he was on lead). There was also an aggressive Golden Retriever that I saw once and once only. :-? Conversely, there is a female Dobermann who is the sweetest thing in the whole world and will play with everyone, and once there was a goofy male Boxer who BK played with for about an hour with nobody getting hurt. :)

[Guest Anonymous]

totally agree. there is a point where a pit bull will turn on but some dont do that for years and what is being said here is that all pit bulls are mean.
Now i know that one day my Drey will mature and not be as loving as he is now... ONE DAY. i am very watchful of his behavior and know his signs. He loves everything most pit bulls do as puppies. now once a dog shows signs of aggression by all means they should not be allowed off-lead in a dog run area, but until then regardless of breed there is no need to railroad them out of the park. Case by Case. meaning if you have a poodle that is vicious it should be asked to leave too. i cant even begin to count the number of vicious chihuahuas and toy breeds we run across and eveyone thinks its so cute that this little dog is chasing around bigger dogs? what is that... why is it cute for a dog to show aggression at an size? Some people. :roll:

courtnek is right all dogs have instincts of some kind with a bully its to fight. a responsible owners knows this and should strive to keep thier dogs in line. You have to know your dog and its limits and when to step in and grab him. Some people are afraid to correct thier dogs in public, they half-heartedly call thier dog when it does wrong, nipping, playing too rough, jumping on people or what have you. The dogs develop a pack mentality in the dog park so it is that much harder to control your dog off lead. when you get a group of dogs together it is easy for play to get too rough. not neccesarily a fight but when you re dealing with pack animals and they form a loose pack there is bound to be a little pecking and squabbles at sometime. People should have to understand dog behavior before they even go to a dog park, dogs play if you dont want your dog to be roughed up or rolled in the dirt you probably dont want to go to a dog park at all you might just want to keep your dog at home or go to a friends house to play with other dogs that are gentle. just an idea

[courtnek]

BK - THANK YOU!!

everyone thinks Goldens are as sweet as pie - most of them are - BUT NOT ALL!!

Most people think that all labs are "great with kids" (just like goldens)
My Lab mix ISNT...I know that....I dont let children approach her unless she seems willing to see them.

And as far as my post about legal responsbility - yes, ALL owners
should be legally responsible for what their dogs do. regardless of breed.

If I was an ignorant dog owner I would assume that Freebee would be
GREAT with kids, because she is part lab....As a responsible dog owner I watch her reactions and realize that SOME kids tick her off. I watch her reactions before I decide if anyone can pet her. If I make a mistake
and she bites someone, then I AM RESPONSIBLE. No Matter what.

[mydogroxy]

bk- i was actually talking about a comment pei made. :D

[bullygirl29532]

HF I may think many things about you but a breed racist isn't one of them :lol: [size=2]that was a good hearted joke to anyone that's gonna jump on me for being HF aggressive[/size]

When it comes to dog parks i still believe it should be on a case by case judgment. or a breed section. when i lived in vermont at the dog park by my house we had fenced in areas. 1 for big dogs. 1 for small dogs. A huge field for fresbe playing. each area had a trach can and little dispensers for baggies donated by local businesses.

I still say if slim had actually asked a question, instead of blowing off steam about how he can't go to a park due to APBTs, it wouldn't have gone down like this.

[Marble]

[quote name='"courtnek"']BK - THANK YOU!!

everyone thinks Goldens are as sweet as pie - most of them are - BUT NOT ALL!!

i was working for a lady once who owned a beautiful, very gentle whippet. i commented on how sweet she was and the lady told me about how she used to love to walk her all around her neighborhood, on leash of course, but she said there are golden retrievers in every yard and one day when she was walking her little whippet some psycho golden ret came tearing out it's yard to fast for the lady to react and it bit her dog so badly she had to take her to the vet to get her sown up. so now her nice dog is terrified of all other dogs.

[bk_blue]

[quote name='mydogroxy']bk- i was actually talking about a comment pei made. :D[/quote]

sorry Roxy, just thought I should make myself clear though :oops: :D

[bullygirl29532]

One more thing: Anyone who doesn't think or expect an APBT to show aggression of some kind is indeed a fool. anyone who doesn't think any dog can bite is fooling only themselves. But there are people out there who are ruining the APBT breed standard in 2 ways. I wouldn't let my dog run loose with smaller, weaker dogs he might think it's a snack. If i go to the swamp and i'm out numbered by these breeds we walk on. But if i'm there first w/ 2 APBTs and a Rottweiler, the odd man out should just walk on by.
some are trying to breed dog aggression out of them. while others are trying to breed human aggression into them. you lose a part of the APBT when you do either.
For those of you in the north remember in the 1980's? do you know what the hated breeds of the time where? Dobermans and GSD. or at least in NJ that's the way it was due to their human aggression.

[courtnek]

That's pretty much what i said Bully- The GSd's the Rotties, and Dobies, they all got marked...

The bullies are being marked now.....

Hopefully this will pass, when the "macho-I-gottA-HAVE A-TOUGH-DOG"
faze will pass..hopefully soon...

[Queen Bitch]

I don't even want to think about what he next "tuff guy" breed will be. :x


Chihuahua maybe? Instead of one dog, all the tuff "macho" guys will have a pack of them and they will just swarm the other dogs or people like a school of piranah....

[Guest Anonymous]

not soon enough. they are also draggin Canes, Presas, and Neos into this one. breeding them and starting a new breed "the american Bandogge mastiff" also called a bandog. They are being marketed as a guard dog breed and "ultimate family guardian" looks like the bad just got worse.

[Aroura]

[quote name='bullygirl29532']I still say if slim had actually asked a question, instead of blowing off steam about how he can't go to a park due to APBTs, it wouldn't have gone down like this.[/quote]

I agree 100%!!!! I've just been sitting here reading this post in amazement, it wasn't the breed that was the problem, or even the particular dog.... IT WAS THE OWNERS!
It makes me so angry when irrisponsible owners don't control their dogs and so people come up with comments like the "Pits should be banned from dog parks"... why? It should be stupid owners that don't control their dogs that should be banned, not the dog. A Pit, provided it has a good, responsible owner, has just as much right to be at a dog park as any other breed. It could have been any breed of dog that started the fight, its the owners responsibility to know their dogs limits. There is a Pit at dog training which is one of the friendliest dogs I've ever met, the GSD on the other hand will attack anything that moves, just because the owner isn't always responsible enough to know its limits doesn't mean I'll jump on here saying that all GSDs should be banned from dog parks does it?
And then there's the issue of if the dog [i]does[/i] get into a fight, will you stand back and watch the owner of the attacked dog try to sort it out? NO! Lily is great when she is off the lead, plays and runs to her hearts content... but if a fight does break out for whatever reason I'll risk an arm to stop it, she is [i]my[/i] responsibility and I wont stand back and let her give the breed a bad name, as these owners so obviously have done :evil:
Sorry if I'm rambling, but I just get so furious at some peoples ignorance!!! :evil: (not neccissarily anyone here, mostly aimed at the owners of those dogs!!!)
My friends dog was being savagely attacked by a saint bernard the other day while the owner casually called their dog back over the fence, my friend was scared to intervene as she thought the massive dog would turn on her. I guess what I'm trying to say is that some people just shouldn't own dogs :wallbash:

[bullygirl29532]

AMEN to that Aroura. :thumbs:

[Mary's Mama]

RnP - Nice to see you again. I never said they were monsters. You all know that I do not hold stereotypical views of pits. No one in this thread said all pit bulls are bad. There is no BSL at our dog park. If there was I couldn't go. Someone requested that all Jack Russells be banned. Dont think I dont understand your plight. However, every pit that has entered has gone through the warning process and been banned individually due to their own behavior, which is no fault of their own. It is their genetics and owners as has been repeated many times. However, they are all given the chance to try it, to prove themselves a "good boy". We have also banned other individuals that consist of a husky, a shar pei mix, boxers, many of which are intact males.

As Goo said the problem is that the dog park is a place of heightened arousal to begin with. There is already a serious potential for altercations between all the dogs. Pits however are more likely to get involved in a already started fight (not necessiarily to start the fight but rather to join in) and once involved have the ability to inflict much more damage and are much more difficult to gain control of. Most fights start as simple posturing and warning and most breeds will do this to try to avoid a fight. The pits I have witnessed have no "warning period". They are breed to fight and given the oppportunity will. They go from waggin tail to malice in an instant. I believe they dont really even know what they are doing. It is an instinct they can't control.

Alot of pit owners, especially first time owners have a misconception that their dog is different. Yes it will be playful and social for a while during its puppyhood but there will come a time that natural instincts will kick in. Unfortunately the owners learn this lesson at others expense. It is not fair to always blame the victim.

The last thing I have to say is...for those pit owners that consistantly cry the "its the bad owners that give the dogs a bad name story"... If you want to help your breeds reputation why not get involved in the breed community and do an outreach program to the "uneducated" owners. That is where you will turn the future of the breed around. Harping at the victims not to blame all pit bulls is solving nothing. It is kind of like crying wolf, everytime I hear the story it looses less value with me. So if you truly care, do something constructive about it.


[quote=ROTT'N'PIT]But oh well MY 2 cents.

Initially i was worried about his topic but it looks like we are working it out nicely.
Marysmama pit bulls are not monsters. they are dogs just like yours. they are individuals some are good with other dogs others are not. This sounds like dog park BSL to me. I took drey to the dog park for the first time yesterday he was great he played with dogs of all sizes and had a good time he slep like a baby when we got home. there was another guy there too. when we got there he was holding his dog it had blood on its face and about 20 feet from him was another guy with a pit bull and his dog was bruises too. now the average person would assume the pit bull attacked, WRONG. the boxer ran up to and attacked the pit bull while it was on lead! now did anyone say that all boxers should be banned? they are all chattering about how vicious pit bulls are, you read right the other dog started the fight and they still blamed the pit bull.

bullygirl is right dont lump them into vicious listing some are bad (at no fault of thier own) they are fighting owners and genetics, so when you see a good boy you better believe that is a GOOD BOY.

as always goo is right good owners know thier dog and dont let them run free in a dog park if they are aggressive and at the first sign of aggression they stop going. it people that think its cool to see a dog try to fight barking and snarling and then they praise the dog telling it that its doing good. and then put into a similar situation off-lead. (why you would do this, i dont know)

Slim i know how it is and i know how you feel, but dont think that all APBTs are monsters, the breeding dictates that they are not dog friendly but are tremendous family and people dogs. I have seen a great many of people aggressive GSDs but i dont let thatturn me off about the breed. and marysmamam we are not even gonna talk about how mean Jack Russels can be, because they are individual dogs.

not every pit bull is a mean pit bull[/quote]

[Guest Anonymous]

[quote=ROTT'N'PIT]there is a point where a pit bull will turn on but some dont do that for years and what is being said here is that all pit bulls are mean.
Now i know that one day my Drey will mature and not be as loving as he is now... ONE DAY. i am very watchful of his behavior and know his signs. He loves everything most pit bulls do as puppies. [/quote]

What makes you think you will be able to prevent him from attacking another dog? Are you gonna wait til the day he attacks another dog to stop taking him. What if it was your dog that got attacked just so some pit owner could learn a lesson? It is not fair to put all of the other dogs at risk. It is my opinion that waiting for the "day" is irresponsible and unfair to the other owners in the park. Regardless of breed, if you have reason to believe your dog may at some time attack, you should not be there.