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Sabine

Why is it..........?

Are you for or against docking/cropping ?  

  1. 1. Are you for or against docking/cropping ?

    • I think it looks good, and the dog will get over his pain.
    • I think it's cruel, and dogs should be left as nature intended them to be.
    • I don't really care


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I often wondered about one thing: Why hasn't cropping and docking been outlawed in the US yet? :o :(
I only know, that in most of Europe NO dog born after 1998 can be cropped. Since cropping is considered an amputation from a surgical standpoint, I find it rather cruel. Docking tails isn't quite as dramatic, but it takes away an important "tool" of dog-communication.............. :(

What's your opinion ? :wink:

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i don't agree with ethier of your choices.....
if the cropping/docking if done correctly the dogs don't feils any pain and if he do fells somthing it shorts and ends right there.
i loov doking and croping when is done professionaly and on the right dog, a good clean cut that eals well turn to look beatifull and never disturbs the dog

here a beatifull cropping of a doberman, well done and looks great
[img]http://www.molosserdogs.com/modules/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/b.jpg[/img]

that's also a good cropping for a dog
.[img]http://www.molosserdogs.com/modules/coppermine/albums/userpics/labordayshowdown/006_6d.jpg[/img]

for me THATS a bad cropping of a dog, the dog have no ear left on him and it looks ugly
[img]http://www.molosserdogs.com/modules/coppermine/albums/userpics/11127/canecorso.jpg[/img]

*i'm sorry if the pics aren't use as there owners will want them too, i don't want to insult anybody and only want to show my point, the dogs tem self are beatifull .

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Pardon upon, Irena - how come that cropped puppies bleed, cry and squeal a lot when they try to play ? :o If I wanted a dog with pointy ears, than I get one that's already been bred that way. Why mess with nature, because WE think it looks good? :o No pun intended - but cropping is ampuation, and why AMPUTATE something, that's perfectly healthy? I don't get it !! :oops:

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If I was for something like this I'd be for circumcision.. I totally disagree with altering bodies even if it is animals-- (other then spading, and neuturing). Just don't think it's necessary.

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[quote name='Sabine']Pardon upon, Irena - how come that cropped puppies bleed, cry and squeal a lot when they try to play ? :o If I wanted a dog with pointy ears, than I get one that's already been bred that way. Why mess with nature, because WE think it looks good? :o No pun intended - but cropping is ampuation, and why AMPUTATE something, that's perfectly healthy? I don't get it !! :oops:[/quote]

when you saw that puppys squeal and cry when they under anaesthesia? cropping done in older ages when it's possible to put a puppy in anaesthesia for this matters.
each to his own, i love good and proffesional cropping, that done correctly and not because the owners whanrs his dog to look "cool"
everyting human race does with anything in breeding is massing around with natuare......
i love cropped and docked dogs, no chenge of that, but i also hate those who will do it for the coolnest it brings and because dogs "need" to lok like that in order to resemble his breed. i don't approve this acction in places where it's forbiden undor any situations.
i live in country where cropping and docking are forrbiden in law and dispite that i like to see a nice cropping on a dog my dogs aren't cropped and docked ( well except pretty i getting her almost 3 years old and she's alredy done the 4 months old puppy isn't ) and so will be all my dogs and there litters, writhen even in a contract: " no cropping and docking alowed do the the law" and anyone who will think to overstep it will meet me in a courthouse.

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Irena - of course the puppies are under anesthesia when being cropped. The squealing happens AFTER the fact, and when they are trying to play. As you well know, they get these styrofoam cups with their ears taped to them on top of their heads, and being pups they will pull and tug on each other. It's a very vulnerable stage in their development anyways and cropping just adds negative impressions to it.
My dane was cropped when I got him - nothing I can do about it now, but had I met him sooner, I would have spared him from that.
It just amazes me, that people who claim to love their animals will have them go through **** like that - that's all. :wink:
Even if it looks "nice" - why make the animal suffer.............. ?

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:Dog_run:

Poor Re-Run had a horrible docking job. He should have almost no tail but he has about two-three inches. My poor baby went through all that pain and it wasn't done properly. Left natural his tail would be identical to an American Eskimo, I wish they left it that way. :(

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:d Great !! We pretty much all agree, that cropping/docking should be a thing of the past.
Let me be the devil's advocate and ask: If the "consumer" (that's us !:)) doesn't want this done to their future puppy, WHY ON EARTH do breeders still crop and dock? :evilbat: I even want to go further: As far as I know, there is a law in the making in the state of CA, to OUTLAW this mutilation of dogs. Guess what? Our "dear" (...and I use this term losely!!) AKC has called on breeders to DEFEND THEIR RIGHT of cropping and docking. Am I missing something? :oops: :-?

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I'm not against it per se, however I'd never have it done to any of my future dogs. Not only because of the pain, but because cropping and docking severly limits a dogs ability to communicate with other canines.

However, I hate using the excuse "leaving dogs as nature intended" considering nature did not shape dogs, we humans did for specific puposes.

Can you that are against C/D say it shouldn't be done in working dogs to prevent injury? Many spaniels and pointers have thin tails that are easily damaged, so they're docked to prevent a painful tail injury.

When docking was outlawed in a specific country (I can't remember which) they did a survey, and 43% of working hunting dogs damaged their tails in some way. To me, this proves that in certain curcumstances docking can be a necessity. However, I would definately support breeding for a thicker stronger tail type, perhaps like the labradors, which rarely gets damaged when working.

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[quote name='Lucky Chaos']I'm not against it per se, however I'd never have it done to any of my future dogs. Not only because of the pain, but because cropping and docking severly limits a dogs ability to communicate with other canines.

However, I hate using the excuse "leaving dogs as nature intended" considering nature did not shape dogs, we humans did for specific puposes.

Can you that are against C/D say it shouldn't be done in working dogs to prevent injury? Many spaniels and pointers have thin tails that are easily damaged, so they're docked to prevent a painful tail injury.

When docking was outlawed in a specific country (I can't remember which) they did a survey, and 43% of working hunting dogs damaged their tails in some way. To me, this proves that in certain curcumstances docking can be a necessity. However, I would definately support breeding for a thicker stronger tail type, perhaps like the labradors, which rarely gets damaged when working.[/quote]

just want to corect you in some things
1. usualy all the docking and cropping leave some tail and ear to the dog ( i don't talk about thos manics who think it's beatifull to take ALL the tail or ear from a dog ). more to that dogs don't have problems to communicate, dogs "speak" with there all body and scents ( i don't try to make to dock or crop your dog :lol: )
i hounr the laws of my country and will not C/D my dogs ( they usualy get both C and D )

but i am very agains this same law who doesn't prement me to remove the fitfh claws of my dog, did you ever saw a finger turn away only because she's there and with simple surgery...my old husky female once had it, you can't put bandage on it and it takes ages to heal, hell living......

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It depends for me. I love the way Springers look with cropped tails. And it makes sense! Carse is a complete lunatic, if he still had a tail, he would've had it cut, burned, and stepped on by now. Out in the field, it just gets in the way. They have the skinniest, puniest tails.. its safer for them to be docked.

On the other hand.. most dogs who have naturals ears, I like better then having them cropped up/down. My friends who have an Aussie, the breeder lets the future owners choose whether to crop the ears.. they chose not to. I think that Aussies who get their ears taped down just look funny.. but thats just me. :lol: :lol: Having prick ears or droop ears doesnt effect the dogs health or help it do its job better.. (unless its a gaurd dog, then you could get into whether or not they look "scarier" with prick ears).. while docking tails does help them.

I think that when it comes to cropping that it should be left alone.. unless it helps the dog in some way or another, but docking should be the owners choice.

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Guys - let me tell you something: If docking really helps to keep the living-room less bloody, then all Danes should be docked. :wink: Very often, Danes suffer from bloody tails because they tend to smack them into dooframes, tables and other corners of the house or in the car.
Therefore, lots of Danes have to have their tails removed because they don't heal once they are injured.
What really makes me kind of wonder, because if that's the case, it's called an A M P U T A T I O N , not a docking. Isn't that weird? :wink:

Tails are usually docked when the pups are just a few days old and the bone is still soft and "pliable" (mostly cartelidge) The bleeding is minimal as is the pain.
Cropping ears is an entirely different story though........... :evilbat:

One way or another: There's no reason why animals should be mutilated like that, just because they need to fit in our sense of asthetics, right?

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This is one of those debates where neither side is probably going to change their opinion. I don't believe in docking or cropping at all and won't change my opinion about it, and I'm sure the people on the other side of the fence won't change their opinion.

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Guest Anonymous
I dont see a problem with it if done correctly. Altghough, I much prefer a natural look. I do think though, if I owned hunting dogs their tails would definately be docked.

Irena makes a good point. So many are against cropping and docking but, how many of you have dogs who still have their dew claws? Probably not many. Honestly, that should be put in the same group as c/d.

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[quote name='Michele']good point Hmmm regarding the declaw......and what about cats? Is it humane to rip their claws out?...[/quote]

None of our cats are de-clawed, never have, never will, and in the future, I will never have my cats declawed. Even if its just an indoor cat... Eh. I think its evil.

I'm so hypocritical sometimes. :lol: :lol:

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I am oppossed to medical alteration for cosmetic reasons in pretty much every case in pretty much every species.

Of course if a dog ends up damaging its tail or dew claws, paticularly repeatedly then a surgical option can be reasonably considered.

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I just want my dog to be comfortable and know he could care less about aesthetics. If it didn't hurt then I am sure it wouldn't be illegal in certain countries. Not to mention it's a waste of money- I'm sure he'd prefer the money spent on treats!

A little off topic but along the same lines- some vets are doing surgical implants of fake balls- silicone testicles called "neuticles". Talk about how superficial we are! :(

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docking and cropping had purpose in hunting and guarding dogs that goes way back. the tails were docked to prevent injury, and I have seen hunting dog tails mangled and broken. cropping was done mostly in guarding dogs to prevent the ear from being a point of grabbing by an assailant. today, unless the dog is working, it is not necessary, but I will advocate a dock for a hunting dog that has had problems with his tail in the past. Laurel's tail is permanently kinked, and had been broken while she was hunting. the vet says its ok, just watch the bump, but since she;s not hunting now I see no reason to dock it.

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I see no problem with it when it is done correctly.

I don't think I would crop a dogs' ears.....but I also don't see myself owning a dog that would need that done.

But I'm not going to freak out on someone who has it done to their dog.

I'll save my energy to have someone get their pet altered instead!

:D

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The origional purpose of cropping and docking was for the safty of a working dog to prevent injury while working. While I don't like it, I understand it is to prevent repeated injury to the animal while it is working therefore do not disapprove of it. Any other reason is not good enough in my opinion.

Every dog I have ever had has had their dew claws, I would never have them removed unless the dog was having problems with them getting ripped or torn, then for the safty of the dog I would consider the possibility.

It really ticks me off when people have their cats declawed.

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Guest Anonymous
Docking doesn't bother me. I've assisted with them before and it's quick and easy and in the right hands I've never seen much blood if any.

Dew claws...Some dogs SHOULD have them removed. If the dew claws are not close to the leg they present a greater chance of being pulled or ripped. I had a foster dog (who the vet called a Whippet/JRT mix) who had very loose dew claws and she would catch them on any little thing including being tangled in a blanket. I did have her removed after the 3rd trip to the vet because of her ripping them.


Cropping bothers me. This is only because years ago when I was an ER Vet tech I saw many late night trips for owners who didn't know what to do with those racks on their heads and racks were pulled off, stiches ripped those sorts of things. I have also seen some really bad crop jobs that just make me want to vomit. A good crop job looks nice but I would PERSONALLY never do it. I dn't want to take the chances with the racks or the stiches.

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[quote name='CoalSky'][b]Cropping[/b] and [b]docking[/b], I don't muchly care. If done properlly I don't see the big deal. Personally I think docking looks horribe on almost all breeds, but it has a purpose for those dogs that break their tails (I have never known one personally though). [/quote]

Carson takes offense by that.. :P :lol: All the Springers that I've seen with full tails look quite rediculous. They have tiny, skinny, puny lil tails.. I can easily see how they could get it injured, even by just getting it stuck somewhere. They dont have those rough and tumble tails like labs do.

[quote name='courtnek']docking and cropping had purpose in hunting and guarding dogs that goes way back. the tails were docked to prevent injury, and I have seen hunting dog tails mangled and broken. cropping was done mostly in guarding dogs to prevent the ear from being a point of grabbing by an assailant. today, unless the dog is working, it is not necessary, but I will advocate a dock for a hunting dog that has had problems with his tail in the past. Laurel's tail is permanently kinked, and had been broken while she was hunting. the vet says its ok, just watch the bump, but since she;s not hunting now I see no reason to dock it.[/quote]

Our friends beagle, Emma has te same tail kink. Although, she's just a puppy, and her previous owner slammed the door on her tail. :o :o I've met a few other beagles who have tail kinks and such from hunting.. one that I know got her tail stepped on by a deer when she was chasing a bunny. Ouch! :o

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while i do admit i like the look of some cropped and/or docked breeds, i think it's completely unnecessary and only serves a cosmetic purpose in our day and age.

i'm going to limit my arguments to the breeds accepted by the AKC, since i expect relatively few people to be familiar with others, especially in their "natural" undocked/uncropped form as they are now raised and bred in most european countries.

why are the tails of some breeds docked, but not those of others, even if the tails are very similar? case in point, dachshunds are working dogs used for the same jobs as many of the smaller terrier breeds. smooth and wirehaired doxies don't exactly have thick, well-protected tails and neither do the longhaired ones - they even have quite a bit of feathering on theirs. but basically all the small(er) terrier breeds are docked at least to some extent while dachshunds aren't.

why do a number of breeds only get a relatively small part of their tail removed? in germany, vizslas, weimaraners, jack russell terriers (or parson, if you prefer) get to keep their full-length tails and in my opinion especially in the pointing breeds it makes the dog look a lot more appealing.

why do the grosse and kleine muensterlaender, irish red and white setter, gordon setter and irish setter get to keep their beautiful, feathered tails, but the spaniels don't? undocked, their tails are all very similar.

why should an undocked boxer have any more of a problem with its tail than for example a great dane, ibizan hound or bull terrier? i've seen undocked boxers and their tails really aren't as fragile as people seem to think.
[url]http://www.deutscher-boxer.de/galerie/leo/fotos/leo.jpg[/url]
[url]http://www.deutscher-boxer.de/galerie/akira/fotos/akira1.jpg[/url]
[url]http://www.deutscher-boxer.de/galerie/hunter/fotos/hunter.jpg[/url]

why does a schnauzer, regardless whether giant, standard or miniature, need cropped ears? their natural easrs are very much in balance with the rest of their body and not oversized, similar to other terriers (which is the family of breeds they belong to)? black russian terriers, airedale terriers, kerry blue terriers, welsh terriers, smooth/wire fox terriers, irish terriers, lakeland terriers and so on - none are cropped.

why would you dock and/or crop [b]any[/b] toy breed, or any breed that is generally kept purely as a pet?

affenpinscher - docked and in most cases cropped.
brussels griffon - docked and in most cases cropped.
cavalier king charles spaniel - docking optional.
english toy spaniel - docked.
manchester terrier - cropping optional.
miniature pinscher - cropping optional, tail docked.
poodles (all varieties) - docked.
silky terrier - docked.
toy fox terrier - docked.
yorkshire terrier - docked.
schipperke - docked if not born tailless.
boston terrier - ears erect, either naturally or cropped.

all that aside, the living conditions of dogs as well as veterinary care has improved so much in the past 150 years, and owners are able and willing to provide appropriate care, that neither ears nor tail have to be modified to an artificial "maintenance mode" anymore. i'd say there's a huge difference between someone keeping a kennel of 20, 50 or 100 dogs for hunting or other working purposes (like it was common 50 or 100 years ago) with no easily accessible vet in case treatment is necessary, and today's situation where most dogs live in small numbers indoors with their owners and not in a more or less commercial setting. and even commercial breeding operations with many dogs in a kennel have easier access to a vet and/or appropriate treatment options.

true "working conditions" where cropping and/or docking is truly beneficial to and individual dog are so rare these days that it would indeed be easily possible to grant exemptions, but let's face it, the vast majority of dogs today are either pet or show dogs that barely ever are going to risk their ears or tail in any way whatsoever - so for them it's really unnecessary to put them through the ordeal.

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