"It" has a name!

[Horsefeathers!]

The lab report is in on what has been making my dogs so sick. It's...

*big drumroll*

E. Coli. :-?

According to the lab report, we have a really nasty strain of e coli making its rounds with our dogs. We have NO clue where it came from, but my vet blames it on either Rocco's appearance (he was very well cared for prior to us getting him, but I suppose he could have picked it anywhere between where he lived in VA to where we live in GA), OR the raw chicken & turkey necks we've given them.

I'm confused... I didn't think dogs were very susceptible to things like e coli infections. It would be a little easier to understand if, say, one or two of my more compromised dogs (like Devin who constantly battles to be healthy) got it, but ALL of them? There are only about two or three of my gang that haven't gotten sick yet, but we're waiting. I've had dogs getting sick that have cast iron stomachs and virtually NEVER get sick, so I'm kind of confuzzled. I had one dog several years ago that got salmonella, but she has some health problems (allergies) and over the years, I've been worn down by some raw enthusiasts who tell me that it wouldn't have made a healthy dog sick, so just as soon as I decide to give them raw chicken/turkey necks, they all get sick. Maybe I'm just not understanding. If it didn't come from there, then WHERE? My yard is fenced in and there are no strays coming through. :-? ?

The good news (I think? if I'm understanding right) is that hopefully the dogs will get over this and have a resistance to it. From what I understand, once the dogs are over it, it should eventually just go away without any other drastic measures. Anyone more experienced in these matters, please feel free to set me straight if I'm wrong.

So that's what "it" is.

If anyone has any input, please feel free to share it. TDG? Anybody? If it were you, what would you think? It really is frustrating to try so hard to do everything right and it all goes to h*ll. I know people who just toss down a bucket of Ol' Roy to their dogs every day and whatever scraps they toss from their plates which include cooked chicken bones (big no no, right?) and they've never had any problems. Maybe I'm trying too hard. :-?

[Guest Anonymous]

ewww that e coli is nasty! i had e coli and a sever kidney infection.. i ended up in the hosptial almost dying from it.. i was there for a week!!! at least you know what it's from. i'd say it's from the raw meat

at least you know what it is now!

[courtnek]

I would say the raw meat as well. Now before all the BARF people get upset, not all raw meat has e-coli in it. A lot of it depends on how the meat was handled, refrigerated, how long it sat out before being refrigerated or frozen, etc. The plant where the animals were slaughtered could have strains of it. You always hear about e-coli popping up in fast food places.
and store recalls because it showed up. It's a nasty bugger, that's for sure. Frozen food is usually not suspect, but refrigerated food can be. I think dogs are resistant or more resistant to botulism and salmonella then we are, but e-coli is nasty. I think if Rocco was carrying it, you would have seen him being ill as well. I dont think theres such a thing as a Typhoid Mary for e-coli...I could be wrong, but have never heard of that possibility.

[courtnek]

What is E. coli?
Although E. coli has been often in the news as a foodborne pathogen, the vast majority of E. coli strains are harmless, including those commonly used by scientists in genetics laboratories. E. coli is found in the family of bacteria named Enterobacteriaceae, which is informally referred to as the enteric bacteria. Other enteric bacteria are the Salmonella bacteria (also a very large family, with many different members), Klebsiella pneumoniae, and Shigella, which many researchers consider to be part of the E. coli family.

E. coli bacteria were discovered in the human colon in 1885 by German bacteriologist Theodor Escherich. Dr. Escherich also showed that certain strains of the bacteria were responsible for infant diarrhea and gastroenteritis - an important public health discovery. Although the bacteria were initially called Bacterium coli, the name was later changed to Escherichia coli to honor its discoverer.

Soon after its discovery, E. coli became a very popular lab organism because scientists could grow it quickly on both simple and complex mediums. E. coli can grow in air, using oxygen as a terminal electron acceptor (aerobically) or without air, by what is called fermentative metabolism (aerobically). The ability to grow both aerobically and anaerobically classifies the E. coli bacteria as a facultative anaerobe.

E. coli O157:H7 bacteria is believed to mostly live in the intestines of cattle,1 but has also been found in the intestines of chickens, deer, sheep, and pigs. E. coli O157:H7 does not make the animals that carry it ill; the animals are merely the reservoir for the bacteria.

Meat typically becomes contaminated with E. coli O157:H7 during the slaughtering process, when the contents of the animal's intestine and feces are allowed to come into contact with the carcass. Unless the carcass is sanitized somehow, the E. coli bacteria are eventually mixed into the meat, as it is ground into hamburger. Because the bacteria is mixed into the meat during the grinding process, and not just on the surface, thorough cooking (greater than 160 degrees) is required to prevent E. coli O157:H7 poisoning when the ground beef is eaten by the consumer.

Contaminated meat looks and smells normal. Although the number of organisms required to cause an infection are not known, it is suspected to be very small.

[sarahmyjoy]

we had a talk about the cats at the shelter and URIs and the bacteria that they cultured from a sample of the URI cats and maybe the dogs too(a bit of it going round) was E coli. and they told how the clavamox (sp) and other antibotics (sp) were real effective. But you have already said that :wink: HF .... this just made me think of the meeting we had bout all that

[courtnek]

I would agree with that. with sewage in the yard, you may never know exactly.

[JackieMaya]

HF, I'm glad you finally know what the problem is! I'm sure they'll all pull through this just fine.

[Cairn6]

Well I think you can rule out that Rocco brought it there because it's not contagious like that. You have to come in contact with it yourself so it has to be the raw meat or possible sewage from the storm.

[kendalyn]

It took that long to figure out it was e. coli?!

I was thinking it was going to be something exotic! Do you know if he ever did a gram stain and looked at it under the microscope? I would think after seeing those gram-negative rods and with your dog's symptoms that e. coli would be something he could diagnose. :-?

I've succesfully isolated e. coli from Buck's poop many times. Most dogs have it in their GI Tract.

It's cool you know what it is now and that the antibiotics seem to be working :-)

[DogPaddle]

Opponents of BARF do claim that E-Coli is a risk and some otherwise healthy dogs have gotten sick from eating foods (BARF, Homecooked, Canned or Kibble) infected with it. It could be from the raw stuff, there are different strains of e-coli and some are more virulant than others. However, e-coli comes from poop or at least is carried in it. With the hurricane messing with the water table and sewage it could just as easily be the culprit IMO.

Just to be safe I'd want to cook all meats at least until all your doggers have been well for a good 2 weeks.

[Horsefeathers!]

We aren't thinking it's contagious in the sense that one dog can catch it directly from another :-? . I think it's more along the line of one dog shedding it and another coming into contact with it. :-?

Courtnek, thanks for the article.

Kendalyn... I don't know. I'll ask. I don't know if they had to find out what kind of e coli it was or what the deal was. I have the lab report, but it looks like Greek to me. It basically says it's e coli and gives a list of drugs that it's susceptible to or resistant to. After the first few dogs, we knew it was something "going around," but by the time he decided to do a culture, we had to wait for the next dog to get "it" so we could send "it" off. I do know he said something to the effect of hoping that's all it is and that maybe there's not something else going on that wasn't picked up. I'm wondering, too, if e coli is supposed to be normal in their systems, would the presence of it have raised a red flag if the vet saw it, anyway?

I've heard this stuff before about "all dogs have e coli in their systems," so why are MINE sick from it? I try to be open minded about stuff and realize that vets don't know everything, but then again, it's hard to decide what to believe when some people say e coli is normal and won't make a dog sick (not saying you... just in general) and nearly all of mine got sick from it.

We're wondering, too, it it could have come from standing water when the hurricanes came through. I guess we'll never know, but it suuuuuuuuuure does make you paranoid wondering. It took years for me to get the courage to give JUST the chicken & turkey necks after another dog got salmonella a few years ago and now I'm scared of it all over again whether it's the culprit or not. :oops:

[Horsefeathers!]

[quote name='scotty_lvr']Did the vet say if you could just be proactive about giving antibiotics to the whole lot to prevent any further outbreak or recurrance[/quote]

We asked about this and he said at this point it's probably better to just let the remaining dogs get it if they're going to and THEN start antibiotics. He said by allowing them to get it, perhaps they'll build that resistance to it.

So we're still waiting on 8, 9 & 10. :oops:

[Guest Anonymous]

[quote name='courtnek']I would agree with that. with sewage in the yard, you may never know exactly.[/quote]

i was about to say that.. when i got my ecoli poisioning it was from tubing down the salt river.. it got in "hoo haa" has HF says .. the water is really yucky there with human waste but that normally only happend twordst he end of the summer after everyone had beent here and we went at the beg.. i was the only one to get sick. and i went about 5 times beforei go it. :(

[courtnek]

[quote]I've heard this stuff before about "all dogs have e coli in their systems," so why are MINE sick from it?[/quote]

there are many different strains of e-coli. it is not unusal to find it in dogs, or other animals, GI tracts. However, only some (and according to the article, looks like only a few) actually cause illness. I would guess the one(s) that make you sick are like super virulent forms of the same general bacteria. bacteria can evolve from its original state into stronger, harder to kill forms. that's where the huge red flag about antibiotics has been raised. They have been finding that todays AB's are not working as well at killing strains of bacteria, because the bacteria itself has become immume to them. Through evolving into another strain. Some say its because dr's were giving ab's for things that werent bacterial, and others say its because the meat and poultry industry routinely give ab's to their livestock to prevent illness and boost health and growth. either way, its now believed that the "bugs" are getting ahead of us in the bacterial war...

I'm your your doc told you this, but make sure you finish all the ab's, even if they are getting better. you have to kill the entire strain, or it can come back as a stronger, more virulent version.

glad they're getting better!!

:)

[imported_Kat]

I don't think this has come from raw feeding. It sounds like it has came from bird droppings. Birds will actively move more with the recent hurricane action and therefore they will poop more. Dog walks in poop, licks paws when he comes in and bingo you have yourself a lovely Coloform (E-coli) infection, typified by colitis and vomitting.