Guest Anonymous Posted February 4, 2004 Share Posted February 4, 2004 I just got a 7 week old male rott pup, had him for about a week now... After about the 3rd day, if someone were to hold him close, and put their face near his, he starts to growl, and if you don't move away he will snap at you... he even does this to me... Then my daughter (2 1/2yrs old) was just sitting with him getting in his face and he started to growl at her... What do you guys recommend? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edgar Posted February 5, 2004 Share Posted February 5, 2004 You need to get him used to being touched. Open his mouth with your hands, desensitize a bit to human hands. Make sure he is punished when he bites i.e. say something like "No Biting" in a commanding voice, gently put your hand on his muzzle for 5 seconds and then turn your back on him, ignoring him for 5 minutes or so. Do this whenever he growls or bites. Make sure you don't reward his growling or biting in any way. i.e. no petting, no backing off, no playing after he growls or bites. Maybe get your daughter to take part in his training. Make him sit/stay etc for treats and let her do it. Make him wait for his food until you save move. Stuff like that, they need to know from a young age that family is boss and aggressive behaviour won't be tolerated. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JudyHoffman Posted February 5, 2004 Share Posted February 5, 2004 You've had this dog since he's 6 weeks old? Yikes. Where did you get this dog from? A breeder? If so, call the breeder or return him to the breeder. Everything Edgar says is fine for an older puppy (not 7 weeks old). In my opinion as a trainer and a breeder, no 7 week old puppy should be behaving in this manner UNLESS it is a puppy mill dog who was not with it's mother, poor breeding, poor health. You really can't "TRAIN" a 7 week old puppy, but you can use happy voices, let it sleep, keep out of it's face and feed it a good diet and always have treats while interacting with it. If I were you, I'd be concerned about this behavior if it continues and you got this puppy way too early in it's social development with litter mates and mother. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Anonymous Posted February 5, 2004 Share Posted February 5, 2004 nah, I got him at 7 weeks... he's almost 8 weeks now (had him for about a week)... Also, he doesn't get excited by attention... my girlfriend will kneel down and call him excitedly patting the floor, and a lot of the time he pays no attention... or will just look at her... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JudyHoffman Posted February 5, 2004 Share Posted February 5, 2004 I still would be concerned. 7 weeks is cutting it close and the fact that he doesn't care to play or interact at all could indicate a serious behavior problem. Not bad now because he is small and young, but when he is over 100 lbs it can be serious. I would have him temperment tested by a trainer who knows how to do the test. You still got him too young ....... 10 weeks is good for a Rottie! Where did you get him from? and tell your daughter to stay away from his face, which should be a standard rule with any dog anywhere. Putting your face in a dogs face is considered a challenge by the dog ....... DON'T DO IT! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Anonymous Posted February 5, 2004 Share Posted February 5, 2004 We got him from an older couple in a city nearby... They had an ad in a local classified paper... I know that's a bad place to look for a pup... but that's how my whole family and most of the people I know go about it... That's how we found our St. Bernard and she's great... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lucky Chaos Posted February 5, 2004 Share Posted February 5, 2004 I'm sorry to be a bit blunt here but weren't you just asking for book suggestions to train your St. Bernard? If your current dog is already a year old and not trained how are you planning on training two dogs at once? It sounds like this pup needs a LOT of work and training... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Anonymous Posted February 5, 2004 Share Posted February 5, 2004 Nah, I was looking for a book to train the rottie I was planning to get, I wanted to use an effective method of training (basic commands, housebreaking, etc) that actually works really well... My saint bernard isn't completely untrained, she doesn't always listen, she's completely housebroken, we leave her loose 24/7, she knows sit/down/stay... pulls a bit on the leash... but we have no complaints about our St. Bernard at all, she's really gentle especially with the kids... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Malamum Posted February 5, 2004 Share Posted February 5, 2004 I would suggest that you follow the following Alpha Training rules. The idea behind these is to teach the dog that you are alpha and leader of the pack. ALPHA TRAINING You can start with one or two and work your way up as they become routine. The main thing is consistency! If you make a rule, you have to enforce it every time. Alpha training works so beautifully with young pups. They never get the control and thus don't fight it. 1. Alpha always eats first. Either change the dog's feeding time or grab a little bite of something before feeding your dog.(We make added advantages for the whole family by letting the dog have the last bite of whatever we are eating. He has to wait patiently. This way even my kids get Alpha! We also feed our cat first.) 2. Alphas always go through doorways first. This includes all doorways INSIDE the house. Either call the dog back to you or take her back and make her wait. 3. NO FREE LUNCH This means the dog has to do something for everything it gets. Most people have the dog sit, but you can also use down or come. This should include meals, treats, walks, pets, and anytime the dog wants out. 4. Alphas always have the highest position. This means don't let the dog on the furniture, especially the bed. While training, don't lay on the floor and DON"T ever let the dog stand over or on you. Don't let the dog put it's paws on your lap and stand with it's head higher. 5. Alphas always have clear passage. This means you teach the dog to move out of your way instead of walking around. Depending on temperament, you can walk up about a foot from the dog and say move and then keep walking. The dog should get out of the way. If this doesn't work at first, try luring with a treat or toy until she learns the command. 6. Alphas make the rules. This is probably the hardest! You have to show the dog that you decide when to play or pet her. Our rule was for every 3 times Kodiak asked to play or be petted, the 4th time we said no. You need to also stop a game before she is ready every few times. Don't wait for the dog to walk off and leave you 7 No rough play-At least until the dog is 12 to 18 mos and KNOWS it's place in the pack, you should avoid tug of war and wrestling. In dog terms (especially for young dogs), this is a way to test the other members of the pack to see who is vulnerable. In trying to let the dog have fun, we end up sending the wrong message with these games. 8 Alphas decide where and when to go. Use the tether(umbilical) system for bonding and Alpha training. When you are home, put a 6 ft leash on the dog and hook it to you. I used a leather belt and put the loop of the leash through it and buckled it around my waist even if I didn't have belt loops. To begin with, tell the dog when you are going to move. This teaches the dog to pay attention to you, that you are in control, and to wait patiently by your side. It helps a lot to talk to them and BE HAPPY! Make her feel she is helping by coming along. This worked great with Kodiak and now I can tie him to me anytime my hands are full and he follows right along. 9 Insist the dog obey first time, every time! This is probably one of the most important for independent breeds. Do not repeat yourself! Do not assume the dog did not hear you(they have excellent hearing for the things they are interested in!). Give a command, wait a few seconds, then put the dog in position or make him do what you said. If a pup is never allowed to ignore you, it will make training SO much easier and faster. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DogPaddle Posted February 5, 2004 Share Posted February 5, 2004 We got Zaphod from the pound at "8 weeks", however, we are pretty sure now that he was actually 7 weeks and he had already been there for at least a week - holding time. So Zaphod had not been with his mother or littermates since around 6 to 6 1/2 weeks. He has never just gotten on well with other dogs and did mouth an awful lot and still licks excessively. You may need to be extra dilligent with your pup for similar reasons. Everyones suggestions have been great but I'm with Judy in her concern regarding age. Start carefully. Best of Luck. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KP Posted February 5, 2004 Share Posted February 5, 2004 A dog should under no circumstances growl at its house hold members. You have got to firm up with this dog or he will take over. Get a hold of it now or you will have problems later. Do not [b]ever[/b] allow growling. Since this guy is still young you can quickly get a hold of the situation. The best way to get your point acrossed when this happens is to scruff this pup as its mother would. Give him a verbal correction. A firm growling "No". Never ignore it or back down because he sees that as he has defeated you, therefore he is the leader of your pack. You should be the leader. You have to clearly define that. When scruffing a pup he should become submissive. If he does not (sometimes maybe even gets worse) give him a small shake of the scruff. Nothing painful. Just let him know you mean business. You don't want to have to deal with this later when he is bigger. Its best to get a hold of it now. I agree with the Alpha rules as well.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
imported_Cassie Posted February 6, 2004 Share Posted February 6, 2004 I would have that pup looked over by a Vet....it may have "health problems" which are making it uncomfortable for the pup to be handled. I also would consider returning the pup...you have a 2 1/2 year old daughter to think about...if you are having problems now...its going to get worse later. In one post when you were looking for training books I had mentioned group obedience classes which you mentioned you were unable to attend with your St. Bernard...and now you have gotten your self a Rottie which requires early socialization, and would be the type of dog which would require obedience training...? I own a Rottweiler, and more so than any other breed I have ever owned...this breed requires alot more training and socialization. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Anonymous Posted February 12, 2004 Share Posted February 12, 2004 Just wanted to let you all know he's doing much better now, finally acting like a puppy, wagging his tail all the time, wanting to play... he hasn't had an accident in almost a week now... he does growl at strangers when they pick him up and cuddle him... but he follows my girlfriend and I wherever we go... he chews a little, and gnaws when he plays... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kendalyn Posted February 12, 2004 Share Posted February 12, 2004 [quote]he does growl at strangers when they pick him up and cuddle him[/quote] This is still a huge problem. Do you want an adult dog that automatically growls at strangers? Maybe have people he doesn't know feed him a treat when he goes to them. And I would for sure take this dog to a puppy class. He needs socialization bad. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Anonymous Posted February 24, 2004 Share Posted February 24, 2004 I do not agree with the Alpha rules. As the late famous John Fisher said back in 1995 - "They all mean diddly squat to the dog" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Anonymous Posted March 5, 2004 Share Posted March 5, 2004 A loaded subject and way beyond the scope of a discussion forum. But, basically, it is no good us trying to act like wolves, we just can't do it. Dogs are not stupid and do not view us as the same species. [Read 'Coppinger's' book 'Dogs'] The reason you can control all your dogs is not because you eat beofre them or don't allow them to barge through doorways; it is more the fact that you are consistent in your approach, let them know what is acceptable and unacceptable behaviour; and let them know that 'bad behaviour' is non-rewarding. Dogs do what works for them, they are not trying to take over the human race. If they exhibit a behaviour and are rewarded for it, either intentionally, unintentionally, or intrinsically then that behaviour will be repeated. You can get dogs that will have strong characters and try to manipulate, but if that manipulative behaviour does not work, it will, eventually extinguish. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
imported_Cassie Posted March 5, 2004 Share Posted March 5, 2004 Graceface...the book you mentioned.... Dogs, A startling New understanding of Canine Origin, Behavior & Evolution written by biologists Raymond Coppinger and Lorna Coppinger... I read that book...isnt it great...it really opened my eyes to alot of issues surrounding our dogs. :wink: I completely agree with you about "alpha" rules not meaning diddly squat to a dog...I own 6 dogs, including 2 intact males and 1 intact female...I am consistant with my training and I use the nothing is free in life policy...basically I control the resources...I treat my dogs like the scavengers they are :wink: the thing people forget is that any animal which has to live in a group needs to follow rules...its pretty easy to establish rules by being consistant...and by controlling the resources you can use the reward system. This could also work on a human...for instance...."if you clean your room, I will let you go to that concert you wanted to go to" or "If you fix my car, I will let you go out and drink with your buddies tonight" :wink: :lol: basically the same rules :wink: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Malamum Posted March 5, 2004 Share Posted March 5, 2004 Coming from someone who has a very dominant dog who will "try it on" any chance he gets I say that they do work and that they are important. But all they are really doing is exactly what you said - teaching the dog what is acceptable behavior and what isn't. By following these rules - I am by no means pretending to be or trying to act like a wolf :-? I am just showing my dog (by non physical means) that I am the boss, leader, alpha or whatever term you want to use. Cassie - you say you don't believe in the alpha rules but then you say you live by the most fundamental one - the nothing in life is free approach. By using this method you are in fact enforcing your role as alpha because the alpha is the one who is in charge of the resources, sets the rules and is always in control. One of my pet hates is people who let their dog do whatever the hell it likes then get all upset when it corrects them for something. They then start crying that they have an aggressive dog and say Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
imported_Cassie Posted March 5, 2004 Share Posted March 5, 2004 [quote]Cassie - you say you don't believe in the alpha rules but then you say you live by the most fundamental one - the nothing in life is free approach. By using this method you are in fact enforcing your role as alpha because the alpha is the one who is in charge of the resources, sets the rules and is always in control[/quote] Malamum, with the nothing is free in life policy I could use this to train just about any animal...they use this method when training dolphins, killer whales etc. in marine shows...so, are these people being the Alpha wolf to a killer whale???? :roll: basically I am rewarding good behavior with my dogs...I don't want them to be jumping all over me when I am about to feed them...so I make them sit down first..its a simple training technique...which by the way probably would not work on a wolf...and how many alpha wolves would make all the other pack members sit before eating :lol: Its just not my style to refer to my dogs behavior issues as any thing other than "Canine" issues...I do not compare my dogs to a pack of wolves...basically because I have never lived with wolves and I don't know many people who have...so, when you don't have alot of information on an animal why even bother to compare it to your own dog (although I have done reading on wolves and read studies concerning wolves, I still think I know my own dogs better than wolves), yes, they have done alot of studies on wild wolves and wolves in captive; but, even these people will tell you that wolves and dogs do not have alot of the same behaviors. I own dogs and I am proud of it. In the book Dogs by the Coppinger's they are biologists who have been studing wolves, dogs, coyotes, jackels etc. for many years...if you want to learn more; then pick up the book. here is a notation they have in their book... "To be descended from a wolf is not to be a wolf". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Malamum Posted March 5, 2004 Share Posted March 5, 2004 I never said that I was trying to emulate the way wolves live. To me the word alpha basically means to be the highest ranked and the term "alpha rules" is simply a way of describing a set of rules which will help you have a well-mannered dog that defers to you. No dogs are not wolves - never said they were. However some breeds have more of a pack mentality than others, malamutes being one of these breeds. I can tell you that anyone who owns a malamute and totally disregards the alpha rules is seriously asking for trouble. There is no way in the world you want a dog that strong thinking they out rank you. I understand that this doesn't apply to the same extent to all breeds, however I do believe that any dog owner can't go wrong by following the basic principles. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
imported_Cassie Posted March 6, 2004 Share Posted March 6, 2004 [[quote]quote]No dogs are not wolves - never said they were. However some breeds have more of a pack mentality than others, malamutes being one of these breeds. I can tell you that anyone who owns a malamute and totally disregards the alpha rules is seriously asking for trouble. There is no way in the world you want a dog that strong thinking they out rank you.ote] [/quote] Here is a little notation from the book "dogs" written by biologist who have been studing wolves and dogs for years...and the Coppinger's race dog sled teams and raise herding dogs. [quote]I think it is wrong to treat our best friend like a wolf. I have trained hundreds of sled dogs and hundreds more sheepdogs. I don't think a dog knows what people are talking about when they exhibit this "alpha wolf" behavior. Dogs do not understand such behaviors because the village dogs didn't have a pack structure; they were semisolitary animals. Such behavior by humans confuses them. Running together as a team is a social event, a system of togetherness. How well that social system works depends somewhat on the collection of individual talents, but even more on how each individuals running shape and size mesh with that of other members. The description of a social system is very different from the way dog teams are often described. The pervasive cliche is that they are like a pack of wolves, with a leader which dominates the pack. The analogy then designates the driver as the supreme pack leader, the so-called alpha dog, exercising his will over the pack and forcing them to run with threats of physical violence. The driver, it is believed, forces these subordinate animals to be submissive, wielding a whip, which he cracks in the air to make the dogs speed up. The mythology becomes complete with references to northern people staking out their female dogs so local wolves can breed to them. The rational is that breeding to woves gives the sled dogs stamina. [b]Nothing could be futher from the truth.[/b] Maybe some people did breed their dogs to wolves and then had to beat them with whips just to keep them from killing one another when they harnessed them. It is not intuitively obvious that breeding to hundred pound wolves would introduce a host of counter productive elements into the team. But stamina would be reduced. Dominance hierarchy behavior would occur, and disrupt a coordinated effort. Synchrony of running would vanish, because wolves are independently minded animals that think more about their personal space than dogs do. Wolves typically react to commands by assuming submissive postures, or quit on a whim and then sulk. I can't think of a single trait possessed by wolves that I'd want on on a dog team. The idea that I would go out and pay five thousand dollars for a lead dog, bring it home, and let it fight the rest of the dogs to see if they accept it as the alpha male and leader has to be hilarious. The last thing any dog dirver wants is a dog fight. Not only can valuable animals be hurt, but animosities between individuals would constantly stress the team effort. I don't want any dog to feel bad about its rank on the team, or continually test its position. I don't want the dogs submissive to me. On a twelve- or sixteen dog team, the leaders are usually paired. The leaders can be paired as males or females. What does that do to the theory of the alpha dog? Two female alpha dogs? A dog team with good depth has many leaders. It has alternates that the driver can substitute up front to replace animals too tired to keep a winning pace. Dogs are not wolves. Dogs are not running as a pack. A pack is about chasing some thing. Sled dogs are running because other dogs are running. They are motiveated by something the animal behaviorists call social facilitation. [/quote] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Anonymous Posted March 6, 2004 Share Posted March 6, 2004 Well, at least I've got you lot discussing it! In a wild wolf or dog pack, if resouces were scarce, it would be the puppies that would be allowed to eat first; in order to maintain survival of the species. Apart from that in a multi dog household, very often the most dominant dog will wait till the other dogs have finished eating - after all they would not dare touch his food, so what is the rush. They then often seem to sort pf 'gloat' afterwards as if saying 'I've still got my food, you guys have not!' Dogs go through doors first because they are excited, not because they are being dominant, they can be trained not to, but that has no bearing on why they do it. Since when did wolves have doors? Ignoring a dog when you return home - why? Ignoring a dog is a form of punishment - why punish your dog for being pleased to see you? Dogs will be badly behaved if you let them, just like children or any other sentient being. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Anonymous Posted December 3, 2004 Share Posted December 3, 2004 in reply to graceface what you just said completely displays your ignorance on the subject of alpha dogs. of course, everyone is entitled to their own opinions Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Anonymous Posted December 3, 2004 Share Posted December 3, 2004 and also no, puppies would not eat first if it was necessary for their survival. If a pack member is to die, the puppies would be the first to go. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seijun Posted December 3, 2004 Share Posted December 3, 2004 Cassie, sorry, I had to laugh a little bit when I saw your quote from that book. The author has the same warped and crooked view of the term "alpha" as do so many others in the world. Being alpha does NOT involve "violence," forced submission, physical dominance, or any of those other things. Being alpha simply means the dogs looks up to you for its resources. If your dog looks up to you, then it sees you as alpha-simple as that. Being alpha doesn't mean you have to beat a dog into submission!! Also, wolves and dogs DO speak the same [b]basic[/b] language, there is no denying that. Both communicate they same way, using various tail, eye, and ear signals. Although it is true that a domestic dog isn't likely to fully understand the intense behavior of the wolf, if dogs didn't live according to [i]some[/i] canine language system and based on [i]some[/i] form of hierarchy, they could not function as a group. A young puppy of course isn Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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