JudyHoffman

I may misunderstand, so please be patient. Are you saying that you would breed a litter and keep all the puppies (not sell them) and then breed those puppies back to each other to improve your bloodlines? Wouldn't this be considered inbreeding or linebreeding and if so, wouldn't that cause severe genetic problems with any offspring eventually? I think over time you would be causing more harm to your bloodlines than good and not it's not very ethical IMVHO. I heard of a Belgian Sheepdog breeder who did this very same thing with 4 littermates. Her goal was to have a 10 generation pedigree just off of the original 4 dogs ...... I believe the results were so disastrous health wise, she never bred or had another dog again. [quote]9 times out of 10 a free dog/puppy is a mistreated dog/puppy.[/quote] If this is true then the breeder is somewhat responsible for what happens to the pup. It is up to the breeder to conduct a thorough screening and reference checking before placing a pup, whether free or not.

Possibly because of something lacking in his diet or the food he is eating contains so much junk that his body isn't digesting it properly. I would switch to a better quality food.

I second what Vertigo World asked, but in answer to your question, around day 51 after mating. There is nothing you can do in the meantime except wait.

Thank you Naomi, yes I know Etsuko, at least via the internet and I know the breeder of Cuan. He's very nice.

Kira, the mother and Matriarch of the Group. [img]http://images.snapfish.com/33%3B%3C28%3A723232%7Ffp63%3Dot%3E2336%3D436%3D787%3DXROQDF%3E232365%3A4%3B%3A273ot1lsi[/img] The Happy Mom & Babies [img]http://images.snapfish.com/33%3B%3C28%3A723232%7Ffp64%3Dot%3E2336%3D436%3D787%3DXROQDF%3E232365%3A4%3B9535ot1lsi[/img]

No, if I understand the question (I don't show, but attend and help show clubs). The Belgians are all classified as a herding breed. So in the Group Pull in AKC, you will have The Belgian Groenendael, The Belgian Tervuren and The Belgian Malinois. They compete against each other along with all the other classified herding breeds. To get to Group, they need to win their Breed. So you will have a group of Malinois competing for Best of Breed, a group of Groenendaels competing and Tervs doing the same. Then the winner of those breeds would go to the group. Clear as mud now? :P The Laekenois is not recognized by the AKC so they do not compete in AKC events. In Canada, they compete as one breed ........ Groenendals, Tervs, Mals and Laekens all competing for Best of Breed then that winner going to the group. The Laekens are recognized by the Canadian Kennel Club.

Not in the US that I am aware of, but then again the individual township you live in may have their own set of laws regarding dog breeding.

Malamum, I'm sorry! I've had these dogs for so long, their silly "nicknames" stick after awhile The sheepdog = Belgian Groenendael (Black Dog) Tervlettes = Belgian Tervuren Puppies :-? :D :o

Here is a picture of Kira's great great great great Grandsire. [img]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v298/gsdbcstber/REMultiCHGrimmvandeHogeLaerB.jpg[/img] He is quite a handsome fellow. He is around 11 years old in this picture I believe.

In every country in the world, except for the US (or AKC) the breed variations are separated into 3 categories. The Belgian Groenendael (the long coated Black Variety or Sheepdog) The Belgian Tervuren (the long coated Red/Black, Fawn Black, Mahogany/Black) The Belgian Malinois (the short coated variety coming in either red, fawn or mahogany) The AKC does not recognize the Belgian Laekenois (the wire coated variety with the same markings). Worldwide, all varieties are known as the Belgian Shepherd Dog except here in the US. Kira is a Belgian Sheepdog bred in Finland, but in her 7th generation has a Belgian Tervuren in her pedigree. This dog is Grimm van de Hoge Laer. Jack is a UKC registered Belgian Shepherd dog, as his Father was a Belgian Tervuren and his mother is a Belgian Sheepdog. Therefore, he could not be registered with the AKC but only the UKC. Jack also has Grimm van de Hoge Laer in his pedigree, 5 generations back. Until 1958, all Belgian, irregardless of variety (coat & color) were all considered one breed until a group of very zealous Black Dog owners lobbied the AKC and had the variations included in the standard. They changed the standard for each dog (minimally to justify the separating of the coat variations). I hope to be able to post pictures tomorrow. All the pups are thriving and I think I have 2 red Terlettes and 3 Fawn Terlettes. I'll post a picture of Grimm, a great ancestor of these puppies. OK, so now is this as clear as mud :oops: :D :roll:

Yesterday, Kira delivered 7 healthy Belgian Shepherd puppies. 2 Belgian Groenendael and 5 Belgian Tervuren. 6 girls in all and 1 boy. The boy is a sheepdog and the girls are 1 sheepdog and 5 Tervlettes. All are healthy and thriving as of today.

I guess my big question here is why would you pay $$$ for a pure bred mix? You paid money for a mix breed? As a breeder of pure bred Belgian Sheepdogs, I charge for my puppies and very reasonable too. The money is receive pays for high quality food, xrays for the adult dogs, dog toys etc. Again, I have to ask ....... you paid money for a mix breed? What sort of guarantees did you get from this person about your pup?

I'll take a smart dog that is stubborn. It's always challenging to figure out what makes them tick, what makes them train. I have a female Belgian Sheepdog puppy that is like that. She is very stubborn and very smart. To add insult to injury, she is very confident which adds a 3rd problem to her training process. She actually won't work for you unless you are doing something she likes to do :P We are starting agility on Sunday to give her an outlet for all that intelligence.

Exactly how did he move her? Did he hurt her? Break the skin? Use his mouth? I think to get an honest opinion from folks you'll need to provide more details. My assumption only is that if you removed the dog to your mothers it's more serious than you are saying in this post.

....... and I had just the opposite happen. The GL worked wonders with my Belgian Sheepdog puppy (15 months) and the prong just made him hate going for walks and training. I guess it all depends on the dog and the trainer and the technique used.

Whoa. whoa, whoa ....... I never called you a liar, not ever not once. What are your dogs hips scores? On the European scale since you are in the UK? What are the stud dogs scores? Your original post sounded very la-de-da about the whole thing and breeding should be taken very seriously. What will you get out of this breeding if you decide to do it?

OK ..... not being negative here, but how do you know hips/eyes are OK? Have they been tested and rated by experts. Not your vet, people that specialize in this? Just because your vet says he "is a good specimen" does not mean he is. There is DNA testing and so on and so forth. Are there test results from any of the other litters this bitch has produced. I'm sorry, I don't think or believe you are doing your research. Before a bitch or stud is even bred, the tests cost about 1500 USD just to find out if the dog is healthy or not. And I'm not talking about yearly vet visits either.

Run as fast as you can from this person. Sounds like a backyard breeder to me. Has your dog had OFA Hip Certifications? CERF exams since puppyhood? Why is your dog not fixed at 3 years old? Did you have intentions of breeding him? There is much much much more to pedigrees than seeing the same dog several times in one pedigree. Are there any pups from her previous litter you can see? Can you talk to those owners? Has her dog had OFA Certifications? Is the dog a show champion or titled in any sport it was bred to do? Is your dog a show dog? Is your dog from a breeder or a pet store? What do you know about your dogs parentage? Christ, this crap makes me so angry! Don't do it!

You need to remember, that Labs and Goldens are the dog of choice of most puppy millers and BYB's. This can also be causing such a severe bad temperment. I doubt the responsible breeders are the cause of this. It's the folks buying dogs from Pet Stores and BYB'ers, thus keeping them in business.

Kiwi I know that some breeds are better off being bred younger and stopping younger. I wish I could say I knew all the ins and outs of breeding all different breeds but I don't :lol: With Belgian Sheepdogs, it's best to wait til 3 years of age for females and 5 for males. If you can get thru the first 3 - 4 years with no seizures you are basically in good shape to breed, if you have something worth breeding.

Voluntary would be nice, but perhaps that is a dream world. Also, breeders should not breed a litter unless they have the entire litter sold "before" conception. To breed just to breed is wrong. Sadly for many people that breed this is a hobby. There is no money to made. It's a tough situation and call this breeding thing. After my last litter, the work involved and everything else I swore I would never do it again. But here I am, expecting a litter in October again, but all of my pups are sold to performance homes.

[quote name='DogPaddle']I wonder how hard it would be to get the majority of folks onboard? Maybe some of Dogo's breeders would give an opinion on this. Would a 2 year break from breeding once every 10 years mess up your work with your breed? Do you think other breeders could be convinced to do this to help out?[/quote] Well, I consider myself a responsible breeder. It is not the responsible breeders that are causing the overpopulation of pets, purebred and mix alike in this world, altho they are a contributing factor. Most responsible breeders won't breed a female more than 2 or 3 times max. I bred my first litter when my bitch was 3 years old, I may do it again when she is 5 1/2 then maybe again at 7 1/2 and that is a big maybe. Breeders should not breed their bitches until at least, a minimum of 3 years of age. This may be different for the toy breeds, I'm not sure. Then the breeder should wait until those pups are at least 2 years old and all pertinent health information is done on the pups to see if there are any genetic diseases or health issues. So IMHO, responsible breeders already do breed a minimum 2 years apart. If the breeders true goal for breeding is to improve the breed, and they have a bitch or dog who has what it takes to improve the breed, the breeder cannot put a 10 year moratorium on breeding. Any good breeder should not breed any female past the age of 8. Unfortunately, dogs can breed until they are quite old. The problem is not the breeders, but who they sell their puppies to, making sure the dogs are neutered or spayed (even if that means paying for it) and not following up and staying in contact with their owners. Having a litter is all fine and good, but it's not "ship them off at 8 weeks old" and that's the end of it. The breeder, if they are responsible, are in that litters life for the next 10 years or so, or until that pup dies from old age. I speak to my puppy buyers once a month (and my pups at 1 yr 2 months old) and some breeders even have chat rooms for the owners to speak to each other if they want to. If a breeder is not caring, to their litter or to their owners, then don't buy a dog from them. Believe me when I tell you I do care about my litter. I drive for hours to visit these pups just to see them and to help the owners with any issues they are having. I have "puppy" parties just to get everyone together and share experiences. No all breeders are uncaring, some, but not all.

Yes a dog bite is the owners responsibility. Her homeowners insurance should pay for it. You can tell your sister to rehome that dog. She is an irresponsible dog owner and you can insist the dog be put down. If your sister was having company it is her responsibility, not her son's to make sure the dog and guests are safe. If that dog bit your son for "no reason" (which I doubt) he is a danger and needs to be assessed by a trained animal behaviorist. As you can see, I have ABSOLUTELY NO TOLERANCE for dogs who bite children for no apparent reason.

Thanks DL, the problem is there is a big demand for Yorkies ..... people love them to death (they are extremely cute and whimsical). Unfortunately they have small litters (maybe 2 or 3 at a time) so that obviously won't meet the demand and they are high up on the scale of BYB dogs :cry: I have a friend who wanted a Yorkie. I told her to find a breeder and wait a year or more if she had too and I told her I would kill the dog if she got it from a pet store :wink: She took my advice and got the sweetest little Yorkie from a reputable breeder. I told her that a breeder won't charge her an arm and a leg for a dog, but a normal price for a purebred dog.

I agree, if you don't understand the process/timing you shouldn't be breeding. Are you a backyard breeder, or are you dogs AKC Champions and health tested.