Humane Education

[behle]

:o [size=6]What's the big attraction in owning an aggressive dog and breeding for that trait? [/size]

My rottie is a sweetheart even though his breed gets plenty of bad press. I got him after I did a lot of reading and talking with rottie owners. The attraction for me was personality, coloring, and build. They are handsome loyal dogs. If he had a mean bone in his body I wouldn't have him. He can be a little willful, but with just a little refresher course about his manners, via voice and rewards, he remembers his job. Oh, he is an inside dog all the time! No chains...he spent the first 8 months of his life on a chain in his former owner's yard. The guy we purchased him from trained dogs for a local sheriff department! Hmmm.... :-? When we pulled up an saw the deep groove all the way around the old car I knew we would take him home regardless of what he looked like! Couldn't leave him there!

Again I pose this question: What is the attraction people feel toward aggressive dogs? Is it a p****** contest?

[Hobbit]

[quote name='laduenda']You obviousely don't have an Apbt Hobbit or you would know what I mean. [b][color=red]Obviously....you still have no clue. I am very well educated on bloodlines, history and the behavior of the APBT --- as having owned them in the past. I do not have one, at the present (as they have all gotten old and passed on). [/color][/b][/quote]

[Hobbit]

[quote name='gigishiba']
**Hugs** :buzi: [color=violet][size=1]making gigi jealous now![/size][/color][color=violet][/color][/quote]

[quote]:WTF: I thought you were my friend!! Two faced....[/quote]

:lol: :lol: 8)

[Hobbit]

[quote name='laduenda']I leave whenever. I am trying to understand you guys . Actually the type of people giving this breed a bad name are people trying to say they are not dog agressive. [b][color=red]No one on this forum as even suggested that they are not dog aggressive. We KNOW they are. [/color][/b]

I am not saying you people do that so don't put words in my mouth.[/quote]

[Guest Anonymous]

Hobbit as I said Don't put words in my mouth I was not talking about you guys. Also dog agression and human agression are two different things and my dogs are not human agressive. No I am not scared to be around my dogs they know I am the alpha and they would never bite me no matter what I did to them. Also for example if there was a puppy running loose in my yard and I saw it and my dogs saw it they would want to get it but if I said no they would leave it alone but they would stillWANT to get it and as soon as I left(no I wouldn't do that)They would get it. But if they were loose who knows . Also how to you get untrained=man agressive it is just not true.Talk to me then tell me civily why you think they are unhappy.

[bk_blue]

[quote name='laduenda']Also not putting a leash on her was dumb like you said that is something I would never ever take a chance with. Also I never said that they could not be trained to be in control.[/quote]

I imagine the reason you would never take a chance letting your dogs go out of the yard unleashed is because you choose not to train them and therefore you are unsure of what they WOULD do if they were unrestrained? :-?

I am constantly maddened by the way a dog has to pay the price, often with its life, for its owner's lack of responsiblity.

Sasha, I am impressed! :D

[Guest Anonymous]

Okay i should say that i am not imparting that your dogs are human aggressive as I said that is not a trait of the well bred, and with the lines you have i have no doubt that they arent aggressive at all. Hence the need for the Mals, but I think that ANY dog will enforce its will if it feels threatened or that its place in the heiarchy is being threatened.

There are some crucial things that you are no comprehending, you are not training BIG, STRONG< GAME_BRED DOGS!!!!. Are you high? you cannot take a dog like that chain it in the back yard and then try to come here and pass yourself off as responsible. Even the worst breeders in the world can get thier hands on great dogs and ruin them, as you seem to be on your way to doing. I am not going to bash your breeding practices, I will not even fake like i am established enough to comment. But as to the way that you are raising the dogs that you have bred, that i can comment on one as a DOG owner and the two as an APBT owner.

You are not helping the fight against the bad rep. Your dogs are big and aggressive and UNtrained. That is exactly the problem with the "Bad guys". Do you get it, yet?

To put it bluntly, i know you are a breeder and you have been doing it a long time, but in the basic form you are that BYB, the one that has the dog he cant control, that barking lunging beast when we are on walks. that yard that noone with a dog will walk by, you are that house that we cross the street to stay away from. Your dogs are the "got loose and ripped up some old ladies chihuahua" dogs.

To need to alter your practices either be more responsible as to what you have or wise up about the people you sell to. Its a gives that if someone wants your dog all they have to do is tell you "Ill be good" then they can go and neglect and fight that dog to the end of the earth.

Have you ever thought of getting references? past vets, ask about the consistency of the visits, or friends or landlords about the way they treat thier animals. Something... ANYTHING!!

Sorry I am not mad at just you its just bad breeders are making it so hard for good owners just to have these dogs BSL everywhere and you cant get home insurance and cant rent most places either. I just really burns me up.
:cooldevil:

[Guest Anonymous]

Sorry I'm so far behind, I've been busy and my Dogo thing has been weird, doesn't show me the new ones that often!

Okay, I have been able to control my dog, she has NEVER bitten another dog! She has bitten ONE person, and everyone on here knows my dog's history, and all the details on that, and that the person, knowing Hazel was aggressive came out towards her. She WAS onlead, but reacted too quickly for me to pull her away. Since that horible insodent, we havent' came across anything such as that! Hazel's aggression has been casused by many reasons, until her I never even HEARD of dog aggression, but since her I have learned PLENTY about it, and am doing all I can to get it under control! Hazel's aggression is quite possibly caused by many things... since Aussies and BC's do have a slight possibility of being aggressive (since they needed to protect the herd) it could be that she just might have came from dogs with this particular trait. I don't know for SURE, however the breeder did say (after I reported her behavior) that there hasn't been any other cases of it.
Hazel was bred for working, but was sold to us as a pet (the breeder knew this too!) so she gets bored easily, and does get a little out of control, and DOES need more manners to be taught to her. Which I have been working on for years! But she just resently got Pulled OFF THE CHAIN and into our warm loving house and is doing MUCH BETTER! YOu wouldn't BELIEVE how much she's improved since then!! Do NOT go judging me and my dog before you know the whole history. I WILL admit Hazel hasn't had the best of a life, but I had NO idea at the time, but now that I do, I'm trying SO HARD to fix it!! Hazel can NOT be relocated, she is too attached to me, and is aggressive (the obvious reason) and so if we were to ever get rid of her, it would have to be to put her to sleep! So before you go sayin that I shouldn't have her if I can't control her, keep that in mind!
I am SO MAD right now, I'm not even going to bother reading this thread anymore, all it does is upset me! I'm with those who say GET OUT OF DOGO, all your doing is upseting everyone and it's OBVIOUS you will not change your horible opinions!
:2gunfire:

[gooeydog]

[quote=ROTT 'N' PIT] Its a given that if someone wants a "pitbull" then they are going to get one, The well bred ones are too expensive so they will get any cur or mix they can get thier hands on. These are the problem dogs and owners. If you spend a 1000 dollars on a dog you are going to show a lot more love and compassion as opposed to the 50 buck mutt you got from the guy up the block.[/quote]
Not true. Look at all the "rare mastiff" breeds that are starting to turn up in shelters... Neos, Cane Corsos, Presas, they all cost quite a bit of money, but somehow they end up in the same place as the $50 mutt. Or how about the people who spend $1000 on a "rare color" pit bull, breed them until they wear out, then dump them at the shelter.

[quote name='la duenda']Also if you are 15 you have no buisness being out and about with a dog agressive Dog[/quote]
And at what age is it suitable for a person to be out and about with a dog aggressive dog? And why is age of the person so important, rather than their ability to control their dog and make sound decisions in any situation?

[quote=ROTT 'N' PIT]Your dogs do not see you as the alpha, and that is bad. you should have supreme control over your dog at any given time, no matter what the distraction, if there are a hundred dogs running by you should be able to control your dog, SAFELY. From what i can tell you dont train at all, you have got to know that is not safe? Do you fell safe around your dogs?[/quote]
Even if the dog does view the owner/handler/whatever as the alpha, there are some things that are enough to "provoke" even the most well-trained, obedient dog. Goo is very dog aggressive (with strange dogs, she can usually be introduced slowly, and tolerates them afterwards), but at the same time, she is trained to sit when she sees another dog, unless told to do otherwise. However, there are some situations (certain dogs, or if a dog runs up to us growling or barking, or if they hop all around in her "space") in which she [i]can't[/i] hold her sit, and will inch forward in an attempt to get close enough to grab the other dog. It's just too much for her to stand. She's very submissive to me, and if I yell at her (to her that's a pretty harsh correction) she cowers and is very "over-eager to please" for a while after (actually, if I even look at her funny, she gets real serious, as if she's wondering why I'm looking at her like that). Even with her being so submissive, she gets so "into" the other dog that she can't focus on anything else, including me. If I can get her attention before the dog does, I can usually keep it, but if I lose it, it's gone, and I really have to work to get it back. It's not so much a "lack of training" (though with more work, she will/would get somewhat better), or "lack of respect", but just her not being able to stand the other dog doing that. I try to keep her out of situations like that, and am also working with her on her control in those type of situations, but at the same time, training, etc will only change her behavior so much.

[Hobbit]

Goo -- you said the magic word.... [color=blue][b]TRAINING[/b][/color]! Which Laduenda "doesn't want to" do.

[corgilady]

Well.... I am just trying to figure out here.....

:hmmmm:

If you don't want to train them.... what DO you want to do with them?

(because it seems to me that any activity you do with a dog requires some level of "training")

[Hobbit]

Does having puppies require any training? :niewiem: :drinking:

[Guest Anonymous]

My dogs are not going to be the ones that got out and ripped up some old ladies chihuahua as they will not get out I make sure of that hence all the regulations on chaining in my contract. You don't know me how come you always think my dogs will get loose. They wont that I am very sure of.No having puppies does not bring in the money I alwyas end up spending more mony there are lots of things to buy that puppies need as well as the Dam.How many people with gamebred dogs do you know that actually gets them off the chain every day? I know someone with 60 dogs and I know it would be impossible to go 60 hours straight walking dogs(no they are not a puppy mill nor are they a friend of mine)So why don't you pick on people like that or people that let their dogs run free ?

[Guest Anonymous]

I am not bashing you as a person I am bashing your practices. It not safe to have so many dogs in a family environment when they arent chained. About the only thing iny our post that you sound confident of is that chain.

This is what we do here, talk about dogs, practices and our opinions, if you cant understand that, what kind of breed forums have you been in?

Any forum that thought that this was fine is a bad place to be let me know so i can steer clear.

[wildbunch]

I have to say laduenda I am utterly disguested. People like you make me sick, how can you possibly condone breeding more aggressiveness into your breed. Don't we have a big enough problem already. How about improving the breed! You do not sound like a responsible breeder nor would I condone anyone buying a dog from you.
This forum is for dog LOVERS. We do not chain our dogs outside and brag that they would rip a puppy apart if given the chance, are you kidding?
Get a life, learn how to LOVE a dog. They are here as companions, protectors and work partners. Your dog need not be bred to attack every living thing that moves. If you insist on breeding and living with dog aggressive dogs, move yourself to an area where you pose no threat to those around you. Take the time to properly train your dogs. Socialize your animals so that they may live in harmony in your household instead of on a chain.[b] Be a responsible human being.[/b] People like you make it so hard to be a dog owner these days. You give us such a bad name.
I'm sick of it.

[bk_blue]

[quote name='laduenda']My dogs are not going to be the ones that got out and ripped up some old ladies chihuahua as they will not get out I make sure of that hence all the regulations on chaining in my contract. I am very sure of what my dogs would do if they got loose they would go find the nearest dog and rip into them that is a given.They are Apbts you know. You don't knwo me how come you always thinkl my dogs will get loose. They wont that I am very sure of.[/quote]

I am sorry but accidents [i]do[/i] happen. Dogs get out. The consquences are not always pretty and just because you are 100% sure your dogs cannot get out (well, they are chained up!) doesn't mean it's a certainty.
I do not know any gamebred ABPTs because the breed is "banned" in my state and has been since 1991. (not that this stops them being advertised... :roll: ) What I do know about the APBT has been gleaned from this forum, from responsible and irresponsible owners alike.
Sasha's example of having her dog under her control is a fine one and a credit to her commitment to responsible ownership of a "dangerous" breed of dog. I think it is abhorrent that you choose not to train your dogs and yet still breed more aggression into them.
You know what my dog would do if he got out and saw a puppy in the front yard? He would be so excited to make a new friend he would probably lick it to death. And I am proud that he is friendly and sociable and not a fearful mess even though heelers can be dominant and dog-aggressive and very territorial.
If you cannot or will not train, exercise, or socialise your dog, then you should not have one in the first place. No matter if you have 2 or 60, the same thing applies.

[Nancy B]

You know, Dobermans were developed as personal protection dogs. Early Dobes couldn't be touched by anyone other than their owner. When Dobes first started showing in America, the judge would not touch them.

Dobermans have evolved just as society has. A good Doberman these days should not be soft, like a Golden or Lab in a Dobe coat. It should pass the Doberman Pinscher Club of America's Working Apptitude test and demonstrate it's ability to evaluate a stimilus and respond in the proper way. A friendly stranger should be either greeted in a friendly manner or ignored. Loud noises call for investigation but, once it's established that there's no threat, the Dobe should recover and resume it's normal position. A direct threat to the handler should bring a Dobe out to the end of it's lead....willing to engage the threat and protect the handler.

Yes, there are still some lines of Dobes (or individuals) that are too soft or too sharp but, generally speaking, I think breeders have done an excellent job of trying to breed for a Dobe that can exist in today's society while staying true to it's original purpose.

What all this boils down to is that we live in a society that (sadly) has breed specific legistlation, people who have a propensity to file lawsuits, insurance companies who fear the financial risk of insuring certain breeds and a trend for people to deny responsiblity for their own actions. You have to "plan" these days for some of the dumb things people will do and then try to hold you responsible for.

I read another post by you a while back...I think it was posted under the aggressive dogs thread. I think your stated opinion was that all dog aggressive dogs except APBTs should be euthanized simply because APBTs will not bite humans and other dog aggressive dogs may do so. Hogwash! There are good breeders in your breed and bad breeders. There are also responsible owners and owners that will try to make their dogs "mean". There are APBTs that will bite humans and those that won't. I would even think it would be possible for one to accidently bite a person if that person was trying to interfere with it killing another dog. (Yeah, maybe that would be dumb of someone to do but people do dumb things.....and then sue.)

You and the dogs you produce don't live in a vaccum, you live in today's society. I think you need to give this some serious thought. I am not saying that you should breed dogs that are like Goldens but, you certainly don't need the level of dog aggressiveness that you've mentioned and your dogs do need to be trained.

[Hobbit]

[quote name='laduenda']My dogs are not going to be the ones that got out and ripped up some old ladies chihuahua as they will not get out I make sure of that hence all the regulations on chaining in my contract. [color=red][b]ONE of YOUR dogs already got out and was ultimately put to sleep. Remember Taz? Or was that just too long ago?[/b][/color]


I am [b]very sure of what my dogs would do [/b]if they got loose they would go find the nearest dog and rip into them that is a given. [b][color=darkred]If you are VERY sure, then you have fought your dogs. Otherwise, how would you be VERY sure of what they'd do, because they NEVER get loose?[/color][/b]


They are Apbts you know. You don't knwo me how come you always thinkl my dogs will get loose. They wont that I am very sure of. [color=red][b]You are living in a dream world. I know some very well accomplished dogmen, who have been breeding APBT's for more than 25 years and they have had accidents. It's going to happen. An APBT can pull upwards of 2500 to 3000lbs. Do you really think that the leather collar around their neck is going to hold if they were to start pulling? Or lunging and pulling? NO, it's going to snap and break like glass. And guess what? The loose dog isn't going to run out of your yard to find another dog to fight with. He/she is going to go after YOUR other dogs that are chained up! [/b][/color]

No having puppies does not bring in the money I alwyas end up spending more mony there are lots of things to buy that puppies need as well as the Dam.How many people with gamebred dogs do you know that actually gets them of f the chain every day? [b][color=darkred]A man from Austin has very well bred dogs, from historically game-bred foundation bloodlines. He rollerblades 10 miles a day, before work and after work with them --- everyday. They live in the house, they both have kennels, one has run of the house. [/color][/b]


I know someone with 60 dogs and I know it would be impossible to go 60 hours straight walking dogs(no they are not a puppy mill nor are they a friend of mine)So why don't you pick on people like that or people that let their dogs run free ?[/quote]

[Guest Anonymous]

Laduenda,
Don't even go there. It is a joke to even state "my dogs will not ever get loose". I know Pitbulls. I know lots of their owners. Pitbulls do BITE PEOPLE. Pitbulls disfigure people for life. Pitbulls kill. The owners of Pitbulls and their breeding practices are the cause of dog laws that restrict those of us that are responsible animal owners. People like you that breed aggressive animals truly pi** me off. I pay the price for your actions and I do not like it. You have 7 nasty mean dogs on chains in mud. There is no excuse. If your dog gets loose it will be killed because it will kill an innocent animal or attack a human. Anyone that believes that a dog aggressive dog won't attack a human is a fool. If you aren't a puppy mill and don't run a fight ring, there is no reason to keep 7 dogs. You can preach your propaganda till dooms day but I have seen way to much to buy into the bull. You don't want to change things and you don't want to train your dogs. You have the dogs because they are making you money. You know what kind of people buy them but you don't care. You are trying to pass your self off as a good breeder. That is a joke.
I also do not buy the rescue dog story. It was your swimmer pups you wrote in about. I feel very sorry for the dogs in your custody.

[Luka-pop]

I haven't had enough time to read 6 pages of posts, so somebody prolly already said this, but Laduenda, I don't like how you diss us who rescued our dogs. [color=red]I also diagree about your contract, especially how the dogs required only a minimum of one hour of socialization a day.[/color] That could mean being with your dog while watching one Animal Precinct show, or walking your dog for an hour, or playing ball for an hour. [color=red]It's important for dogs to be with their owners while they're just doing everyday "stuff." [/color] An hour of straight play is definitely not enough. They need to be able to cuddle, watch TV with the family, and just sleep around, while the owner is home. A minimum of an hour a day of socialization is definitely not enough, especially if you're breeding pits. Also, have you ever visited petsheltr.org or something, and seen so many pits for adoption? It's cuz people mess up with obvious reasons. Bad training, lack of socialization, you get my point. I don't know much, but my point is, [color=red]don't diss rescued dogs if you're breeding the way you are.[/color] There are plenty of pits at the shelters that would make great companions. [color=red]We don't nee anymore unwanted, misunderstood pits, or any breed, for that matter.[/color] And don't make bad comments about other people and their dogs if you don't know about them. Don't assume, and don't think that you're the only sensible dog breeder/owner here. Accept the fact that many people disagree with your ways and practices.

[Guest Anonymous]

After talking on this post it actually got me thinking and in doing so it got me in book and doing research first on APBTs as a breed and then just dogs in general. Do you know what i found? Basically what we have been telling you I cant find a single breed of dog that is recommended to live on a chain, or to be given an hour of human socialization. I did however find that in several books find that game doesnt equal agression,(someone said that im not sure who). Basically its just the never give up attitude of the breed. Now i also read the game-bred was used as "code" for dog-fighters back in the day. As a way to sell the pups for that specific purpose but still reamin secretive in the practice. Now you are very high and mighty as to the gameness of your dogs yet you steadfastly deny any fighting of them. How can you call them game if you have never tested it. Aside from fighting there is nothing even remotely challenging that your dogs do. They sit on the chain and eat. YOu cannot test the game ability of a dog on a chain.
:black:

[courtnek]

Because of my golden-lab, this whole subject pisses me off. He spent his life chanined outside to a TREE, of all things, and my sons grandfather helped and released him from strangulation 3 times a week....

he was so happy to see Mel that he jumped up on him, knocked his hearing aid out, and then ate it.....oooppsss....

His owners constantly had the police at their house, for domestic abuse.
the best thing I ever did was take him off their hands....

they were planning on putting him to sleep, because he snarled at the boyfriend when he abused the girl....

SHE needs real help - I'm glad **I** have Alex now!!

He's the gold dog in the avatar...

[Guest Anonymous]

First of all Labradors should not be chained.I never said my dogs were GAme Just Gamebred there is a difference.Who said my dogs were kept chained in Mud? They are not in Mudd if the area gets muddy I mobve them or bring them in and crate them I do have a couple of dog runs that I can put them in but it only gets muddy when it rains which is not very often and they are kept in crates or in the house when the weather gets bad I also have a two car garage where I can keep a couple of them in bad weather. If you knew anything you would know that I know very well that being in mudd or around stagnent water is VERY bad and I do not personally like walking barefoot in mudd so why should my dogs like it? They are not my swimmer puppies they are rescues like I said I whelp them in the house in a whelping box(Well actually the mother of the puppies whelps them I am just there in case there are problems)They are whelped on carpet when she is finished the carpet is changed and a clean carpet is put down after I am thinking about buying some of those fleece pads to put down in the whelping box as they are a lot easier to change and keep clean.I do not make any money . I spent a lot of money thousands of dollars on my dogs not to mention the food,vaccinations,vet exams,shipping expenses,crates,bones,toys,collars ,leashes ,harnesses,entry fees,Wormers,Registration fees,scales(for weighin puppies)the computer,A soon to be website,Buisness cards,photos of the dogs, not to mention the $50 a week I spend on dog food. Now tell me how I am making a profit because by god I wish I was but I am not I breed because I enjoy it and I enjoy having the dogs like
I said I do always have at least one with me even in the house and I rotate which ones stay in but I guess all of you skipped over that part.
Hobbit:TAZ was not in my custody remember? and he was not on the chain when he got out,that was the problem he never got loose when on the chain and yes I did see their chain setup before that happend. If he would have been able to have been chained he would never have gotten out plain and simple.No my dogs do not get loose. When I first started out six years ago I lost one bitch due to a chain accident I have learned since then what swivel are reliable and which ones are not. I do not use leather collars ,I use a double layer nylon collar that is 1 1/2 half inches wide and I use a seperate o-ring through the collar to attach the chain to not the one that is sewn into the collar. No they will not get lose as long as you check all of the equipment very I am through listening to you rediculouse people you don't really read my posts and you take them way out of context you cannot understand why someone would want a so called fighting breed unless they fight them I don't know why you guys like all the breeds you like I personally cannot stand them. Also I wish the Doberman was llike it used to be then I would have one of them to but the new dobies are to soft for me. I am sure that Louis Doberman would be horrified at what you have done to the breed he helped develope although there is some controversy as to wether it was around before his time no one can deny that he had a big impact on the breed . The doberman from these times would have been no use to him which is very sad considering it is named after him. Also does the guy with rollerblades breed them? Does he have more than 2 males and 2 females? They are dog agressive I would not even trust a female and a male to be left alone unsupervised.I can see that you guys have no understanding for the only true original bulldog of the old and I will leave it at that . Goodbye! I will post occasionally on other topics maybe.

[Guest roo]

Don't you think after 6 years I know what these dogs are like and what they could be capable of doing to another animal?I learned the hard way about a lot of things but I LEARNED . I am through listening to you rediculouse people you don't really read my posts and you take them way out of conext you cannot understand why someone would want a so called fighting breed unless they fight them I don't know why you guys like all the breeds you like I personally cannot stand them

[size=6][b]Ok enough of the poo posting, yes we all learn every day. spelling lessons would not go a miss either :roll: ... i find it very sad you can not understand how we feel, how we think, at the end of the day we are all dog lovers here we are not blind to only one breed, if you deliberately breed for dog aggression well what can i say, as you say you dont fight them, why the hell would you do such an un forgivable thing to a breed that is on the verge of being banned because of idiotic breeders.[/b][/size]


I am sure that Louis Doberman would be horrified at what you have done to the breed he helped develope although there is some controversy as to wether it was around before his time no one can deny that he had a big impact on the breed . The doberman from these times would have been no use to him which is very sad considering it is named after him.

[size=6][b]I am also sure that Louis D would have been proud to see that RESPONSIBLE people have become guardians to the breed he invented,
i think he would have been horrified to see the breed go down the same road as the APBT due to irresponsilbe breeding and ignorance.
Maybe the Dobe has changed in temperement BUT if owners are in a situation of danger they follow through. Bred in them yes, but for protection the true dobe is not a vicious lunatic ready to attack anyone,
may i suggest you study the breed before commenting.[/b][/size]

If you are leaving this forum them fine, go , goodbye, but please think about what you are doing and why :roll: I understand you love your breed in your own way. But ignorance is NOT BLISS.

[Guest Anonymous]

It is obvious you will not hear the truth and accept it as such. You will remain ignorant as you refuse to learn. You leave your dogs on chains, in mud, ( I don't believe you move them when it rains or when the urine builds up). The pads of their feet must be in terrible condition. The dogs are not trained so can't be treated at a Vet. They may kill other dogs waiting for treatment. You do not love the breed. You love owning aggressive dogs, the status. When the entire breed is banned, as it already is in many countries, YOU will be responsible. Live with that.