Humane Education

[Hobbit]

[quote name='laduenda']First off they didn't want him to be put in a wire crate because their would have been no one to let him out if it all day long 8-10 hours so he more than likely would have been sitting in it all day(yeah he would really have loved that).Also he if he was loose in the house he would again have had the same problem(no one to let him out) and if the would have put a doggie door then he would have of course jumped the fence. [b][color=red]But, they would rather him pay the ultimate price .... with his life. Yeah, that's makes sense. [/color][/b]

I was not reffering to them Barking when crated They bark when in a kennel or DOGRUN! [b][color=darkred]But, don't bark when on a chain? I find that hard to believe. Dogs bark regardless of where they are.[/color][/b]

If you have never had a Gamebred Apbt you have no way of knowing the innate desire to fight that these dogs have you would not know that they could tear through fences dig under them ignore shock collars eat through doors ,climb trees(some of them anyways) just about anything to get at the other dog they will even keep digging until their nails are bleeding (or their teeth) trying to get out. [b][color=red]YES, I am very much aware of *game-bred* APBT's. AND, it's people like you that are continuing to breed these dogs that will stop at nothing to get at another dog, because they are so dog aggressive. YOU are doing nothing to breed non-dog aggressive dogs in an effort to SAVE the APBT from ultimate demise.[/color][/b]

Why is it not cruel to you to keep a dog in a kennel in a humane society or rescue for 6-9 months in a 6by8 cell but it is cruel to keep them on a 10 foot chain which would give them20 feet in diameter to play in. [b][color=darkred]I said nothing about my opinion concerning dogs in the humane society or rescue. At least they are SAFE and are not having their head almost bashed in![/color][/b]

In the kennel they could not run away and they would have to fight as well right? Also I have seen many many agressive dogs(of different breeds) that were kept on a chain BECAUSE the were mean . It did not make them mean. Also lots of kennel dogs get kennels shy and shyness means possible fear biters. [color=red][b]You are grasping at straws and have no idea what you are talking about. [/b][/color]

I am not worried about it because those of us who chain will chain regardless of the laws even if that means moving to another country. Because we know that when our dogs get out because you thaught it was cruel to keep them chained they will get your dogs and kill them and then you will say our dogs are vicouse and you will want them put to sleep .That is cruel in my opinion. [b][color=darkred]That is not what I said. A safe enclosure is always the best. Chaining a dog is the last resort. Again, YOU are doing NOTHING to promote the APBT's or improve their image.[/color][/b]

Who ever said my dogs could not be left alone in the house?They cannot be left alone together because they are Apbts' No Apbt should be left alone unsurpervised with any other animals. [color=red][b]These dogs should not be bred if they are dog or animal aggressive. AGAIN, YOU are doing nothing to improve the image of the APBT.[/b][/color]

Someone had frase on their shirt somewhere it went something like this
"Those who know ,Can't explain Those who don't can't understand". [b][color=darkred]I know. YOU have NO idea. All you know it that you have some cool *game* bred dogs that will kill another dog if they get out. This is doing nothing to improve the image of the breed that will meet it's demise because of people as you! [/color][/b]

You aare the kind of person that says"It is all in how you raise them". [b][color=red]YOU have NO IDEA as to the "kind" of person I am. It's ALL genetics, something that you have already proven that you don't care about. If you did, then you would not have bred or still be breeding dog aggressive dogs! IT'S inherited, IT'S passed on to the offspring and this very way of thinking (breeding aggressive dogs) is going to be the cause of the APBT being a banned breed. [/color][/b]

Or "pitbulls will be fine at dog parks" Or lets "let all animals run loose throughout the neigborhood because it is cruel to confine them". [b][color=darkred]ALL dogs should be on a leash, regardless of where they are --- dog parks included! NO dog should be allowed to run the neighborhood loose. Again, you have NO idea who I am or what my stance on things are. YOU are only trying to place blame onto someone else. [/color][/b]

You probably think the Iditarod is cruel(Even though the dogs love it)Or weight pulling,Or maybe you think it is cruel to ride a horse because maybe the horse will have back problems later. [color=red][b]I own a working cattle ranch > we ride horses for a living. You are showing how little you know.[/b][/color]

You probably also advocate not vaccinating puppies and taking them to parks even though un vaccinated. [b][color=darkred]We vaccinate at 6, 9, 12, and 16 wks old. No, we don't go to parks because WE LIVE ON SEVERAL SECTIONS OF LAND. Again, you are just digging yourself a deeper hole -- you have no clue. [/color][/b]

You would probably go to a cockfighting farm(or whatever you call it) and let all those fighting cocks off of their tie outs you would not be able to comprehend that by doing that they will al start mass fighting and killing each other and you alone will be responsible for hte massacre of hundreds of chickens. [b][color=red]Oh please, just how ignorant do you think some people are? I have RAISED bantams for breeding stock. I was raised and live on a farm. [/color][/b]

:agrue: Anyways Hummaniacs should be outlawed or :evil: :grab: [b][color=red]YOU should be banned for continuing to breed dog-agressive dogs[/color][/b].[/quote]

[Guest Anonymous]

I 100% agree, you (laduenda) aren't doing anything to stop breeding these Dog Aggressive Dogs!!! I know what it's like having an aggressive dog, it is HORIBLE! Everyone here knows I love this dog with every inch of my heart, and have been trying everythin in my power (which unfortanatlly insn't much) to help get her under control! I would NEVER (even if she wasn't fixed) Breed her because that would be SO wrong! There would be a posibility that the pups would turn out aggressive, since it can be passed down through breeding (obviously you aggree since you say that the APBT is aggressive, that is a breed, which means it gets passed down) causing more chaos (sp?) and more poor dogs being "put to sleep" and killed!! The fact that you keep breeding these Aggressive dogs is IRISPONSIBLE!!!! :evilbat: I'm 15 years old, I KNOW THIS!!! Since your a "breeder" I'm sure your hell of a lot older then me, and you STILL don't know this? COME ON! Do some damn research!!!
It's people like YOU that are ruining the APBT!!! YOU are the cause of what happened to TAZ because YOU bred his parents in the first place!!! Which were no doubt aggressive!
I am so mad right now I could spit! :evil:

I'm sorry guys, I've been reading a lot of posts about animal curelty and such on here, it's gettin me in a really bad mood... I think I'm guna go look up some training advice, maybe it'll calm me down!

[eggrolyn1223]

[quote=ROTT'N'PIT]If you want to SEE what really happens with various places and various cases of animal cruelty go to Animals Voice and take a look at some of thier galleries. I warn you guys do look if you do not really want to know. You will cry and be very upset, but for thse of you who are curious about what really goes on here and abroad i urge you to browse through the galleries.

[url]http://www.animalsvoice.com/PAGES/home.html[/url][/quote]
I had no idea the graphics would be that...gross...Saw a pic and I am never going to go on that website again... :o :cry: It's just so cruel!I'm probably going to be a vegetarian now.. :( Poor animals!! :cry:

[Kiger]

[quote=ROTT'N'PIT]If you want to SEE what really happens with various places and various cases of animal cruelty go to Animals Voice and take a look at some of thier galleries. I warn you guys do look if you do not really want to know. You will cry and be very upset, but for thse of you who are curious about what really goes on here and abroad i urge you to browse through the galleries.

[url]http://www.animalsvoice.com/PAGES/home.html[/url][/quote]

Again, this is another AR site and for everything you see here, the other side can come up with pictures that refute it. Don't get all your info from sites like PETA, HSUS, etc... These are the people who would like to see an end to companion animals - period. No dogs, no cats, no contact of any kind with any animal - nada. PETA also supports ALF which is pretty much a terrorist organization in my book. These groups prey on emotions and are very good at manipulation and down right lying about some things - i.e. riding horses - to get their way. Yeah, they piss me off almost as bad as animal abusers. :evil:

[Hobbit]

I visited the site and for some of the situations, I bet I can come up with a scenario as to what ACTUALLY happened.

They take pictures (out of context) the way they want YOU, as the public, to see them. NOT how they actually were. Which just makes the AR, PETA, and other terrorist-related groups look like liars.

[Guest Anonymous]

APBTs ae dog agressive if you were to breed this out of the dog you would not be breeding to the standard which is just as bad as oversived or undersized or any other form of munipulation that is capable by breeding. The key is not to ruin the breed but adust the owners and breeders. Owners to keep the dog RESPONSIBLY and breeders to sell to RESPONSIBLE owners. Its a given that if someone wants a "pitbull" then they are going to get one, The well bred ones are too expensive so they will get any cur or mix they can get thier hands on. These are the problem dogs and owners. If you spend a 1000 dollars on a dog you are going to show a lot more love and compassion as opposed to the 50 buck mutt you got from the guy up the block. Sad but true, I and we here are affirmed animal lovers so even if a dog was fre i would give him all the love he could stand but society at large isnt quite as devoted. YOU as a breeder need to know everything about the people who will be getting your dog as they are your responsibility. Now i can understand that you had no knowledge of the events until it was too late, but to blame any one other than the dogs owners is silly. You harbor more fault than the neighbors do.

I am not trying to point blame as I said i know the power and dedication of an APBT so i know what they can do, ut you should be warning your potential buyers of that as well.
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[Guest Anonymous]

Kiger- I have to say that this sight says nothing they dont badger you with quotes or try to lean you one way or the other they just show the pictures and let you make your own mind. I personally have never seen some of these images anywhere. Bear-baiting, hen-laying, dog and cat eating, animal experiments, whaling, sealing, and all other things that are often talked of but seldom caught on film. It is a real eye opener. I am no fool i dont buy into anything easily but when its staring you in the mouth you cant really argue with it, because its right there in full color.

[Guest Anonymous]

I am sorry Hobbit I mistook you for a Humaniac which you obviuosely are not lol. But Dog agression is inherent in this breed as you said and I know that that is why my contract states that. Whatever happend to TAZ is in the past I just don't like people looking over my shoulder dictating every move I make. If I wanted to breed pitbull look alikes I would have gotten a STAFF . No I am doing nothing to change the breed As I am breeding TO PRESERVE the breed .Dog agression does not equal gameness either.

[Guest Anonymous]

APBT and AmStaffs are the same dog. They just changed the name for acceptance in the AKC. Over time the AmStaff has maintained a softer temperment mostly because it is a show breed version, but all in all they are the same.
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[Guest Anonymous]

You know you don't have to assume that all I do is make them a contract they also get interviewed Also BSL is because ignorant people have let their dogs get out and kill people something my dogs would not do. No I was refferin To Am .Staffs which were once the same breed as Apbt's but now are not. No I do not have big oversized blue dogs and no I do not use my animals ,sell them or train them in any way for illegal purposes. What I meant by I do not sell dogs to people like you is. That since you obviousely do not want a dog agressive dog then these dogs would not be the right ones for you. Most of my puppies are kept inside as family pets they are not chained or kenneld they are spayed or neutered and they are trained(obedience).My dogs do compete in weight pull etc. but I do not breed very often(1-2 times per year if that) and I keep most of my dogs. If they outlaw the breed I will still have them and I will still breed them go ahead and write that down Also there are other countries I could move to. Also if I had to choose another breed it would be a Fila or a Malinois and no I would not buy one from the US.Also you don't know me I usually don't even get the dogs ears cropped as it is not necessary (only one has cropped ears) Also just so you know I currently have 5 deposites for my next planned breeding and I am keeping the 1st pick male and female .If you think I should add or change things in my contract then just let me know I am open to opinions.Why do you think it is cruel?Really I cannot understand your thinking and there seem to be a lot of you.

[Carolk9s]

Just curious, being that laduenda and others feel that breeding some or all of the dog aggressiveness out of a pit would be wrong, is there a bona fide reason these dogs were bred to be dog aggressive in the first place? Not just for sport, not just for fun, did it ever truly serve a purpose? A purpose such as herding dogs helping with the flocks or herds, hunting dogs helping put food on the table, working dogs serving mankind in SO many ways.
Certainly I would agree that SOME traits of the breeds should be preserved, those that serve a useful purpose. Even if my herding dog was to have never seen sheep, his ability to work them would be a good thing. Even if a lab or golden never gets to retrieve a bird, their ability to do so would be a good thing.
Breeds have EVOLVED over time, they are not used for their original purpose. How many Borzoi today run down wolves and kill them? What if they still did? What if breeders of Borzoi boasted about how 'game' their dogs were and that the aggression in their dogs was 'natural' and desired? What if this meant your average dog on the street was not safe as the breeding of Borzoi over time meant that any canine in their path was subject to being attacked or killed?
Just how stupid does one have to be to celebrate their dog aggressive dogs and insist on perpetuating this because it's part of the dogs history?
What good is dog to dog aggression? Will it be the downfall of the pit bull? Will BSL be enacted more and more? Face it laduenda, breeders who INSIST on their RIGHT and DUTY to breed dog aggressive dogs are hand in hand with those who fight their dogs, you will share the responsibility of your supposedly beloved breed being banned, shot on sight, destroyed in shelters, hated and feared by the general public. You also share the responsibility for the BYB's who have jumped on the 'tough dog' bandwagon and breed dogs that are not only dog aggressive but are increasing human aggressive due to poor breeding practices.
I sick to death of hearing people like you talk about how much you love and care about your dogs while you continue to decrease those very dogs right to survival in a world that DOES NOT HAVE A NEED for dog aggressive dogs!
If there survival depended on evolving to a dog that was not inclined to simply attack another dog on sight, why would you NOT want to breed in that direction? If it did, would you want your dogs to evolve? Or die out?

[Guest Anonymous]

I must disagree the AmStaff and the APBT are the exact same dog. If you never add anything and only breed back to purebreds how do you think they can be different? Because of their temperment? I know you cant seriously think that.

Honestly i hear this all the time and have yet to get an answer that is any good.
HOW ARE THE AMSTAFF AND APBT TO BE CONSIDERED DIFFERENT BREEDS?

[Guest Anonymous]

Well if borzois were like that then I would probably have one of them too. No net everyones dog is in danger of being attacked by a dog agressive dog as long as the owner of the dog agressive is responsible about not letting his/her dog get another dog this means that you may have to physically pick your dog up off the ground to keep him/her from doing that. Also I hope all those people out there with those 15 foot retractable leads and free roaming dogs know how much of a pain in the behind their dogs are. Also I guess there never was a purpose for being dog agressive.The would have had to have been animal agressive though to catch bulls which is what they were created for. It depends on the bloodline of the Apbt and the Amstaff Show bred Apbt's have been bred for many many years for things other than gameness the same goes for Amstaffs Gamebred Apbt's have still and are still being bred for gameness(I never said mine were game so don't start going on about that) so temperment wise they are different and for the most part showbred dogs are less dog agressive but the dog agression is still there. I don't want Apbt's to be labs if I wanted a lab I would have got one.But genetically speaking Apbt's and Am.Staffs are the same(I guess)

[Carolk9s]

So sad to hear you also have Belgian Malinois. Wonder how many have had to be rescued that were of your breeding or associated with your breeding.

[Guest Anonymous]

The APBT (Actually most bullies) was bred FOR DOG FIGHTING, no matter what you hear that is what it boils down to. now the bulldogs they are from were for bull catching, and bear/bull-bating but after these practices were outlawed and it was almost impossible to get a secret place to do them, they decided to have dog- dog fights. The dogs were originally too big and slow now a very good fight so they bred them down by only breeding the smaller, faster dogs. This is where the term pit bull cxomes from. That is why they are dog aggressive no matter what you do there WILL be a hint of it. Where APBTs are concerned the problem is that they actually enjoy fighting, the best way around this is to NEVER let your dog have its first fight, immediately stop ALL aggression with a stern tone. Bully of all breeds have the same charactersitics but dog on dog agression is extremely pronounced in the APBT.

The standard clearly states dog agression, but it also has a laundry list of great qualities that most dogs cant claim, among them the APBT rates in the top five in the temperment testing for breeds. They are great kid dogs, let me stop myself before i go too far.

The breed is great is when you put a dog of its capabilities in the hands of someone who isnt ready or doesnt know, or worse does know and doesnt care, thats when you get problems.
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[Guest Anonymous]

COULDNT HAVE SAID IT BETTER. Control is the defiante key, as far as breeding it out no, stick wth the AmStaff, that are better to a degree. But there are lots of ABPTs that are raised iwth other dogs and never have a problem that is where good training comes in. If you have the time you can have a dog of any breed and never have problems. Its the people who never train thier dog and just expect them to know better and know how to behave have the problems. YOu have to actually put your dog into the situations to teach it the proper reactions, not just hope it never occurs, if you think that you are never going to encounter another dog then your sick. You must get your dog out and let it meet lots of good dogs so that it knows it doesnt have to fight and scquabble with anythingon 4 legs.

[Guest Anonymous]

Actually I don't breed my Malinois (just two of them) and I never have and I never will. They are just here to keep the dog thieves away(and the rapists etc..) Aobt's are to human friendly to do that job. Actually my male Malinois was a rescue of sorts I got him in Mexico from a police officer he had been a prison guard dog in Hermosillo. The prison had had a Riot and some prisoners got out and decided to beat the guard dog and the handler they beat him so bad they broke his back left hip and his front right leg. He had to have surgery on both and he did. His back leg is now a little bit shorter than the fron and he still walks with a limp but the vet says that he is not in any pain(but somedays I wonder) he is taking Glucosamine and he is a pretty good dog but he is very agressive but I would be too if I had to go through what he went through.

[Guest Anonymous]

There should be more bully moms like you. Stories like that make me smile and glow. That guy walked away with a new respect for APBTs and is probably a little jealous that his dog probably couldn preform that reliably. Good Job.
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[Hobbit]

[quote name='laduenda']I am sorry Hobbit I mistook you for a Humaniac which you obviuosely are not. But Dog agression is inherent in this breed as you said and I know that that is why my contract states that. Whatever happend to TAZ is in the past I just don't like people looking over my shoulder dictating every move I make. I do breed dog agressive dogs and yes I am proud of it. It is as much a part of the breed as retrieveing is for a lab or herding is for a border collie. If I wanted to breed pitbull look alikes I would have gotten a STAFF . I understand it may be hard and scary for you to have a dog agressive dog that is why I do not sell puppies to people like you. [b][color=red]You just won't quit, will you? I am so very glad that you know all about me. I DO have some dog-aggressive dogs that is why I do NOT sell pups from these dogs to the PUBLIC, like YOU DO. [/color][/b]

I realizee that a lot of people cannot handle a gamebred Apbt that is why I also breed U.K.C Show bred Apbts because they are toned down a little and easier for some people to handle but they are still Apbt's and they are still prone to dog agression. No I am doing nothing to change the breed As I am breeding TO PRESERVE the breed .When pitbulls are banned I will still have them and I will still be breeding them unlike the other people who are out for looks only. [color=darkred][b]So, you also fight your dogs? [/b][/color]

Dog agression does not equal gameness either. Also if you are 15 you have no buisness being out and about with a dog agressive Dog Especially if you are frightend about it.I will post a copy of my contract in a minute. [b][color=red]WHAT? Oh, this is funny. Thank you, but NO I am well past 15 years old. You can't even get that straight. I'm sure that you will continue to breed and sell to whom ever will give you money for your dogs. It is obvious that you are not a responsible owner, breeder, or keeper of the APBT as a breed. [/color][/b][/quote]

[Guest Anonymous]

No hobbit I was not reffering to you as being 15 years old some other person posted that they were 15 I was reffering to them. I do sell dog agressive dogs to the public but not to the unknowing public also almost everyone who breeds Apbt's does as it is very commen in the breed.It is even mentioned in the standard I believe.Also I was not reffering to you when I was talking about you being scared to have a dog aggressive dog I was reffering to someone else who posted not you.

[Hobbit]

[quote name='sashagirl']Finally some sense in this thread!

Story: One day I was walking out of my mothers house. I had Sasha, my 2 year old APBT. We were leaving, my car was parked in the driveway, so being dumb like I can be at times, I did not put a leash on her. We walked out the front door, and there in the front yard was a Golden, going to the bathroom in the yard. Sasha froze and I could tell by her stance she wasn't happy. The guy on the other end of the leash of the golden looked scared. All I said, was "Don't even think about it" Sasha took two steps backwards, sat down at the heel position, and looked up at me right in my eyes. She did not take her eyes from me. The guy was like WOW, that's a good dog. I said thank you, and I'm sorry I didn't see you out here. His dog finished and they left. Sasha never moved. I turned opened the car door, and in she went. Again I say, it's all about training. The only thing in the APBT tempermant that is stronger than dog aggression, is the strong desire to please their owner.[/quote]


Sash -- you know what I mean. I hope you are not thinking that I am for breeding the APBT out of existence, that is surely not what I meant. Good dogs come from good breeding and responsible, educated owners.

It is the owners who spout "my dog can kill any dog here", are the ones that are adding fuel to the fire of banning this breed. And the ones that continually breed, when not understanding the inherited aggression, and then *giving* the pups away to friends, or selling pups to whomever has a few dollars.

CONTROL -- just like you & Rott said. If the dog can't be controlled, then he/she shouldn't be bred. There is a big difference between uncontrollable aggression with an ill temper and controlled, obedient aggression.

[Guest Anonymous]

I never said my dogs could kill any of your dogs although they probably could since they are a breed bred historically for fighting and baiting other animals but I don't ever want to find out. I don't let my dogs get in fights no matter what. I do not give away puppies,Dump them or sell them to anyone who has the money.I will keep any and all of them that I do not find a home for if this means forever then forever it will be. Also I understand very well about dog agression and I see no problems with it. I commend you for your dog being able to listen to you that way most dogs would not thier prey drive would over come them even if they just wanted to play.Also not putting a leash on her was dumb , like you said that is something I would never ever take a chance with. Also I never said that they could not be trained to be in control and listening to the owner when another dog is around they just will fight if given the opportunity(or within reach of the other dog). Also the attitude of an Apbt is do or die so that means they will keep trying to get what they want no matter what until they get it or they die. You obviousely don't have an Apbt Hobbit or you would know what I mean.

[Guest Anonymous]

[quote name='sashagirl'][quote name='Hobbit'][quote name='sashagirl']Finally some sense in this thread!

Story: One day I was walking out of my mothers house. I had Sasha, my 2 year old APBT. We were leaving, my car was parked in the driveway, so being dumb like I can be at times, I did not put a leash on her. We walked out the front door, and there in the front yard was a Golden, going to the bathroom in the yard. Sasha froze and I could tell by her stance she wasn't happy. The guy on the other end of the leash of the golden looked scared. All I said, was "Don't even think about it" Sasha took two steps backwards, sat down at the heel position, and looked up at me right in my eyes. She did not take her eyes from me. The guy was like WOW, that's a good dog. I said thank you, and I'm sorry I didn't see you out here. His dog finished and they left. Sasha never moved. I turned opened the car door, and in she went. Again I say, it's all about training. The only thing in the APBT tempermant that is stronger than dog aggression, is the strong desire to please their owner.[/quote]


Sash -- you know what I mean. I hope you are not thinking that I am for breeding the APBT out of existence, that is surely not what I meant. Good dogs come from good breeding and responsible, educated owners.

It is the owners who spout "my dog can kill any dog here", are the ones that are adding fuel to the fire of banning this breed. And the ones that continually breed, when not understanding the inherited aggression, and then *giving* the pups away to friends, or selling pups to whomever has a few dollars.

CONTROL -- just like you & Rott said. If the dog can't be controlled, then he/she shouldn't be bred. There is a big difference between uncontrollable aggression with an ill temper and controlled, obedient aggression.[/quote]

I know what you mean Hobbit! I was not talking about you! I respect what you say about anything. (Which is more than I can say for some who have posted in this thread!)

**Hugs** :buzi: [color=violet][size=1]making gigi jealous now![/size][/color][color=violet][/color][/quote]

:WTF: I thought you were my friend!! Two faced....

[Guest Anonymous]

I leave whenever. I am trying to understand you guys . Actually the type of people giving this breed a bad name are people trying to say they are not dog agressive,People who sell their puppies for $30 at the swap meet,Gangsters,Thugs etc people who let their dogs loose without a leash. Even the ones that think it is ok to take them to dog parks. Also humane societies who adopt out Apbt's to people who have no clue about the breed.I am not saying you people do that so don't put words in my mouth.

[Guest Anonymous]

I dont want you to leave I want you to understand me. lets slow this down a bit... The way you are raising your dogs is not good. They are not happy LIVING on a chain, or in a kennel, or anywhere but with you. If you have so many dogs that you cant train them responsibly.... you have too many. I am not going to bash or anything like that I really want you to hear me. It seems like you think your doing right and if you really think that, okay. But from the outside looking in its not good.

Your dogs do not see you as the alpha, and that is bad. you should have supreme control over your dog at any given time, no matter what the distraction, if there are a hundred dogs running by you should be able to control your dog, SAFELY. From what i can tell you dont train at all, you have got to know that is not safe? Do you fell safe around your dogs?