Narrowed it down to 2 breeders - your oppinions please?

[Guest Mutts4Me]

I understand that she plans on studding her dog out. I'm just saying I don't think that means that she's getting him to make money. She's looking to partially recover the costs of getting a quality dog and putting it through a show career.

Now, a colleague of mine this summer told me that she was planning on breeding her Siberian at least once "because she's AKC, and I may as well make back some of the money I spent on her." Now [b]that[/b] was upsetting to me. But someone planning to get a quality dog and make sure it's proven to be a good representative of the breed and then stud it out to continue its lines and improve the breed doesn't seem to be in it for money.

I keep hearing on this forum that the show ring is the tool for selecting the best [i]breeding stock[/i] for future generations. And I've heard several times that there's not point in showing a dog and letting it earn titles if you're not planning on breeding it afterwards (if it has proven itself, that is). And now suddenly people seem to be freaking because someone is saying outright that they're going to stud their dog after he's earned his titles and proven himself a fine representative of the breed.

Yes, she mentioned money. That makes me bristle sometimes too, but in all honesty, this time it seemed to be an after thought... thinking out loud, if you will. She's trying to justify to herself spending a lot of extra money on getting just the right dog, and so she thought that maybe it might be made up a bit once his career was over and she could breed him.

(Now, I don't know Aurora. Few people on this board really know each other, but I'd like to think that after someone's been here long enough and seems to be a good person and good dog owner, that it's okay to give them the benefit of the doubt when we're not sure we understand them, instead of assuming the worst.)

[AllAmericanPUP]

I have a friend who shows american pit bull terriers.
She has some very very nice representations of the breed(K knows who i'm talkin about)
she shows them, some of them are champions, and she does weight pull with them.
she has tons of ribbons and trophies for her dogs.
she spends tons of money in conditioning them and taking them to the shows.
does she breed em? NOPE. Why? Because she refuses to breed when there are so many dying in shelters/rescues every day, week, month and year.

Showing is NOT JUST for choosing breeding stock, LOTS of people just do it just for fun.

[Aroura]

Thank you Mutts, I'm glad somebody here can see where I'm coming from!

Kendalyn, I'm curious as to why you are concerned that I am thinking about the possibility of studding him out before I even get him? It only makes sence to me, that I would go through all this effort to get a dog from only the best lines and intend to stud him out, as opposed to getting a dog from a BYB and then deciding I might as well stud him? There are plenty of breeders closer by who sell pups for a lot cheaper if thats what I wanted to do!

Everyone has their own views on breeding, in many respects I am strongly against most breeding, but honestly, I don't see the harm in striving for the best and striving to better the breed, the other alternative is that I don't stud, breeders have less QUALITY stud dogs to chose from so all breed from the same stud, the gene pool grows ever smaller and more problems crop up from inbreeding. To be honest if he didn't turn out well (or even if he did) I wouldn't care if I never made a cent from studding him out, thats not my priority, my priority is to have a dog to love and cherish.

I don't get it, there are plenty of breeders on this forum who aren't questioned, and here I am trying to do all that I can to better the breed (including considering an import) and you're all questioning my motives? I thought you knew me better than that, obviously I was wrong, I appologise for having too much faith in the human race!

And for those of you questioning how many dogs I have, I suggest you have a good look at yourself before judging other people!!! All my dogs get all the individual attention they could ever want, I'm not at work all day, I have plenty of money to afford nothing but the best for them, I have thousands of acres for them to run on, they get two walks a day + daily training, and I wouldn't even consider getting another dog if I couldn't handle it! So really, have a look at yourself, I may have three dogs already but they don't take up a great deal of space and are treated like royalty.

Whippets are not nearly as fragile as they look, he is still young and his bones haven't even hardend yet and he roughs and tumbles with Great Danes without a worry in the world, and if you look at the breed sizes Boxers are not a great deal larger than whippets are. I wouldn't get a Neopolitan Mastiff because I know they are too big to safely have with a Whippet and Papillons, but a Boxer is a different matter. I think a lot of you seem to be forgetting that I've owned a Boxer before, so I do know the breed.

[AllAmericanPUP]

breeders on here(reputable ones that is) aren't questioned because they don't say a dang thing about how they would like to make money.

It's simple. YOU DONT MAKE MONEY BREEDING.

I don't care if you put a couple million into showing a dog or whatever, making money should NOT be something on your mind when breeding.

[Aroura]

:roll: :roll: :roll:

Duh, I've already said like, ten times, that I don't expect to MAKE money :roll:

I give up, I'll do what ever I want to do, I know I'm doing the right thing so I don't have to explain myself to anyone else :roll:

[AllAmericanPUP]

[quote]Plus if he turns out as gorgeous as his dad[b] he is sure to make the money back in stud fees!!!! [/b][/quote]

[Aroura]

Honestly :roll:

I don't care if the breeders want co ownership, how many times do I have to say I don't care if I make any money from it? Or am I just talking to myself? :roll:

Kiwi, I have thought everything through, over and over again. Money is not a problem, by the end of next year Josh will be making more money than even the lecturers at university, if I had a part time job on top of that we would be swimming in money. I know kids are expensive, I know dogs are expensive, which is why I have waited this long to get another Boxer. By the time the pups are ready Diego will be 10 months old, he is 6 months old already and completely under my control when it comes to obedience etc, so it wont be like I'm trying to train two puppies at once. If Diego and the other pup don't get along, I will desex the other pup, Diego hasn't got an aggressive bone in him.

If a breeder was unsure about selling a pup to me I have plenty of references I have already offered with degree's in animal behavior, or vets, etc, who can put in a good word for me. They all know me personally, and know my situation, and can say with all certainty that I would make a great owner for a new pup.

[kendalyn]

[quote name='Aroura']Kendalyn, I'm curious as to why you are concerned that I am thinking about the possibility of studding him out before I even get him? [/quote]

I think this question was already answered for me by Kiwi and Newfiemom. I don't know much about showing or breeding, but they do. It sounds like they know an awful lot more about it than you as well. I think you would do well to listen to the voices of experience. Kiwi or Newfiemom would be great resources if you really want to learn how to do this the right way.

Aroura, you sound like someone who just wants to breed [i]something[/i]. You were talking about breeding Lillian before you got her. Now you want a Boxer to stud out and I expect you also want to breed Diego since you are showing him. It's not a good pattern.

[SizzleDog]

[quote] Diego hasn't got an aggressive bone in him. [/quote]

... has he ever been in a living situation with another intact male?

[gooeydog]

Do any of these breeders check hips, hearts, etc in their breeding stock? If not, I'd be looking elsewhere, as Boxers seem prone to a number of genetic disorders, and it stacks the odds in your favor by getting a dog out of health tested lines.

[Aroura]

Well isn't it true that everybody has to start somewhere? I'm not just running out and breeding dozens of dogs, no, I wouldn't do that because its not what I believe in. It seems like not one of you, except for mutts, has actually READ one of my posts, maybe skimmed over but missed the point completely. Yes, I enjoy showing, and yes, if my dogs get titles and a reputable breeder approaches me and their bitch has had all the tests etc, with the all clear from my dogs breeder, I would stud it out. I can't see how this could cause a PROBLEM, I mean, either they use one dog, or they'll find another. At least I have the morals to desex my dog if it doesn't turn out the best. Goo, the breeders do all the tests, I would not even consider buying from them otherwise. I know a network of boxer owners, lovers, and breeders, all around Australia, who have been helping me find a good (the best) breeders. Sizzle, I understand where you are coming from, which is why I would desex the Boxer at the first signs of aggression (or Diego if that happens, but from past behavior, and all the dogs in his lines, that is highly unlikely).

I'm sorry I even came here asking for oppinions, seeing as all I've got (on the most part) is a flaming. From now on I will stick to the oppinions of fellow Australians, who are willing to help and guide me, without judging me. People who understand that a lot of show dogs are used at stud at some point of their lives. People who ACTUALLY LISTEN to what I'm saying, without jumping to stupid, unreasonable conclusions. I feel I've wasted my time here, it would be better spent else where. :-?

[AllAmericanPUP]

so basically what you're saying is that our opinions are ignorant and what not because they dont agree with yours.

but your fellow boxer owner/breeders/showers what the heck ever have the same opinion as you so their opinions are great.

gotcha :wink:

[Aroura]

Great post Doberfanatic :D

A agree with everything that you said, about getting to know the breeder, using the breeder as a mentor, and never studding without their acceptance, wheather it is a co-ownership of not :wink:

The breeder who I am considering for my pup has great lines and a reputation to uphold! I would never consider putting my dog to a bitch without their approval, that would be just wrong. Even if that meant I showed my heart out for years, and the dog was never studded out, not once, I would still be happy :D

Diego does indeed have a very promising show career, he's from almost pure grand champion lines. I love showing him, which is why I want to get another show dog, rather than just a pet quality dog. The pride that comes with winning is fantastic, and as for not winning? Well I still have great pride, because I know I have the best dog there, and that he is coming home with the luckiest owner at the show, ribbon or no ribbon :wink:

Diego's breeders are also my friends. They have done so much for me, they're fantastic. I'm making them a DVD for christmas titled "Diego's first six months" with slide shows and videos of Diego's first six months, as well as Montie and Cassie and a special section in memoration to Lily. I think they're going to love it! The breeders who I am in contact with for the Boxer are also very friendly, they are 12 hours away so it would be hard for me to spend time with them, but we have emailed back and forth for a while now and they have been very helpful.

[quote]so basically what you're saying is that our opinions are ignorant and what not because they dont agree with yours.

but your fellow boxer owner/breeders/showers what the heck ever have the same opinion as you so their opinions are great[/quote]

Well, actually I'm saying that I don't enjoy spending time replying to judgmental people, who are only trying to make themselves feel good by preaching to others, not even taking any notice of their responses. I have said dozens of times that I DON'T CARE ABOUT THE MONEY, but for some reason you can't seem to get a grasp of that? I suggest you wake up to yourself, stop judging other people and get a life - stop trying to wreck havok with other peoples. Its not a matter of "oppinion", its a matter of common decency, you've no right to tell me I can't own/stud out a dog, unless I was doing anything wrong by the breed, or the individual dog, which I know I'm not. Don't you have better things to do? Quite obviously you don't, so let me guess, sticking your nose into other peoples buisiness is a bit of a hobby for you is it? Gotcha :wink:

[Aroura]

I just want to add, you must have some real problems if you have nothing better to do than stick your nose into other peoples buisiness when they are harmlessly going about their own life. I pity you.

You needent bother replying either, I'm leaving this forum now. I used to enjoy it here, but certain people have made it a place where I'd prefer not be a part of, I'll go about my life happily ever after, without self rightious snobs trying to stick their nose in where it isn't wanted to make themselves feel better about their sorry life.

Goodbye.

[StarFox]

Ok I usually don't get into the middle of things like this but I read every post and I have to comment.

Aroura I find your posts, especially your last two extremely rude. I am especially appalled by the way you have responded to Kiwi and Newfie. They did nothing but try and guide you in the right direction and give you valuable advice.

No one on this site was rude to you but legitimate questions were asked about comments you made about making money off your dog.

[quote]I don't get it, there are plenty of breeders on this forum who aren't questioned, and here I am trying to do all that I can to better the breed (including considering an import) and you're all questioning my motives?[/quote]

The breeders on this forum HAVE been questioned and have proven time and time again that they are responsible breeders.

Also you can back pedal all you want on the money issue but the fact is that you did state very clearly that you expected to get back the money that you spend on your dog by breeding.

[quote]PLUS - That will mean I can get him docked!!! Apparently it doesn't cost that much for importing from NZ, a girl at training was telling me today that her Danes breeder was importing from NZ and it was only $1000 for the importing, plus $500 aus for a good dog, so I'm thinking that a Boxer would be less? Plus if he turns out as gorgeous as his dad he is sure to make the money back in stud fees!!!! [/quote]

[quote]Well I wouldn't be buying a dog to make money, but if I went through the effort to get the best dog from the best lines and spend hundreds on going to shows etc to make some money from studding would be a nice reward. Of course I would only stud to approved bitches etc but I don't see any problem in studding out a good dog from good lines to improve the breed and getting money for it. [/quote]

Those are you direct quotes taken from page 2. I think that questions would be raised if any breeder on here thought that they could make some money by studding out there dog.

The thing that (almost) everyone is trying to tell you is that you will not make money studding your dog. I don't exactly think Kiwi and Newfi are rolling in the dough by breeding, do you? Breeding is about bettering the breed and it's a labor of love for those who do it. It's not about the money, you've been here long enough and should know that.

No one told you you can't stud your dog. People told you the reality and you didn't like it. No one on here has been a snob but you. You asked for opinions and were not happy with the answers and got indignant about it.

[quote]I used to enjoy it here, but certain people have made it a place where I'd prefer not be a part of[/quote]
Remember this forum is what YOU make of it.

[AllAmericanPUP]

[quote name='Aroura']I just want to add, you must have some real problems if you have nothing better to do than stick your nose into other peoples buisiness when they are harmlessly going about their own life. I pity you.

You needent bother replying either, I'm leaving this forum now. I used to enjoy it here, but certain people have made it a place where I'd prefer not be a part of, I'll go about my life happily ever after, without self rightious snobs trying to stick their nose in where it isn't wanted to make themselves feel better about their sorry life.

Goodbye.[/quote]

yea..i'm the one with problems..uh huh..sure. :lol:

[bk_blue]

Oh for God's sake, just pipe down.

Really, some people are getting a bit self-righteous and focussing on one thing that may have been said in the heat of the moment's excitement (which has also been retracted numerous times) rather than the bigger picture.

I am not taking sides in this but why is it that at least two longstanding members of this forum have actively decided to leave in the last six or so months? (The other one being HazelNutMeg.) I am concerned with the direction this forum is taking. :-?

I'm not really quite sure what I am trying to say, but this whole thread bothers me. The main argument is almost incidental to the underlying attitude of some members.

[__crazy_canine__]

BK, yes, people are leaving the forum when their feelings get hurt. Im one of them. Sure, I only took a break but I considered leaving and if any more drama pops up I might still consider it.

Please, you all to read through your posts first and make sure it cant be taken the wrong way...

All I have to say is everyone please dont jump in and lecture someone about somethig... it doesnt help. Its great you wat to help the situation and everything but your voice through the internet can be so misunderstood, its best to either leave it or find a better aproach.

Another thing is that, I know most of you dont mean to do it, but to the person being lectured, like Aruora, it can feel like your being ganged up on! I know, Ive been in the situation and thats why I perfectly feel where shes coming from.

Probably shouldnt have even posted but I really think you guys should consider some of the things I said.

[Guest Mutts4Me]

[quote name='bk_blue']Oh for God's sake, just pipe down.

Really, some people are getting a bit self-righteous and focussing on one thing that may have been said in the heat of the moment's excitement (which has also been retracted numerous times) rather than the bigger picture. [/quote]

That's all I was trying to say.

I wasn't trying to take sides here. As I said, I don't know anyone personally, so I don't feel right siding with someone.

I'm just appalled at how people can latch on to one thing and not let go. You keep on jumping back on "he is sure to make the money back in stud fees!!!! " But look at it in context! She's excited about the idea of getting a new puppy. Who wouldn't be. She's excited at the idea of being able to get a docked puppy (I'm not big on that, but that's her preference), but it will cost her extra money to get it imported. So she's saying (as bk said, "in the heat of the moment") that he may make that money "back" in stud fees.

To me, that's not the same as "he's gonna make me money in stud fees." It's a justification (to herself and her boyfriend) for sending the extra money to get a dog imported, instead of getting one in Australia.

Newfiemome, I'm not complaining about you questioning a member (Long term or not) about breeding, I was upset at people's unwillingness to give a long standing member the benefit of the doubt about something questionable she said. Instead of everyone latching on to a statement, why not a simple "did you mean...?" question, and at the answer of "No I did not," realize that something was worded poorly and drop it.

If you have concerns about breeding, fine. I know nothing about it. If you have concerns about the number of dogs/pets, fine. I know nothing about it. But please... it's getting very common on this forum, btw... read posts fully and try to view them openly instead of approaching them like you already know what's about to be said and only take out of it what you want.

I think it's sad that someone who's been here so long, and shared so much of herself, has found herself backed into a corner with a need to escape. Maybe her last couple posts weren't pleasant, but that's what happens when someone feels cornered. They fight back.

[imported_Kat]

Agreed.. I forgot about the one/two horses she was planning to get.

[abker17]

I'm not taking sides on this, but just wanted to say I'm sorry to see Aroura go. She's been here as long as I have, longer, that's well over a year I think. I hope I still see you on MSNM every once and awhile Aroura, and best of luck to you, in whatever you decide to do.