Aroura Posted October 27, 2004 Share Posted October 27, 2004 Can anyone here explain to me exactly what cow hocks are, what causes them, and if possible, post a photo for me? Diego has a hind leg that turns in ever so slightly, the breeders think he may just have a tendon that is slow to develop and a little weak, and it will be fine as he gets older, but I'd like to know for sure what it is. I'm hoping that what ever it is I can catch it while he's still young and fix it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MajiesMom Posted October 28, 2004 Share Posted October 28, 2004 Here's a little info on it [url]http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/bulletins_read/11934.html[/url] I've seen a website that has pictures of cow hocked dogs but I can't find any now. Here's a webpage that shows a cow hocked horse tho [url]http://www.gaitedhorses.net/ConformationLesson/RearEnds/RearEndConformation.html[/url] [img]http://www.gaitedhorses.net/ConformationLesson/RearEnds/Rear1.gif[/img] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aroura Posted October 28, 2004 Author Share Posted October 28, 2004 Thanks for the photo's Kiwi (your dogs are so cute! I want one!!!). And thanks for the link and photo Majie, the link was helpful. So am I right in beleiving then that he will probably grow out of it? Should I restrict his exercise? Or does a bit of exercise help? What is the cause? From what I can gather it is genetic, in which case the breeders probably know best when they say he should grow out of it. What causes them not to grow out of it like in the case of the pic kiwi posted? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seijun Posted October 28, 2004 Share Posted October 28, 2004 My Shilo has an extreme cow-hock, but I don't have any good pictures of it. ~Seij Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seijun Posted October 28, 2004 Share Posted October 28, 2004 [quote]I have been told and have read that it is a genetic problem,[/quote] I have been told this too, and I know that cow-hocking is not accepted in AKC standards, at least not the ones I have looked at but I am wondering, why is cow-hocking considered so "bad"? All wolves have cow-hocked legs, it is part of their natural build, and it aids in their movement. If it was not a benefit for them to have cow-hocked legs then natural selection would have bred it out of them by now. Does it have something to do with the length of a wolf's legs in comparison to that of dogs (wolves having the longer legs of the two, usually)? ~Seij Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
courtnek Posted October 28, 2004 Share Posted October 28, 2004 the reason, Seij, is that its not "pretty"...sorry to say, but a "duckfooted" dog does not meet AKC standards. the reason is obvious. they can run better, "corner" better, and stop "short" better with this footline. It gives them advantages (which is why wolves still have it) that the AKC considers "unacceptable". Its not PRETTY.... I went thru painful foot trials because I am duckfooted. not acceptable in humans. My feet were "straightened", and it causes me issues now. I hate the AKC standards. why do you suppose "DUCKS" are this way"? nature decided this was best. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aroura Posted October 28, 2004 Author Share Posted October 28, 2004 Ok Kiwi, if your offering... how will we arrange the travel? :wink: Well I've already talked to the breeders about it, they said he should grow out of it so I'm guessing that their line does grow out of it. You'd think so, every dog on his pedigree is either an Aus Grand Champion and/or a champion in at least three different countries, so I'm guessing if it were in the line that badly his relatives wouldn't have done so well in the ring! It does seem to be a little better now than when I first noticed it though, which is good - the breeders also told me how to stand him so its not obvious until it fixes itself. As for wovles having them, I guess hip displaysia would never have been "accidently" bred into wolves in the first place, natural selection wouldn't let it. Seeing as we don't have natural selection in pets thats why hip displaysia came about and thats why cow hocks aren't so good any more! Also, when asking why cow hocks aren't desirable you've got to remember that in this crazy world it IS desirable for some breeds to be so genetically WRONG that they can't even reproduce on their own, others that have legs so short they can hardly walk, some with faces so short they can hardly breed and others so big they rarely live past 8 or 9 years. Its a sad fact that this world only accepts things that don't function properly as "good" or "show" quality. Cow hocks may help wolves do this, that and the other, but lets face it, most breeds, cow hocks or not, wouldn't stand a chance in the wild even for a week. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seijun Posted October 28, 2004 Share Posted October 28, 2004 I always thought cow-hocking looked kinda pretty.. :( IMO it gives a dog a more "natural" look. ~Seij Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
imported_nea Posted October 28, 2004 Share Posted October 28, 2004 Webby had cow hocks when he was younger (found that out at his first show, when he was about 10 months old) but I think its gotten better these past few months (he is now almost 16 months..). I don't know how true it is, but I've heard that swimming and running in sand can help. Like I said, I don't know if theres any truth in that though.. :wink: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aroura Posted October 29, 2004 Author Share Posted October 29, 2004 Nea, hows Webster doing? It seems like only yesterday you were all excited about getting this puppy! How is he in the show ring? Do the judges notice much about the cow hocks? I can imagine swimming would help strengthen the muscle which would in turn straighten the leg, only, running in the sand to me sounds like it could do more harm than good. Any oppinions? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
courtnek Posted October 29, 2004 Share Posted October 29, 2004 [quote]Cow hocks aren't desirable because it shows a weakness in the hind quarter - the bones aren't correctly put together and subsequently affects movement.[/quote] How was it determined to be a "weakness"? Like Seij said, its natural in the wolf (and I believe Foxes also) to be cow-hocked. In fact it aids in their movements, rather than restricts them. I'm confused.... [quote]why do you suppose "DUCKS" are this way"? nature decided this was best. Possibly not the best argument, as we all know how fast ducks run or say I say waddle[/quote] :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: True. I was making reference to the term "duck footed"...actually, ducks feet are like that because it aids in their swimming ability. The feet fan out to the side on the water, kinda like a rudder on a boat, so allows them to turn faster. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Malamum Posted October 30, 2004 Share Posted October 30, 2004 [quote]running in the sand to me sounds like it could do more harm than good. Any oppinions?[/quote] I would assume that running on sand regularly would build up a good deal of muscle tone in the legs. With lets that are quite muscular there would be less strain on the bones and joints. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seijun Posted October 30, 2004 Share Posted October 30, 2004 Out of curiousity, is there a name for when the front feet are splayed outward (elbows angle in, causing front paws to point sideways and away from the body instead of strait forward)? My Shilo has that too, especially when she is nervous or upset-then she stands so that her front paws apear VERY splayed to the point that her "wrists" touch and her hind legs splay out so much that her "heels" touch. ~Seij Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aroura Posted October 30, 2004 Author Share Posted October 30, 2004 Thanks Malamum, I was thinking it might cause the legs to splay outwards, but you do have a point. Either way, I don't have any sand anyway! :lol: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Malamum Posted October 30, 2004 Share Posted October 30, 2004 LOL, I was going to add, it's not like you're near the beach anyway. :wink: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rotten_two Posted October 30, 2004 Share Posted October 30, 2004 ok i just found this post and i really must comment because aspen has some really severe cow hocks. i will illustrate with a picture of ms olympia -- gaia -- her hocks are great, hips tight she is a machine physically. then a pic of aspen who had a congenital growth plate abnormality. nothing we could have feed or supplemented would have prevented it -- really a result of his poor pedigree. basically his growth plates closed early so his bones started to angle and rotate. his front legs are very very slightly angled but his back end is the worst. normal [img]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v317/rotten_two/gaia_hock.jpg[/img] not so normal [img]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v317/rotten_two/asp_hock.jpg[/img] i can definitely say that in aspen this is a weakness. we try not to let him jump (we have a step up onto the bed and a ramp for the car) and we don't like him to run too fast. his muscles are very weak in his backend. he has been to more than 3 specialists who have all wanted to operate operate operate but he has some other health issues and doesn't tolerate anesthesia very well. so for now we have him on glucosamine and some other supps, chinese herbs and acupuncture. he does quite well -- he has never known any different! he plays and gets around fine (he just waddles -- which yes gives him character) we don't let him get too tired or he gets stiff. i don't think i have heard of cow hocks going away until this thread. certainly i don't expect aspen's legs to get better. i do hope aroura that diego "grows" out of it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ESSlover Posted October 30, 2004 Share Posted October 30, 2004 Awwwwwwww poor aspen!!!! Lol, nice shots :wink: :lol: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seijun Posted October 30, 2004 Share Posted October 30, 2004 That's weird how the cow hocks on your dog actually work in a negative way, Shilo has cow hocks like that but she's an absolute bull when it comes to pulling. I've actually considered turning her into a sled dog, but I think she is too old now to actually start learning. ~Seij Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarahstaff Posted October 30, 2004 Share Posted October 30, 2004 How old is she? Elmo was 6 when he started weight pull, and 7 when he started carting: [img]http://www.homestead.com/elmothesbt/files/elmocartinside.jpg[/img] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aroura Posted October 30, 2004 Author Share Posted October 30, 2004 Thanks Rotten, I hope you find a way to fix Aspens severe cow hocks without anesthetics. What age did it start showing like that? Did he get them at a certain age, or did he always have them? Best of luck to you both :wink: Sarahstaff, Elmo is an absolute darling :lol: :D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carolk9s Posted October 31, 2004 Share Posted October 31, 2004 I believe I've heard the term easty/westy front for dogs whose front feet turn out a bit. Might also be called toeing out, as opposed to toeing in for dogs who feet turn inwards towards each other. Candy toes out a bit in the front. I also believe, and may be wrong, that cow hocks not only look 'wrong' for standards, they also put additional strain on the leg bones including and up to the hips. A slight cow hock would probably be mininal strain on the rest of the leg but severe cow hocking could affect how the hips ride in their sockets as well. As far as cow hocks being a benefit to wolves, not so sure that is true. If they were a solitary predator, it could be quite a drawback over time if the angle was more than moderate. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seijun Posted October 31, 2004 Share Posted October 31, 2004 [quote name='Sarahstaff']How old is she? Elmo was 6 when he started weight pull, and 7 when he started carting: [/quote] She is about 5 or 6 years old. Unfortunately I just don't think she has the concentration level required to weight pull. Also, she didn't receive any training for anything until she was three. Pretty much any chance she had at a serious "job" was ruined by her first owners. [quote]As far as cow hocks being a benefit to wolves, not so sure that is true. If they were a solitary predator, it could be quite a drawback over time if the angle was more than moderate.[/quote] Wolves are not solitary though, although their cow hocking is quite often "more that moderate". ~Seij Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aroura Posted October 31, 2004 Author Share Posted October 31, 2004 [quote name='Seijun']She is about 5 or 6 years old. Unfortunately I just don't think she has the concentration level required to weight pull. Also, she didn't receive any training for anything until she was three. Pretty much any chance she had at a serious "job" was ruined by her first owners.[/quote] There might be hope yet. I got Montie when he was 14 months old, he had grown up as one of 20 dogs, free to run around on a farm in their own little "pack". When I brought him home he showed no loyalty to anyone, he'd never had the chance to attach to and be trained by one person. The first couple of months I thought he'd never do any good at obedience or agility, as soon as he was let off the lead he'd just wander off, ignoring my calls for him to come back. Then one day he had a turn around, now I run him through agility and after he's done he does not leave my side, litterally, he sticks like 2cm from my left foot! At obedience he is the most clever dog there, everybody wants a Montie. Thats not just me being biased, people will only usually believe me once they see with their own eyes how quickly he catches on to things! So don't dwell on her past owners un willingness to train her, take it into your own hands to see how far you can go, you'd be amazed what most dogs would do for a bit of roast chicken :wink: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carolk9s Posted October 31, 2004 Share Posted October 31, 2004 [quote name='Seijun'] Wolves are not solitary though, although their cow hocking is quite often "more that moderate". ~Seij[/quote] That is my point. What is the average life span of a wolf in the wild? The wolf's body and complete bone structure may well have adapted to being cow hocked plus the fact that the average wolf has FAR better muscle due to their life of running down prey than the vast majority of dogs. The additional muscle structure supports their bones and ligaments even if the structure is less than ideal. I do believe that a wolf with severe cow hocks is at a distinct disadvantage in running down prey, when they are young, the muscle can compensate, as they age, it's going to become more of an issue. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DogPaddle Posted October 31, 2004 Share Posted October 31, 2004 Isn't being slightly to moderately cow-hocked desirable for working herding breeds, something about maneuverability. Maybe Kat would know. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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