Naturally short tails / stand-up ears vs. cropped / docked

[Guest Anonymous]

[quote name='Horsefeathers!']I'm pretty sure I was generally addressing the issue of docking for asthetics.

Still, our clinic handles a lot of different plantations' hunting dogs and we very seldom ever see the injured tails that others are apparently seeing elsewhere since it's almost a "certainty." Maybe dogs in this area are just lucky. In fact, we've seen far more ear hematomas than anything else in these plantation dogs, but I don't see a rush to cut off the ears of these dogs.

Again, for clarification, my post was meant in a [u]general[/u] sense and addressed docking for asthetic purposes... because it looks "good." I know that many people who dock their dogs have hunting/working breeds that don't actually hunt or perform any function at all other than companion. They just like the way it looks, but I very often still hear that lame excuse of what [u]could[/u] happen if they didn't do it. To each's own. I just wish more people had the balls to just say they like the way it looks than go about the whole long drawn out excuse of what [u]might[/u] happen otherwise... especially in companion dogs.

Something else I don't understand is how it is that other countries are successfully working their dogs with tails, ears and all while we must "protect" our dogs by cutting off their tails and ears. I wonder who has the overall greater welfare of their dogs at heart.

Hey, I'm just throwing out food for thought. I'm not as militant about it as a lot of people. I just know I wouldn't do it to my own.[/quote]

I feel like you were reading my mind and typed my thoughts. I couldn't have said it better. Also, Seijun, I am pretty sure that [u]any dog[/u] that runs into a barbed wire fence at full speed is going to be hurt very badly, whether it has cropped ears, natural ears, docked tail or natural tail.

[Seijun]

[quote]Still, our clinic handles a lot of different plantations' hunting dogs and we very seldom ever see the injured tails that others are apparently seeing elsewhere since it's almost a "certainty." Maybe dogs in this area are just lucky. In fact, we've seen far more ear hematomas than anything else in these plantation dogs, but I don't see a rush to cut off the ears of these dogs.[/quote]

Most of the people I know of never take their dogs to the vet when they suffer an injury. Most injuries are relatively small and can be treated using basic medicine and doctoring practices, but that does not mean the injury does not cause pain for the dog or that it heals quickly. The injuries my dogs suffered, the cut on the ear and chest, were small and did not look that bad, but they wouldn't quite bleeding. It was several weeks before they healed. They broke open every time the dog ran or shook its head. I don't think even "professional" doctoring would have changed that.

[quote]Something else I don't understand is how it is that other countries are successfully working their dogs with tails, ears and all while we must "protect" our dogs by cutting off their tails and ears.[/quote]

Other countries most likely banned such practices because it was done more for visual appeal than for the dogs' welfare. Also, I don't know what the land lay-out is over there. In my area, the brush and briars are VERY thick, some people I know even go as far as to carry machetes(sp?) to get through it all. There are also barbed wire fences everywhere hidden in the brush and weeds. Oh, and I didn't say "ran INTO" a barbed fence, I said "ran THROUGH" a barbed fence. Barbed fences are a common obstacle here. The dog's body usualy clears the fence but the tail stands above the level of the back and could easily get scratched or torn on a wire above it. It could be that in other countries the land is not so much like this and that the dogs' risk of suffering injury is not at great. I don't know, I've never been there.

~Seij

[imported_Matty]

[quote]Anyone who hunts with a bird dogs knows how high their risk of injury is. Briars, barbed fences, etc can all injure a dog that is running at top speed through them. In a home setting there is of course the slight risk of injury to a tail, but it isn't NEAR as high as a dog in the field. A working bird dog is almost guaranteed to suffer injury at some point while working. Tail and ear injuries are the most frequent. My dogs have nearly bled to death before because of simple ear cuts or a small cut on the chest from a fenceI[/quote]
I was just wundering, are Golden's and Lab's not used for bird hunting???? :o
I know of a few people in my area who bred and hunt working bird dogs in the feild. They have good hunting Goldens and Lab's and I have not once seen a docked tail nor an injury from one of those dogs. And believe me these dogs go bird hunting often (during bird season of course :lol: ). There are also alot of bird hunters (real manly types :lol: ) who hunt their Goldens and Labs in real bird hunting trips and they never have any problems with injury. The only problem I have heard from the Golden owners are the darn burdocks which get tangled in the long coat. Now that is a pain and a trip to the groomer.

Sejun, I know that these people hunt their dogs and they do not have torn ears or broken tails. I imagine they are careful that their are no barbed wire fences where they are hunting. I guess it just depends on the area :-? but any how, these men have been hunting for many years (over 40 for some of them) and not one of them has had a horrible injury happen to their dogs.

One thing I have noticed in my area any ways, that Rotties with docked tails are avoided by people. The ones left with their tails are approached by people in a relaxed manner. People don't seem to associate the long tailed Rotties as being aggressive, or even being Rotties for that matter :lol:
In my experience most dog to human aggression situations result from a learned behavior. Basically every time a human avoids a dog it makes the dog just a little bit more dominant in the manner that it has caused some fear in the person.
I have noticed that dogs with their tails can show how they are feeling much better and easier than dogs with their tails docked. A friend of mine also mentioned that with her Rottie with docked tail seems to provoke more aggressiveness from other dogs than her Rottie with the whole tail.

So for myself, I don't think it is nessessary to have a dogs tail or ears done even for feild work I don't think its nessessary. IMO I think its all just a "looks" thing which makes the owner look distinctive. A Rottie, Dobie, Boxer looks distinctive with their tails docks. Without them done they look just look like any other dog and many people dont recognize them. So for me personally I think its all just a status symbol to have the tail and ears done.

[AllAmericanPUP]

The biggest thing I find "funny" is that English pointers taisl are NOT docked, yet just about every other bird dog is???????

I know of a couple boxers who have tails and they have never had a problem or injury.

[ObedienceGrrl]

Please correct me if I'm wrong.....

But aren't Old English Sheepdogs born as bobtails?

[Seijun]

[quote]I was just wundering, are Golden's and Lab's not used for bird hunting???? [/quote]

I think they are used more for retrieving. Mine are pointers and they run almost non-stop. From what I understand labs will not do this. The pointers I have will run at top speed non-stop unless they are commanded to stay or they go on point. That is why they can get hurt so easy in the thick brush that grows up around here. Imagine running naked through thick weeds and briars at near or at top speed for ten minutes strait or more. These dogs don't seem to feel pain either (although I know they must sometimes). Once one of our pointers ran off and she ran until her paws were split and bleeding. Pointers were born and bred to run, there isn't much that will make them stop either.

~Seij

[AllAmericanPUP]

Most australian shepherds are born with docked tails.

this is off of an old english sheepdog info thing
[b]This breed is either born tailless (as the name Bobtail implies) or the tail is completely amputated.[/b]

[Smooshie]

[quote name='Horsefeathers!'] I would like to see the American breed standards change to accept natural dogs so that at least people can see them in the big shows and get accustomed to that "new" look.[/quote]

I just heard yesterday that The new boxer standard and Code of Ethics has passed by vote of the American Boxer Club membership.

The website will post the new revision as soon as the formalities are seen to, but the gist of the main changes are:

1) white boxers may be sold as pets on limited registration (with a contract)

and

2) [b]a description of the natural ear will be included[/b] :B-fly:

Hopefully this is a step in the right direction and we'll soon be seeing more uncropped Boxers being recognized in the show ring here in the U.S.!

Then maybe other typically cropped breeds will follow suit...

[__crazy_canine__]

Ok, I mean I know its fine to express your feelings about cropping/docking but thats not what the thread was supposed to be about...

Its about people like me who want to know more about what breeds naturally have bob-tails or stand-up ears (or if not, then told its docked/cropped).

Im learning a lot already...
like Old English Sheepdogs and Aussies, I dont know that they could be born with or without a tail.
So does anyone know the chances of a dog being born with a bobtail? Like with both parents having been born with a bobtail, is there still a chance some of the pups could have a tail? What if only one parent has a bobtail? Im guessing at least one of the parents would have to have a bobtail because Im assuming that trait is resessive.... am I wrong?

[Guest Mutts4Me]

CC - here's a study you might look at . . .

[url]http://www.dnaco.net/~imgnr/nbt_study.htm[/url]

[__crazy_canine__]

Wow, Mutts that really interesting! Thanks for that!

They even have a link for Catahoulas and Boxers!

[__crazy_canine__]

[quote]The bobtail trait is inherited as a dominant gene. Only one bobtail parent is required in order for bobtail pups to be whelped. On average 30 – 50% of the pups in the litter will have a bobtail.[/quote]

Guess I was wrong! :oops: :lol:

This may only apply to Catahoulas but Im not sure... :-?

[courtnek]

I have two hunting dogs. A lab/pointer mix, and a foxhound. Neither have docked tails. You should NEVER dock a lab, while they are retrievers, they do water retrieval, and that strong, kill-you-with-its-wag tail is used as a rudder in the water. Labs originally brought fishing nets to shore, and that tail was an absolute necessity. In their original form they had webbed feet as well. There is also a purpose to the goldens tail. Labs have an oily undercoat, and very short hair. that second oily undercoat kept them warm
in the frigid waters of Newfoundland. Kept them dry too. The water would stay on top, and not soak into the fur. It's not quite that cold in England, where the Golden was bred. Still the dog spends a lot of time in the water
doing retrieval. The golden coat, and the tail, were both "sight signs".
The hunter could see the dog easily because his coat contrasted so sharply with the surroundings, something hard to do with a black Lab. The tail also serves as a "flag" - held up high and easy to see in the brush.
If you ever watch a Golden work, the dog will get low down in the brush, but the tail will be held up. The coat is a nightmare in briar country, everything sticks to it and the fur wraps around it. But it keeps the dog warm. Now my foxhound has a tail very similar to the lab. Hard, no excess fur, and it can cause bruising when she beats it against your legs cuz she's happy to see you. They arent water dogs, like labs, but I can see where her tail could also serve as a rudder in the water. It's the same basic tail a Lab has. so after all that ramble, not all hunting dogs have, or should have, docked tails. There is a purpose for them the way they are.

Labs and pointers and Foxhounds and setters also have floppy ears to protect them from the brush. The last thing you'd want is to get those above mentioned briars stuck in an ear. The ear also serves, especially in bloodhounds, to "funnel" the scent to the nose. I cant think of a scenthound with natural cropped ears. Greyhounds are sighthounds.
I think they're cute with their long ears, personally.

[Smooshie]

As far as Bobtail Boxers go, Dr Cattanach I believe introduced Corgi blood into the Boxer bloodline in order to get the bobtail trait in his Boxers...I remember reading about it a long time ago. The Boxer link on the site Amber posted doesn't work though so I'm not exactly sure I have my facts straight on that one....interesting idea though...

[__crazy_canine__]

[quote name='Smooshie']As far as Bobtail Boxers go, Dr Cattanach I believe introduced Corgi blood into the Boxer bloodline in order to get the bobtail trait in his Boxers...I remember reading about it a long time ago. The Boxer link on the site Amber posted doesn't work though so I'm not exactly sure I have my facts straight on that one....interesting idea though...[/quote]

Corgis look NOTHING like Boxers so Im guessing it took many MANY years to achieve that! :o

I mean you breed a corgi and a boxer, you breed the dogs from that litter with a bobtail with another boxer and them you just keep on breeding only the bobtails, right? I mean you would have to do that a lot to get the boxer to look standard since the corgis body type is so much different.

Yeah, I definately dont agree to that experiment if youre correct Smooshie. Its interesting, sure, but do we really need to experiment on this adding more and more dogs into the world? :roll:

[Guest Mutts4Me]

Info about the Dr.'s Corgi outcrossing:

[url]http://www.bconnex.net/~langevin/Gene_Study/gene_study.html[/url]

And the Dr.'s own Bobtailed Boxers:

[url]http://www.steynmere.com/BOBTAILS.html[/url]

[__crazy_canine__]

Okay Im lost! How are these dogs being registered as purebreds if they have corgi blood in them???

[bk_blue]

[quote name='Mutts4Me']Around here, most ACDs have short tails. I don't think I've seen one with a full tail before. I did look at pictures when I read your post, and I think they look lovely with tails (of course, I'm very much against cropping and docking anyway)!

I thought they were sometimes born without tails because I'd read that when the ACD was imported into the US, they got some stumpy-tailed cattle dogs mixed in, and the Americans didn't realize they were different, so they interbred them, getting mixed litters. That may not be true, or perhaps that's been bred out of them, I don't know.
[/quote]

Awww I know, they're gorgeous (but I am biased) :D
I don't know what the situation is with the ACD in the US, but the traditional heeler, in Australia anyway, has a full tail. :) It's meant to be low-set and should hang in a curve to the hock. They're not excessivly long tails; rather they are thick and bushy.

Anyway, to state in general, I am not a fan of cropping and docking. Thankfully both have been banned in my state (the docking I think was banned either last year or this year, to much uproar :roll:)

[Horsefeathers!]

Seijun, I'm finding your posts to be contradictory and confusing. If you like the docking, fine. I'm just not understanding how the dogs are getting minor injuries that don't require vet care yet are bleeding nearly to death. I certainly don't mean to sound argumentative, but your posts are, IMO, typical of the lame excuses I hear over and over which is that the dog *might* get hurt. From what you're saying, and part of what confuses me, your dogs are getting hurt, anyway, regardless of their tails being cut off. How many of these hunting dogs get split pads? Still, I never hear a push to cut off their feet, or make them work in boots. Again, many times they get hematomas on their ears from injuries, yet we aren't cutting those off. If docking suits you, fine. I'm not trying to change your mind. I'm only saying why *I* think it's pointless as a routine procedure, [u]especially on [b]companion[/b] dogs[/u] of these particular breeds when people do it because they think it looks "right."

I can't think of how many times one of my dogs has split a pad and it looks like it would sure have to hurt, but it has never crossed my mind to cut off their feet to prevent such injuries from occurring.

When it comes to basic first aid, I'm sure the plantation folk around here are capable, but they spare no expense when actual vet care is needed such as in the case of the rather regular hematomas we see. From what I understand, these dogs are very expensive investments, so these people don't diddle when it comes to their health.

Anyone from some of the nations where cropping and docking are outlawed want to come forward and share some input on the type of terrain you have and how the dogs get along? Is it smooth ground, or are your dogs working in briars, brush and such? I always thought they had some pretty thick woods overseas, too.

[imported_Matty]

[b]Horsefeathers wrote[/b]
[quote]How many of these hunting dogs get split pads? Still, I never hear a push to cut off their feet, or make them work in boots.[/quote]
I almost peed myself laughing :lol: :lol: :lol:

As for bleeding to death, one of my huskies cut his pad the other week and I thought he was going to bleed to death :o The vet assured me it was quite normal for the pad to bleed like that. :niewiem:

[Seijun]

When my dogs were injured the wounds were small but they had hit some blood vessles and the dog was bleeding quite badly. I was very afraid that the dog would bleed to death because the gums had begun to pale. I did not take them to the vet because the wounds were small enough that they couldn't have put stiches in. There was nothing I didn't have or do to fix the woulds that a vet wouldn't have had or done. My mom was there both times and she used to work as a vet. We used just about every bandage and medicine we could think of. We eventually superglued the wounds (I know, that sounds wierd, but it worked). They have had other minor injuries before, none life threatening. I was using their more serious injuries to show that working in a field setting can be dangerous. Most injuries a dog suffers on the field aren't that serious but are still painful. A hurt tail would not be life-threatening, but it would still be painful because it would take a long time to heal even with vet care. As far as split pads, I was only using that example to prove that yes, these dogs will run for near forever if you let them. A split pad would not be a common injury on the field unless you ran the dogs for several hours strait (which you shouldn't do). When my dog had split her pads she had escaped and had been running almost nonstop for 3 or 4 hours on frozen ground before she came back home. Sorry if my posts were confusing, they tend to blend together a lot. I wasn't trying to say that every dog that does field work will get life-threatening injuries or that they SHOULDN"T be taken to the vet.. To clear things up, no, life-threatening injuries are not common. Minor injuries are. A minor injury on the tail or ear (the most common places for injury) can be painful and take a long time to heal because of its location, not because the injury itself is serious. A dog with a serious injury should be taken to the vet. Mine were not because it was agreed among the family that there was really nothing the vet could do. Docking a tail prevents minor tail injuries later in life that would be painful, though not life threatening. The dogs suffer such minor injuries because of the terrain they work on and because of their tendancy to run non-stop through it (hence my example with the dogs running until their pads were split and bleeding).

~Seij

[Horsefeathers!]

[quote name='Seijun']We eventually superglued the wounds (I know, that sounds wierd, but it worked). [/quote]

Nothing weird about that at all. It's a big part of our first aid kit as well. :D

Seij, I didn't know your mom was a vet. That would make a difference in field care indeed.

[Seijun]

I had always thought super glue was a weird way to fix a wound, but when I ws little we used it to save a pigeon's life. One of the pigeons, a chick, had been hit by a hawk and the skin on his neck and head had been torn loose. My mom superglued the skin back on and the bird actually lived and grew up just fine like nothing had happened.

~Seij

[courtnek]

super glue is good as emergency first aid. It "seals". literally, and stops blood flow. in a bad pad accident, super glue could be the difference between an emergency vet visit, and major blood loss. I used it once on my Golden when I had cut his qwik while trimming his nails. I stopped the flow with flour, but then put super glue on it till I could get him to the vet next day. She laughed and said he needed no additional help....

[Smooshie]

[quote name='__crazy_canine__'][Yeah, I definately dont agree to that experiment if youre correct Smooshie. Its interesting, sure, but do we really need to experiment on this adding more and more dogs into the world? :roll:[/quote]

Absolutely not...I guess I could have clarified better. From a [i]scientific [/i]point of view (I love genetics) the thought of being able to manipulate a physical trait so easily is interesting to me. From an [i]ethics [/i]standpoint, I see no need to create more mutts (and I use that term affectionately) in the process.

Make better sense now? :wink: