What to do?

[Horsefeathers!]

Someone's gotta tell me what to do about Pauly. This is so hard to explain, but I'll try.

Pauly is the second Standard Poodle rescue I got... about 4 months ago. He has done so well fitting in here, but he has always been afraid of my husband. He gets along well with him most of the time unless my husband tries to approach him when he doesn't want to be approached, like trying to get him to go outside. Most of the time, Pauly will slink away from my husband, or run from him, but he's becoming increasingly agitated. He has begun standing his ground and snarling and raising his lip. It's weird... Pauly doesn't have territorial issues. He isn't territorial in the car, in the yard, or in the house. There's just something about my husband and men in general that he doesn't like. It's not ALL men... just SOME men (he's been giving fits to one of our vet techs, too).

I don't know what to do. Pauly will do anything for me and is the best mannered, socialized dog there is. I can go anywhere with him. We aren't sure how to handle this. Since the problem is that Pauly seems to be reacting from fear, does my husband need to coddle Pauly more, or put the smackdown (figuratively... not literally) on him? We are doing basic Pauly boot camp. Everything good is coming from my husband. All food, snacks, anything. Also, my husband is spending more and more one on one time with him. It's still not helping. He seems to adore my husband SOMETIMES until my husband approaches him at a time he doesn't want to be approached. I don't know if this means anything, but Pauly also gets extremely upset and agitated when my husband is playing with Perry (the first Standard). It's like he thinks my husband is a threat. He has never done anything to make Pauly afraid of him and we don't know how to make him more comfortable. Since it's not blatant aggression, or territorial issues, I don't know how to "demote" him. He doesn't challenge when you take things from him, he's not into butting heads.

What to do? Last night, it looked as if Pauly might seriously try to bite my husband. He stood his ground and he looked like he meant it, lip curled, snarling, hackles raised. Admittedly, my husband was startled which probably only made it worse. We don't know whether to be really really stern and tell him to knock it off, or to try harder to make him more comfortable (which makes me wonder if that wouldn't be rewarding the snarling and lip raising).

[u]Good[/u] trainers in my area are in short supply (they all seem to favor the "whack 'em, smack 'em, put a prong collar and yank 'em around and show 'em who's boss" methods of training which I don't really want to do to a dog who's already afraid) and besides, Pauly's obedience is fine. He is easily trainable. The behaviorist I was working with on Penny has since moved on, so I'm kind of on my own.

I've fired off an email to the rescue contact he came from to see if she can shed some light or tell me what I need to do. I don't want Pauly and my husband to be afraid of each other and I don't know anything about Pauly's past as far as what could make him behave the way he does. Help? :(

[Duke_3]

hhmmmm...........pauly might be afriad of your husband becuase he feels domanited,.

Ive seen that lots....But other than that...MAbey he just favors you:D

I don't know what to tell you becuased pauly might feel like your husbands too manly. Mabey the house he was previously in , he was hit by the man of the house? It could be the problem..
Sorry if im not help!

[gooeydog]

I don't know if this is an option for you, but maybe try having your husband feed him by hand, and making Pauly work for every bit of his food, etc? Ie: rather than making him sit, then giving him his bowl of food, take his daily kibble rations, divide them up into "training sessions", and dole them out during short training sessions as rewards. He would also keep some on hand at all times, and spontaneously give commands and dole out the goodies during non-training sessions. That way, Pauly's FORCED to rely on your husband for his sustenance (though, of course, you wouldn't let him wither away to nothing either :lol: ), and as such, will most likely be pushed into a better, more respectful relationship with him. This will also help to decrease the chances of confrontation, because the Pauly's obedience will probably improve a bit when he realizes that if he blows you off, he doesn't eat, so it's more likely that he'll do a down/stay if you tell him to when you notice him getting a bit huffy.

Another guess at why he's being pushy with your husband playing with Perry, is that maybe he thinks Perry is sort of "his"? I know you said you take a bunch of them along a lot when you go someplace, so maybe from being together so much, they've sort of taken up a deeper bond than you think, and Pauly thinks he should decide who should play with his buddy and when.

Have the "episodes" had any particular pattern to them? If you can't think of any, maybe try keeping a record of everytime he acts like a wierdo (no offense intended), that way you can look back and try to find something if you get any ideas.

Also, remember that just because he doesn't butt heads with you on taking things, getting off furniture, etc, doesn't mean that he truly respects you (your husband in this case, I guess). Sometimes a dominant dog will allow a person to do just about anything, take things, manipulate them, etc, because they really don't care about it... but if they try and do something the dog DOES find offensive, they'll know right away. To give an example, Goo will get off the couch if one of the other dogs hops up there, back away from her food bowl if they get into it (which isn't allowed, but has happened on a few occasions), drop treats when they hover around, won't even retaliate if they snip at her for something, etc, but when they do something that offends her (humping her, stealing one of HER (most toys she couldn't care less about, but there are a few that she treasures) toys, stepping on her while she's asleep, etc), they know it immediately, and won't do it again anytime soon. To some people who have never seen her correct the other dogs, she would appear submissive, lower ranked, etc, BUT she's actually just laid back and doesn't get worked up over most things, so they rarely push the right buttons for her to correct them. It could be that Pauly does think he's "bigger" than your husband, but doesn't care enough about most things to "correct" him over them.

Again, this is all just speculation, so take what you like, and leave the rest :lol:

[Horsefeathers!]

Goo, a lot of that really does make good sense. :)

I like the idea of my husband keeping treats on him at all times and the idea of feeding him just a bit at a time, making him "work" for it. However, I'm still having a hard time wrapping my brain around the idea of Pauly being a dominant personality. I could be wrong (wouldn't be the first time), but Pauly seems genuinely afraid of my husband, like he's trying to make him back off rather than challenge him. Until now, he would mostly try to avoid any confrontation with him. Now it's like he's standing his ground (I guess maybe he is actually TRYING to become dominant? My mind is imploding, trying to rationalize any of this behavior). A lot of times, Pauly will "rush" at my husband from behind as he (husband) turns to walk away, but won't do it when facing him. We don't know if my husband should turn back to confront him and make him back down, or ignore him. :-?

I got an email back from my rescue contact and she did say that she has recently discovered some information that suggests some of these dogs have a reason to fear men. Apparently, it's not just Pauly. That helps knowing that, but it's still going to be a bugger figuring out how to handle it (firmness tempered with compassion).

Thanks for the insight. A lot of that really does make sense. I hadn't even considered that Pauly would think of Perry as his own, but it makes perfect sense. The two are together (with me) 24/7. I did know that Pauly is extremely possessive of me (Perry a bit, also), but I have conscientiously been working on not tolerating that behavior (freaking out when hubby and I play fight, or tussle). Also, we'll try the advice of doling out Pauly's meals into training sessions.

Goo, you da bomb!

[gooeydog]

I completely missed the part where you said he was hackled up, etc when I made the first post. Given that (sounds like he was on the defensive), and your last post, he very well could be afraid at times. The feeding thing should help in this as well, as food is a pretty good motivator (becomes an even better one when it isn't readily available :lol: ), and should help him work through his fears (if that's what it is), as well as boosting his confidence through more obedience work. I'd also work on getting one simple command (sit or down are good ones) really solid, so that he'll do it anytime, anywhere, and use that for when he starts to act a bit off, as if he's doing this out of fear, having something to do that he KNOWS will help him feel more secure. If he's acting strange usually when your husband goes to get him from somewhere, work on his recall, so that rather than husband invading his space, he has to come to him when called.

[quote]A lot of times, Pauly will "rush" at my husband from behind as he (husband) turns to walk away, but won't do it when facing him. We don't know if my husband should turn back to confront him and make him back down, or ignore him.[/quote]
I read an article once on why dogs often bite mail carriers, delivery people, etc, where they described it like this: mailperson walks up, dog starts barking as they approach, mailperson turns and walks away (havign put mail in box), as dog continues barking as mailperson leaves. The theory was that the dog builds on experience after experience, learning that when he barks and carries on, the "threat" leaves. Then, when one day, the carrying on doesn't work immediately, the dog ups the level of aggression (biting, etc) , in order to drive the threat away. What you describe sounds similar (and my mom's Chi does it as well sometimes, even to people he knows, it IS a defensive reaction), and I would imagine it could escalate in the same way. When he gets like that, I'd turn calmly, wait for him to settle, put him in a sit, praise/treat, then release him and try again. Aggressing back (not saying you would, but just in general) or correcting would probably throw him even more into defensive mode; ignoring him and walking away would teach him that the charging worked to get rid of you, etc. Hopefully if he is continually taught that charging gets him nowhere, he'll stop, and the sit gives him an alternative to the bad behavior (though a better alternative might be a sit, then a heel, as you have to release him from the sit when you leave, giving him a chance to charge again, whereas heeling will keep him with you, under your control).

Again, this is what's worked for me and ours, so no guarantees that it'll work for every situation :lol:

[Horsefeathers!]

Thanks, goo. You've offered some excellent insight and I am very optimistic. We are going to just keep plugging away until hopefully Pauly decides hubby doesn't remind him of whoever it is he doesn't like. Apparently, several of the dogs that came from the kennel Pauly came from are suffering with similar issues (I just learned this last night). At least it helps knowing that it may be something we can help. I am a bit overreactive and worried since the problems we dealt with with our Penny who couldn't be helped.

Thanks again!

[Horsefeathers!]

One other thing? Hubby just mentioned to me that he NEVER has a problem with Pauly when they are alone (minus me). He said Pauly is perfectly compliant whenever I'm not around. Apparently, I'm somehow the problem. Pauly never, ever, ever has shown any discomfort around me and I've never done anything (knowingly) to encourage his episodes toward my husband. I've never laughed it off as cute, or thought it was funny that Pauly seemed so possessive of me.

Now I need to know what [u]I[/u] need to do differently. We are already letting hubby handle feeding/training. Do I need to verbally "defend" my husband when Pauly acts out? Do you think my loud disapproval would help Pauly stop challenging him, or do I just butt out? :-?

[Guest Anonymous]

We adopted Gusto about 4 years ago when he was about 2. We didn't have any info on his background. Gusto, an airedale, loved my husband from day one, he would follow him around all day. However, at night, once my husband went up stairs to bed, Gusto would not let him back down. Sadly, we only have one downstairs bathroom. So, if hubby wanted to come down, Gus would actually go after him in a very aggressive manner. We tried hubby coming down with treats in hand. Didn't work. If hubby yelled at him, he became more aggressive.
I did a lot of research on the internet and everyone advised against confrontation. So, if hubby had to come down, I would put the leash on Gusto and put him in my computer room with me. After a short time and soon as Gusto heard my hubby get up to come down, Gus would just walk into the computer room by himself and still does. So, I guess they have reached a compromise.
We also had my hubby doing all the feeding and snacks. One other odd thing, the same as you, they have no problem if I'm not here. I go out of town once in a while. While I'm gone, no problem. Gusto doesn't even seem to notice me while I'm home.

[Horsefeathers!]

Well, it just got oooooooogly. Despite the treats and feeding and sitting/staying and efforts, Pauly just bit the crap out of my husband when he tried to slip a leash on him. Blood everywhere, it was a pretty nasty bite. :(

[gooeydog]

Sheesh :( Sorry to hear that HF.

[Horsefeathers!]

Oh well... we'll just keep trying until we find something that works. Hubby diving on Pauly's head and flipping him over seems to have worked wonders for that attitude... at least for tonight. Dunno about longterm, though. We were certainly trying to avoid strongarm tactics, but biting is NOT ok. Fear, we'll try to deal with. When it came to actually drawing blood, all bets were off and this boy is going to get a good lesson in how NOT to behave. This dog is going to undergo some rigorous boot camp. I can put up with a lot... tear up my windows, chew up my plants, dig up my flowers, bark bark bark bark at every squirrel that passes the front window, but I will not tolerate biting. Whatever it takes.

[Guest Anonymous]

I should have mentioned that Gusto bit my husband two times. I didn't want to scare you. The first time was at night of course. Hubby was just walking past Gusto and Gusto bit him on the foot. We had Gusto about 6 months when this happened. Hubby was of course furious and just put Gus outside. We left him out for a few hours. (It was summer). We wouldn't look at Gus or speak to him for hours. When we let him back in, Gus tried very hard to apologize but we just ignored him. Through research we read that ignoring a dog is the worst punishment.
Gusto bit hubby one more time, but a nip. Hubby was reaching for something and Gusto thought he was after his bone. Not a bad bite at all but the same treatment. Out the door. Total banishment. We wouldn't speak to him or in any way acknowledge him. Both bites were in the first year. We have had no problems with Gusto since.
Don't give up on Pauly.

[Horsefeathers!]

Thanks for the encouragement. We aren't giving up. It would be different if we didn't see consistency or hope. Pauly is very outgoing and very well mannered in public and, until recently, usually at home. He's not typically snappy and shy. There's just something about my husband and some other men. According to the rescue lady, she recently learned of some information which suggests that Pauly (and others who came from that kennel) have a reason to fear men. That gives us hope just having something to work with. We both love him to pieces because he is USUALLY the most fun, outgoing, clownish dog there ever was.

However, ignoring his displays have only made them worse. It started with that lunging from behind and we just kind of brushed it off. Actually, we used to think he was playing until he started the lip curling and growling. Apparently, we "approved" of his behavior because we didn't stop it.

I don't think hope is lost. This is not going to earn me any popularity points (then again, apparently not many people are visiting this thread... it admittedly p*sses me off to see others on other parts of this forum arguing their qualifications of how much they know about handling aggressive dogs, but don't bother to come here and offer any insight), but we are handling Pauly in a more ummm proactive sort of way. I've begun LOUDLY and VEHEMENTLY expressing my disapproval at Pauly's behavior toward my husband (since Pauly is soooooo mine, he hates me to be upset with him) and "defending" my husband "against" Pauly. Hubby is still making Pauly earn every single morsel of food or treats he gets. However, flipping that bugger on his back and pinning him down has seemed to work the best. Pauly sulked all last night, but is now following my husband everywhere and is actually trying to figure out how to "please" him. He's coming to him when called, he's sitting when told and he's looking toward my husband to see what he wants. Who knew? Apparently, we weren't beating him right (ok, figuratively speaking... kind of).

I'm sure it's not over, but Pauly is learning quickly that life will go much better for him if he keeps his teeth in his head and out of my husband's skin.

[midori115]

I've been reading it, HF. I, being humble first time puppy-mom, have nothing to add to goo's fabulous advice. although I am anxious to see how it works out ... Pauly sounds like a sweetie.

[Horsefeathers!]

[quote name='Mei-Mei']Does your husband wear a beard or a mustache or anything like that? :-?[/quote]

Actually, he does have a beard and mustache and glasses. I've thought about that and don't know if one or a combination of those things might be bothering him. The vet tech at our clinic that Pauly has been lunging at also has a mustache and glasses. We would love for hubby to be able to clip it off to see if it makes a difference, but the reason he has it is because he has never been able to shave or use any kind of hair remover without breaking out (to the point of scabbing) all over his face and neck. He keeps it trimmed very short, but he can't clip it all off. I hope Pauly just learns to deal with hubby just the way he is. So far, today is going better. Of course, it's only today, but I reckon all we can do is take this one day at a time. Since Pauly is being a good boy today, life is good for him today. He's gotten treats, affection and some positive training. Maybe he'll make the connection. :)

[Malamum]

HF, I have been reading along and learing from the advice that you have been given but don't really have anthing of value to add. In my opnion you seem to be doing everything right.

Hope everything works out ok.

[courtnek]

[quote]One other thing? Hubby just mentioned to me that he NEVER has a problem with Pauly when they are alone (minus me).[/quote]

It sounds to me like he is jealous of your husband. He may be thinking he should be the one you love the best (which is a dominance issue) or he may be afraid for some reason that your husband is a threat to you and
so when you're there, he will not tolerate any quick movements from hubby. especially since you guys play-tussle. does he sleep on the bed when hubby isnt there? with you? he maqy be trying to take over hubby's alpha position, or he may think YOU are alpha and he is next in line.
In any case, you need to show him a strong front, from both of you. If he shows any aggression towards hubby, YOU step in and order him to lay down and shut up. since he responds better to you, you may need to take the upper hand until things calm down. Fear-biting dogs dont generally raise hackles, although they will snarl or growl. they will usually tuck tail and then growl to warn the other dog off. I see Laurel do this all the time. The raising of hackles is a threat, without a doubt. Most dogs do it when
feeling secure in their position, and then threatened by something. OR to protect the alpha, which is where I'm going with this. you need to step in and correct his misbehavior. hope that helps and good luck.

[Horsefeathers!]

Thanks, courtnek. :)

Pauly never ever ever offers to get onto the bed or onto any of the furniture. As a matter of fact, he prefers to never leave the floor (Perry, on the other hand, doesn't realize that it's perfectly ok for a dog to lie on the floor :oops: ).

I'm still puzzled as to why this behavior began and escalated so quickly. For four months, Pauly has been the most jovial, loving dog and, though he seemed uncomfortable around my husband at times, he was more timid around him rather than confrontational. Perhaps I just overlooked some very important early signs and unknowingly let it escalate to this point.

I definitely agree that Pauly is jealous of my husband. He can't stand it when my husband plays with Perry, or with me. It makes Pauly nuts. I believe Goo was right about Pauly considering Perry his personal property.

The good news (tentatively) is that the "reality check" last night seems to have made a difference. The day is about over and Pauly and hubby have been coexisting peacefully. I think it made a huge impact that I so strongly "defended" my husband when Pauly bit him last night. Also, (not saying this was the right way or wrong way to handle this, but...) my husband retaliating so (what's the word I'm looking for here) [u]vigorously[/u] seems to have helped Pauly "see the light."

Again, I'm sure it isn't over, but it looks like we've made a definite start. I'm still using a lot of Goo's great advice (hubby doing all the feeding, training sessions and such) and I think we're going to get through this. I suppose it's our fault for not recognizing where it was heading. Pauly is such a sweet goofball that I never would have thought he had it in him. I reckon it's a good reminder that, no matter how experienced you are and how well you treat them, they are still dogs and any dog can pick up some very ooooooogly habits if you don't heed the warnings. I can't believe I let this get by me. Lesson learned. :-?

Anyway, thanks for all the great advice. I'm feeling a little more optimistic now. :)

[courtnek]

It's the little things that get past us, every time. Unless you are looking for them, most people think "Gee, he's crabby today" and ignore it. and then it escalates. Until it becomes a big issue, and people notice it. Believe me, this is how most of these issues. start.

Have a very Merry Christmas. and good luck to you.

:D

[KP]

I've dealt plenty in aggression and I've dealt plenty in dominance...it is very clear to me at this point after reading all this that your dog is confused about his position in the "pack". As a unit I'm not so sure he knows where the pecking order stands and your dog is willing to challenge that. This is why the treats are not working.

Your husband needs to get firm with Pauly...even if that means so much scruffing the (yes, I know) a fully grown, standard sized guy. You don't necissarily need to pull him completely off the ground....just give him a wake up call and let him know you mean business.

I've owned plenty of dogs with this problem and every time...if you ignore it, you bet your beehind its gonna grow because someone has to take the position. That is how a "pack" works. That is pack nature, someone has to step up and be leader and pauly is trying to tell you that he needs more defined leadership.

With a dog that is willing to take a dominant role ( I call this being the arguement starter or drama king or queen) such as you are seeing, they will use it to their advantage. If he senses fear from your husband, it will give Pauly the advantage and he will learn to use it for whatever he wants. Your husband has got to firm up, be stern and not back down in these cases.

I have found that dogs with dominance or even aggression issues actually tend to seem happier and at times less stressed because they don't feel the need to fight for that role. They know someone else qualified for it has taken over and it helps. I think if your husband voices his opinion he will notice a good difference.

Just give the correction that it takes to get him to back down and leave him be. Thats the way dogs correct eachother in a pack.

[Edgar]

Gotta agree with KP. I know that it has almost become "politically incorrect" to put your dog in his/her place using forceful methods. Imagine if a wild wolf pack leader subscribed to this thinking he'd been at the bottom in no time :o .

That being said its obviously best to use it the same way the wolf pack leader would. Sparingly and only when absolutely necessary. Biting would definitely fit this category!!

[courtnek]

While I agree with Edgar and KP that Pauly needs his pecking position in place, I would not, at this time, use scruffing. He has already shown that he will bite when his neck is approached (the leash incident) so to be safe, I would suggest a short 2-ft lead. If you need to snap it to get his attention, at least your hands not in the way. Leave it on him as long as you are with him, but take it off at night before sleep so he doesnt entangle himself in it. This actually makes demotion much easier in the long wrong, and safer for you. I am not a fan of scruffing, and you should never lift the dog off the floor, but a short, sharp snap of the line will remind him who's boss without hurting him. Wolves dont scruff an adult or almost adult pup because it could cause injury to a pack member. Instead, there would be a showdown of teeth posturing, snarling and lunging. If the other wolf didnt back down, it would become a fight, but usually, the almost-adult will give up to the pack lead. If the almost adult DIDNT give up, he would definitely be bitten, although not usually enough to cause any real damage, by the pack lead. And yes, the lead WILL kill a pack member who wont back down, if he has to. Obviously that particular method isnt going to work for you, you cant get down on hands and kness and teeth challenge Pauly, but with the lead in place you can correct him sternly without danger to yourselves, and that includes isolation from you if he doesnt give it up. Hopefully you've caught it soon enough and none of this will be necessary (the sterner forms of demotion, like isolation). The lead and some strong firm stances from you and hubby should be enough to take him down and show him his place.

[Horsefeathers!]

Thanks a bunch! :)

What's weird is that I know all this stuff about pack mentality, but I still ignored the red flags only because I didn't think THIS dog had it in him. Boy, is my face red :oops: !

It helps having forums like this where people can offer me my own reality checks. I genuinely thought of Pauly as only being afraid of my husband, but the more we deal with this, the more we realize he IS confrontational, though it may be tempered with a bit of fear. I'm just taken aback. Pauly? It just blows me away. That's why I say it just serves as a reminder to me that dogs are dogs and ANY of them can pick up ugly habits if an owner (me) is oblivious to the signs because "he's always been such a good dog."

Just in the last couple of days, things are going remarkably well. After Pauly bit my husband, we resorted to just putting the smackdown on him, so to speak. Probably not the politically correct thing to do, but biting is not ok. We haven't scruffed him, but mainly because Pauly is a pretty big boy and scruffing him would be futile. There have been a couple of showdowns where Pauly confronted my husband with his teeth and my husband quickly took him down. He quickly managed to get under his chin where Pauly couldn't grab him, swiped his feet out from under him and flipped him on his back while diving on top of him and pinning him down until he gave it up. All in one swift move. Plus I have become more involved. In hindsight, this seems so stupid, but I was really trying to stay out of it because I thought it would be the wise thing to do to let my husband handle Pauly. DOH! Now I vigorously "defend" my husband when Pauly bucks up on him. Pauly never, ever, ever challenges ME and will do anything to please me. It's helped Pauly see the light since I, in no uncertain terms, show him my displeasure.

It's basically Pauly boot camp around here. When he acts out (aggression only), he is given a swift reality check. When he behaves, life is great for him. Hubby is still handling all the meals, treats, training. We truly don't want Pauly to fear either of us... just respect. The coolest thing is that Pauly is following my husband around like a little puppy. He seems to be genuinely trying to bond with him. So far, (thank doG), Pauly isn't "broken" and afraid of us. To be honest, I was afraid that any show of force would just make him afraid and nervous and I would nearly rather die than have one of my dogs fear me, or be hand shy. He is not and he actually seems to be more content to have clearly defined boundaries of what is acceptable and what is not.

I'm sure it's still not over. Bad habits take a while to learn and a while to unlearn, I reckon. Still, there is marked progress. I just still can't get over the fact that I'm so well aware of how packs work, but missed all the red flags in one of my own. I just never would have thought he had it in him. Lesson learned. :oops:

This is something I've seen debated over and over in many places, but I am convinced that not EVERY problem dog can be handled SOLELY through positive training. I believe punishment and consequences have their place. I almost hate to publicly admit that.

[gooeydog]

It sounds like you're one the right track with him now, and that he's making progress.

Just remember that it's not uncommon for a dog to NOT seem dominant until you finally (maybe after years of coexisting peacfully) do something they see worthy of correcting you for. At least you're moving to fix it, rather than just brushing it off or ignoring it :lol:

[Guest Anonymous]

I was just wondering if it might be your husband's glasses. I've had perfectly friendly dogs act strange with me in the past and wondered at the time if this was the reason. Do you wear glasses also?