Champion Blood Lines Doesn't Guarentee A Champion Dog!!!

[DogPaddle]

I think there are merits to showing and conformation but this community does not always do what is strictly best for the dog or its functionality although great improvements have been made lately. I am refering to what happened in the past to GSDs (slopey back end and bad hips) and many Pug faced dogs (pug snout accentuated until the animal can't breath.) Granted improvements have been made but I can see the argument for breeding for function and working ability before show or conformation.

[Hobbit]

[quote name='RR'][color=indigo]My point is being missed completely. [color=blue][b]And my point is also being missed. [/b][/color]

It seems, Hobbit that you are so adamantly against conformation showing that you are overlooking my points and more interested in being argumentative on anything I say instead. [b][color=red]Not against conformation showing, just against it being crammed down my throat. I am not overlooking your points. You are so blinded by "conformation only" that you can't see the other side. [/color][/b]

Referring to conformation showing as being based on "looks" and pretty makes it sound like more of a miss America beauty pageant when it should be far from that. [b][color=blue]BUT, this is what it is. It's who know who that places. If you are not a well known handler, your chances are not very good that you will place --- even if you have a top dog.[/color][/b]

Sure judges put up "pretty" or "showy" or the dog with the nicest expression ---- but all political aspects aside showing is based on structure & function that allows a dog to do the job it was bred for, NOT the objective to produce dogs that will win in the ring. [color=red][b]That may be the basis, but that is not what is followed. It is political, period. Ask a show person why they breed. Their response is to "produce a champion", not a good hunting dog, a good herding dog, a good tracking dog, ..... but a "show" dog. [/b][/color]

I guess your breed doesn't have unscrupulous breeders putting any two dogs of the same breed together regardless of function/structure, otherwise you'd understand my point [color=blue][b]--- no need to be condenscending. EVERY breed has unethical breeders.....the Kelpie breeders are no exception. If their conformation is lacking, they will not last as a herding dog. This is my point that you are missing.[/b][/color]

----- they are the ones who feel showing is unecessary because are more intent on making money instead of spending money on their dogs. THESE are the breeders who, I too, was originally referring to. THEY use the breeders before them to ADVERT Ch lines not Ch. dogs of present. I see it all the time in my area from breeders in my breed and they are ruining the breed. [b][color=red]I agree with you now, as I agreed with you earlier --- when referring to an AKC recognized breed. [/color][/b]

Right, you've nothing to apologize for. I understand your dogs aren't recognized, and I don't think you realize you are one of the few who do have enough knowledge in breeding/conformation and for unrecognized breeds that is essential, but most breeders do not have your knowledge therefore need some guidance/education and should put the effort into conformation showing because this is where the learning begins. [color=blue][b]In order to show conformation, the dog must be registered with AKC, right? They must be a recognized breed, right? Australian Kelpies are not a recognized breed. We, as breeders/handlers/herding dog trainers, etc... do not want AKC to recognize the Kelpie as a breed --- that would be the demise of the breed, just like the Border Collie, Australian Shepherd and Australian Cattle Dogs and several other breeds. We want to protect our breed from being exploited and ruined by someone that feels that they have to show and breed for *CONFORMATION*. Breeding only for conformation, while disregarding anything else, (especially natural herding ability) destroys the purpose of the breed. Do you see my point? If you are not a person that uses a herding bred dog for a living, you may not see my point.[/b][/color]

Only when they learn to watch the effortless movement of a sound dog going around the ring & feel the body for what is correct will they know. [color=blue][b]You have never seen a dog that works for a living. If their conformation is not correct, they can not continue to work hard everyday.[/b][/color]

A dog show is one of the few places that brings together some of the most knowledgeable people to meet and learn from. [b][color=red]Yes, and some of the most snobbish, rudest, hateful people I've ever met, too.[/color][/b]

Showing in conformation is NOT about a meaningless title of a past, present, or future dog, and it sure isn't about "looking good" its MORE about the effort and the dedication that a breeder of a recognized breed should put into their dogs. [color=red][b]Effort and dedication by a breeder? Do you mean how much time is spent with the dog? Preparation? Or, the overall breeding program? Again, I'm not arguing with you. You think I am, but I am not. You and many others think --- by your comments --- that if a breed isn't recognized by the AKC, then it's a bastard, not pure, not worth anything. And surely if it can't be shown in conformation classes, then the breed isn't worthy.

I guess I HAVE missed your point concerning you statement, [i]"its MORE about the effort and the dedication that a breeder of a recognized breed should put into their dogs"[/i]. So, a person that does not show in conformation classes is not dedicated or puts forth no effort in their dogs? I am really not arguing, just trying to understand why a dog that isn't shown in conformation classes is trash or isn't worthy. I really DO see your point about ethical breeders, people who are just out for the money (yeah, as if there is any money in breeding), people who just throw two dogs together, etc...

I don't think you are seeing my point. That's okay, some people never do.[/b][/color].[/quote]

[mouseatthebusstop]

[quote]would rather have an untitled genetically sound dog --- ANYDAY over a 10X champion idiot that gets lost at the end of a leash and is not correct. I will not appologize for that statement, either. [/quote]
I AGREE HOBBIT A SOUND DOG IS MOST IMPORTANT THAT A CH

[Hobbit]

Thanks, Mouse.

[Poofy]

Youd said:
In order to show conformation, the dog must be registered with AKC, right? They must be a recognized breed, right? Australian Kelpies are not a recognized breed. We, as breeders/handlers/herding dog trainers, etc... do not want AKC to recognize the Kelpie as a breed --- that would be the demise of the breed, just like the Border Collie, Australian Shepherd and Australian Cattle Dogs and several other breeds. We want to protect our breed from being exploited and ruined by someone that feels that they have to show and breed for *CONFORMATION*. Breeding only for conformation, while disregarding anything else, (especially natural herding ability) destroys the purpose of the breed. Do you see my point? If you are not a person that uses a herding bred dog for a living, you may not see my point.





Actually no. There are FCI shows as well as international shows, even UKC shows and shows put on by the parent club to asses comformation to the written standard. AKC is not the only place to show your dog and prove its value *when compared to the written standard as set forth by the parent club*. No, a comformation show cannot asses working ability, that is up to the breeder or the breed club with seperate events...but showing is about selecting the dog, that is closest to the "rules" for "type" as set forth by those who created the breed. I have seen dogs that can work, that look nothing like the breed they are supposed to be...and dogs that are picture book perfect, but could not find their way out of a wet paper bag...there is a *balance* between both worlds.

[Hobbit]

Poofy -- the Kelpies are registerd with The North American Australian Kelpie Registry, Inc. (NAAKR). The imported ones with The Working Kelpie Council (WKC), Australia. The WKC does not sanction conformation classes, nor does the NAAKR.

[Hobbit]

FCI -- World Canine Organization, correct? The closest place to me is Mexico for show.


Show schedules

1. Argentina
2. Brazil
3. Chile
4. Colombia
5. Costa Rica
6. Cuba
7. Ecuador
8. El Salvador
9. Guatemala
10. Honduras
11. Mexico
12. Nicaragua
13. Panama
14. Paraguay
15. Peru
16. Puerto Rico
17. Uruguay
18. Venezuela



April 2003 --- UKC shows
Shows that also have obedience trials are indicated by an *. See the UKC Obedience Trials section for additional events.

4-6 Marshall, MI K9 Fanciers of Michigan. Calhoun County Fairgrounds. Maude Tank, 8734 Marsh Rd., Plainwell, MI 49080
4-6 Marshall, MI UKC Michigan Classic, sponsored by K9 Fanciers of Michigan, Mid West Weight Pullers and North American Jack Russell Terrier Assn. See separate conformation, obedience and weight-pulling listings. Calhoun County Fairgrounds.
4-6 Vancouver, WA American Eskimo Dog Assn. of Oregon. Marshall Community Ctr., 1009 E. McLoughlin Blvd. Candi Chamberlain, 4993 Wagon Trail Ct. S.E., Salem, OR 97301
12-13 Claremont, CA California American Eskimo Assn. Inc. Barbara Saracino, 2130 Doreen Ln., San Marcos CA 92069
12-13 Ann Arbor, MI Michigan Toy Fox Terrier Assn. Arboroads Farm, 3660 S. Maple. Julie Slauterbeck, 22481 Bohn Rd., Belleville, MI 48111
12-13 Lansing, MI Foundation Kai Club of America. Obedience Training Club of Greater Lansing, 2227 Spikes Ln. Marian Campbell, P.O. Box 206, Sunfield. MI 48890
12-13 Decatur, TX North Texas American Pit Bull Terrier Club. Wise County Sheriff's Posse Ground, 3101 S. FM 51. Patti Murley, 2200 Lake Crest Ln., Denton TX 76208-2088
19-20 Tonganoxie, KS Heartland Toy Fox Terrier Assn. Leavenworth County Fairgrounds. Dorothy West, 14546 46th St., Perry, KS 66073
19-20 Minneapolis, MN Northern Lights American Eskimo Dog Assn. Twin City Obedience Training Ctr., 2101 Broadway N.E. Sharon Schroeder, 4356 Hwy. 95 N.W., Cambridge, MN 55008
19-20 Sparks, NV Silver State American Pit Bull Terrier Club. Cottonwood Park, 777 Spice Island Dr. Janice Snyder, 8151 Helens Way, Fallon, NV 89406
26-27 Loveland, CO St. Vrain Dog Club Inc. Larimer County Fairgrounds, 700 S. Railroad Ave. Jo Schon, 30123 WCR 398, Keenesburg, CO 80643
26-27 Somers, CT Twin Corgi Club of America. Pleasant View Ctr., 452 South Rd. Lindsay Heaslip, P.O. Box 91, Ledyard, CT 06339
26-27 Watkinsville, GA Southeastern American Eskimo Dog Assn. Heritage Park. Patrea Pabst, 2966 Hartwell Hwy., Dewy Rose, GA 30634
26-27 Indianapolis, IN Indiana American Eskimo Dog Club. Marion County Fairgrounds, 7300 E. Troy Ave. Vicki Maynard, 10420 S. 375 E., Elizabethtown, IN 47232
26-27 Indianapolis, IN National American Eskimo Dog Assn. American Eskimo Dog Spring Rotating Show. Marion County Fairgrounds, 7300 E. Troy Ave., 4H Horticulture Bldg. Ann Baughn, Rt. 1, Box 243-0, New Canton, VA 23123
26-27 Bel Air, MD Old Line State United DC. Heavenly Waters Equestrian Ctr., 608 N. Tollgate Rd. Gina Plott, 3211 Ascot Ln., Fallston, MD 21047
26-27 Christiansburg, VA North American Jack Russell Terrier Assn. Christiansburg Parks & Recreation Ctr. Judy Slater, 113 Port Victoria Way, Woodstock, GA 30189


[color=red][b]Hum, not one Kelpie show........ [/b][/color]

[Bensam]

Never mind Hobbit, when I come over to America I'll organise a Kelpie Show just for you, I'll even judge it too, so you had better be nice to me :lol:
This is my only comment on 'Conformation', been there, done that, eh Hobbit :wink:

[Hobbit]

When you leave Australia, could you bring a couple or three Kelpie pups with you, for me?? :P

[Guest Anonymous]

With my breed the bloodlines are much more important than the look or conformation of the dog. Someone who breeds APBTs because they have big heads or what not are breeding for the wrong thing.
It is important to know the bloodlines in order to breed the best two dogs together. EX. Gr Ch Jeep ROM is a registered APBT. Looking at his bloodlines you would know what type of dog he would produce and you would try to find a bitch to complemet his traits. On the other hand, Gr Ch 35's bloodlines are unknown. When they tried to breed him they got a bunch of currs. The reason- they had no idea what type of bitch to breed him to. They dont know what traits he carries (which is more than what he shows.) If his bloodlines were known it woouldnt be as difficult to find a bitch to breed to him.
Bloodlines tell you what to expect in your dog and if you do research you will know if the dog is sound or not. A dog that is not genetically sound will produce dogs that are not genetically sound. You just have to be the one to research your breed and find if the generations are sound or not.
its very unfortunate people breed without the knowledge of bloodlines.

[RR]

[quote] [color=red]You are so blinded by "conformation only" that you can't see the other side. [/color][/quote]

[color=green][b]Forget it. This will go on forever. Essentially we're saying the same thing here. Except my words are being twisted about and from that you are drawing your own false conclusions on my opinions.

If being blinded by conformation is a bad thing-------then GUILTY as charged LOL. If you don't have conformation to start-------- meaning STRUCTURE/FORM (not a dog show, not a handling class, not a judge picking the "prettiest" dog, not the best herder or hunter) you have nothing - NO lasting WORKING ability!!! A dogs natural instincts mean nothing if his body can't hold up! As with any PET who is going to be active well into old age, structure is extremely important. It is not the only thing, and I never said it was, there are many things that need to be considered in a good breeding program. *FYI* I am a "show person" as you call it, and would never compromise my breeding program just to "produce a champion" "show" dog.

There are no worthless breeds, only worthless breeders.
[/b][/color]

Poofy wrote:[quote]I have seen dogs that can work, that look nothing like the breed they are supposed to be...and dogs that are picture book perfect, but could not find their way out of a wet paper bag...there is a *balance* between both worlds.[/quote]

[b][color=green]I couldn't agree more!!!!!!!! [/color][/b]:D

[Poofy]

Hobbit: They do have FCI shows all over the US. CA, TX, FL, and many more states. I am willing to bet you could go to an FCI show at some time or another with your dogs.

[Hobbit]

Poofy --- since not many judges or even the common person has even heard of an Australian Kelpie --- it would be difficult, if not impossible to place in a show. The first thing most people ask, "Is that a German Shepherd, Doberman or Rott?"

[Hobbit]

[quote name='RR'][quote] [color=red]You are so blinded by "conformation only" that you can't see the other side. [/color][/quote]

[color=green][b]Forget it. This will go on forever. Essentially we're saying the same thing here. Except my words are being twisted about and from that you are drawing your own false conclusions on my opinions.

If being blinded by conformation is a bad thing-------then GUILTY as charged LOL. If you don't have conformation to start-------- meaning STRUCTURE/FORM (not a dog show, not a handling class, not a judge picking the "prettiest" dog, not the best herder or hunter) you have nothing - NO lasting WORKING ability!!! A dogs natural instincts mean nothing if his body can't hold up! As with any PET who is going to be active well into old age, structure is extremely important. It is not the only thing, and I never said it was, there are many things that need to be considered in a good breeding program. *FYI* I am a "show person" as you call it, and would never compromise my breeding program just to "produce a champion" "show" dog.

There are no worthless breeds, only worthless breeders.
[/b][/color]

Poofy wrote:[quote]I have seen dogs that can work, that look nothing like the breed they are supposed to be...and dogs that are picture book perfect, but could not find their way out of a wet paper bag...there is a *balance* between both worlds.[/quote]

[b][color=green]I couldn't agree more!!!!!!!! [/color][/b]:D[/quote]



RR --- I keep agreeing with you.....I guess you are not understanding that.
And I am glad that you are a show person and wouldn't compromise your breeding program. You are one of a very few and should be commended.

[Hobbit]

[quote name='Poofy']Hobbit: They do have FCI shows all over the US. CA, TX, FL, and many more states. I am willing to bet you could go to an FCI show at some time or another with your dogs.[/quote]


I am looking at several show schedules....and none are listed for Texas. I am not going to California or Florida (as there is no one to care for the stock).

[Poofy]

In an FCI show a dog is not judged against another dog. They are judged against the written standard. Multiple dogs can recieve a V1 rating, in the same class and become champions. The judges at these shows are often familiar with ALL types of dogs not found in the US. In fact, each judge you show to, MUST be from a different country...there for its possible, very possible, to find a judge that is familiar with your breed. You need only 3 V1 ratings, and there are usually at least 3 shows in a two day weekend. The judges give written critiques which is nice, and let you know exactly what they find nice and faulted about your dog.

[Hobbit]

[quote name='Poofy']In an FCI show a dog is not judged against another dog. They are judged against the written standard. Multiple dogs can recieve a V1 rating, in the same class and become champions. The judges at these shows are often familiar with ALL types of dogs not found in the US. In fact, each judge you show to, MUST be from a different country...there for its possible, very possible, to find a judge that is familiar with your breed. You need only 3 V1 ratings, and there are usually at least 3 shows in a two day weekend. The judges give written critiques which is nice, and let you know exactly what they find nice and faulted about your dog.[/quote]


Still [b]UNABLE[/b] to find a FCI show in Texas.

[Poofy]

You need to look for an international dog show, not an FCI show, sorry, the international shows do FCI breeds.... Any how here is a link to their calander of events
[url]http://www.internationaldogshow.com/Dog%20Show%20Calendar.htm[/url]

[Hobbit]

Oh yeah, I'm going after the "World Beauty Champion" title!! :wink: :lol:

[bk_blue]

awww come on Hobbit, you've got a good chance of taking BIB :P

[Guest roo]

blue :-?
I think you mean BOB :lol:

[Guest roo]

:megagrin:

:sleep2: :sleep2: :sleep2: :sleep2: :sleep2:

awwwwwww bless :angel:

[bk_blue]

*wakes up* arrrgh sorry... can you tell I'm not a show person... best OF breed not best IN breed!!

Anyway you all got what I meant!!! I think Hobbit would stand a good chance as long as he doesn't bite the judges. :wink:

[Horsefeathers!]

That's ok... around here, BOB means something else entirely and the idea of Hobbit winning one gave me this weird visual that I just can't shake. You probably don't want to know what. :oops:

[Hobbit]

Oh, Yeeeesss, DO tell! :P

Yeah, I can really see Hobbit at a show. He'd faint.

Several of the others --- with their broken, missing and chipped teeth, split, scared and parts missing from their ears. OH YEAH....they're attractive.
:wink: