RR

Well "guest" I find it difficult to believe with some 400 breeds (??) one can not find a suitable hunting companion. I grew up with sporting/hunting dogs who were great hunters, more than capable of pointing and retrieving so I know such a dog exists. Just because your golden had inherited problems and diseases and was from a pedigreed line doesn't necessarity mean that if she was or one of her parents were bred to another breed these problems would be gone. For one, any responsible breeder will have their dogs tested & certified before they breed to lessen the chances, and breeding to another breed won't fix these diseases but add to the equation because a responsible breeder now not only has to contend with problems common to the golden but test for the problems associated with the other breed. [quote]It is my opinion that you want a dog with as many desirable traits as possible and as few undesirable as possible. Sticking to only standard breeds will never allow this to happen. [/quote] Neither will this consistantly happen with breeding mix breeds. You could end up with all of the "undesired" traits of both breeds. The chances are 50/50 [quote]You are discouraging the chance to give dogs longer life spans, stronger immune systems and in general a BETTER more enjoyable life. [/quote] As does bad breeding, poor diet, and overvaccinations but it still occurs. Please show me how you can be certain there will be longer live spans, stronger immune systems and better lives???? [quote]It is called evolution. A species bettering itself by encouraging stronger traits and weeding out the weaker ones. [/quote] Funny that in some 15,000 years of domesticity, "weak" dogs are still around. [quote]It is as bad as saying that blacks and whites shouldn't marry and have children because they are of a different race. [/quote] No sorry this is not the same at all. [quote]Yes people need to be responsible and take care of the animals that they bring into this world but it is not cross breeding that is creating the overpopulation of dogs it is plain and simply IRRISPONSIBLE OWNERSHIP, weather that be the breeder or the subsequent owner. [/quote] Uh - this is my point, I am refering to irresponsible owners who breed without standing behind their puppies for the life of the dog. Believe it or not there is a surge of irresponsible cross breeding breeders as well.

First of all I am not American and I don't quite know what your getting at about the American POV. Dog overpopulation is a world wide problem. There are many countries where dogs are scavengers wandering the streets, homeless and many countries with shelters too full to home every dog. The indiscriminate breeders I am referring to are those cashing in on the dollar with the dozens of emerging mixed breeds like maltepoos, cockapoos, schnoodles..., who sell them as "designer" dogs, registered breeds, purebreds, and other lies. I've seen some advertised for $800-900 dollars which is more than the cost of many purebred dogs! You sound much more dedicated than those of whom I am referring, and I am certain that as one who is working hard to establish a new breed, you can understand it only takes a few unscrupulous breeders putting any two dogs together with no regard to health, consistency, & type to ruin a breed (or potential breed etc). I'm sure if your silken woolhounds were suddenly advertised all over and bred by anyone, you too would be upset - no? IF these "type" of people were breeding purebred dogs, dog fanciers would refer to them as Backyard Breeders, commercial breeders, puppy mills etc. What isn't evident is that poo mix breeders I'm talking about are not working toward a goal but like I said before, for every few that have a goal dozens more have ulterior motives. Why is being "nasty" because of an opposing view on unscrupulous mixed breeding? One thing I most advocate is being fully responsible for life for the dogs a "breeder" (*and by breeder I mean anyone having a litter, intentional or accidental) brings into this world, when shelters and rescue are full of unwanted dogs - I see this is not happening and until then I can not support people making new breeds for personal gain. It isn't about my ideals or idea of normal its about the dogs. As far as a pointless discussion goes -There are very few things I see pointless, anything educational serves a purpose. With every post someone learns something - i learned about Silken Woolhounds a name I hadn't heard before. Curious to know (and no I am not being nasty just genuinely asking) but aren't these also referred to by some as the so called 'long haired whippets" or lurcher type dogs? What is the difference?

[quote]a) All countries do not have an overpopulation of dogs. In my country, Sweden, we do not have rescues and ponds and shelters. We don't need them. [b][color=red]If that is true and I highly doubt it, one country that may or may not have an overpopulation problem doesn't account for all the other countries, sometimes we have to look further than our own stomping grounds -- just because you don't see it doesn't mean its nonexistant [/color][/b] b) There are lot's of breed creation projects going on. If you know where to look:-) And they are seldom going very public with it, they are working for decades on it before telling any one, small groups of breeders who are not making a penny out of their life's project, at least not the first decades. [b][color=red]I'm well aware there are breed creation projects and there are breeders who are trying to establish something, but the unscrupulous breeders breeding for profit, popularity etc are harming the breeds in the mean time - they will breed anything with no regard to health testing. They are more numerous than the handful of dedicated breeders working toward a goal -- and are ruining what these breeders are working toward! I am sure this is upsetting to them[/color][/b] In several of these projects (that require breeders with knowledge but also a lot of money, land and resources) dogs are simply not sold. [b][color=red]So the dogs not sold are not euthanized? The breeders pay to have them all spay/neutered? They are also paying the huge expense of having all of these dogs tested and certified clear of health problems? With that many dogs these breeder still have time to love, care and provide for all of these dogs each litter for at least 10 years without having them live in cages AND still continue to breed and experiment on more dogs and litters? I doubt it. Maybe that is what they are not going "public" because if they did animal rights groups and dog fanciers would be quite upset!![/color][/b] c) breeds that already are a couple of decades on the way, actually do have clubs, national as well as international. And some of them start to be recognised here and there, usually in some obscure country at first who doesn't have the prestige to think of, like the big well known kennel clubs [b][color=red]Like a said before anyone can start a club or registry, a handful of shady breeders does not constitute a reputable club.[/color][/b] Don't make the mistake to think that everyone wanting to make a new breed goes out to the public during the first 10 generations, wanting to SELL! [b][color=red]Not everyone but the MAJORITY do and are doing that right now!!!! Hence the hefty price take of a mixed breed ___poo.[/color][/b] I know. Because I've been involved in such a project for several years. So far I've only bred 3 litters. Never sold one single puppy and do not intend to sell one single puppy in the next 2-3 generations at least. All breeders in our group do not keep every puppy, simply because they are doing it a much larger scale than I am. At some point even a big place busts at the seams [b][color=red]A big place busts at the seams? What do you mean? Sounds comparable to a puppy mill to me. Please enlighten us, if they do not sell their test puppies and they do not keep them then what do they (and you) do with all of these innoncent puppies? Surely after all their "hard work" they wouldn't be giving them away................[/color][/b] If you think new breeds is just about Cockerpoo, etc, you are gravely misinformed. [b][color=red]When was it stated that the new breeds are just about cockapoos? I only wish it were about one new breed <SIGH> I'll never understand, that with so many breeds and mixes in existence right now, why there needs to be more "new" breeds created???? - especially when so many do not have homes as it is.[/color][/b]

Sorry to hear that your poor pooch contracted KC. I'm sorry, I don't agree with vets on many issues of vaccines. [quote]The vet (who didn't give her the vaccine -- I did, with the help of someone else in my rescue group) says it doesn't sound like she got it from the vaccine, because it normally takes longer for it to develop. He said it takes about a month; we gave her the vaccine almost two weeks ago. [/quote] I'm not so sure I would believe vet on this, no I'm not a vet, but rarely will a vet admit a vaccine played a role in contracting what a dogs was vaccinated for. A dog can have a reaction to a vaccine immediately - or after quite some time. For many things I believe in letting dogs develop their own immunity. My dogs/pups go many places with us and are exposed to many things. Being that they are healthy to begin with I know that this exposure helps build up their immunity. I understand there are several pathogens that cause kennel cough but the vaccine only includes two strains... this is enough for me NOT to vac. for kc I know people who have sucessfully used homeopathic remedies to treat kc. This is one option you might consider -- although recommended to follow the advice of a homeopath.

I was never an advocate of corn in the diet primarily because I could not be sure of the grade and quality, nor was I convinced it had any benefits. Many sources say there is no nutritional value to corn, other sources claim that if in the whole form, it can be good. Corn is often given a bad rap as part of a marketing ploy. Some companies claim corn is in their food for a reason, not just a filler. There is grade 1 corn that some brands use - usually in its whole form. Other companies that sell cheap food use corn as a filler because they can get it cheap. The cheaper grades of corn are often covered in molds and spores - another reason why people don't like it. Unless a brand states "whole corn" theres no telling what part of the "corn" is used - be it the husk, corn "meal", gluten etc., anything not whole which has even less of a nutritional value. Many times an animal fed food with this "bad corn" will develop allergies and vets often relate it to corn. I suppose comes down to the source.

True, i don't hear a lot about this brand either - but the 2002 Whole Dog Journal list Eagle Pack as one of their top 10 recommended foods. I do like the 23% protein level, many other brands are higher - which I dont like. If your dogs are doing well on it and it sounds as though they are .... then perfect :) I own Volhards book which i find useful in areas. We feed a BARF diet consisting of meat, bone, veggies and fruit and no grains (except what is in some of their treat biscuits). I know Volhard is big on the use of grains. Dogs also get carbohydrates from veggies and fruit.

The yellow foamy stuff is bile -- stomach acids from having an empty stomach. I would just leave the food out for him, if he is healthy and hungry he will eat.

Yes, and I know dogs who have contracted kennel cough despite being vaccinated for it. One dog in particular had kc for almost a year after the vac. I won't give my dogs the bordatella vac. because i feel its not necessary for a healthy dog. I know its usually a requirement for those who board their dogs in kennels.

I don't have a lot to say, and sorry you guys are going through this, sounds baffling indeed! Any chance he was vaccinated before this begun? Vomitting can be a sign of vaccinosis, although likely accomodated by other symptoms. Vaccinosis - often overlooked by vets. Wouldn't be eating a poisonus plant of some sort .........would he?? hope you are able to find whats wrong.

I've seen this label before.............. do tell! ;) I dont care for the corn and would prefer to see the meat sources ahead of the grains, dont like the salt. I'm happy to see the supplements (folic acid, vit e, acidophilus etc) in there but wonder what grade they are. Kelp is very good for dogs. I always read that (unless vegetarian) dogs do not need taurine added as they can make their own from vit B - its cats that need taurine in their diets. Care needs to be taken if a taurine supplement is give to dogs with specific conditions.

Mama AJ I like your view on breeding. :) .......and I like a versatile dog. For me, its not so much the titles dogs can get that hold great meaning, the meaning comes with breeders who are dedicated to be involved in conformation shows and performance events and produce dogs capable of it all, as well as breeding for health, temperament and type!

[quote]My thoughts exactly. One thing I am at a loss at is Lure-Coursing & Agility are pretty much the only ability sports available for the RR. I would like to get my line involved in actual simulated hunts and don't know where to start. [/quote] I do know a couple of people with tracking titles on their RRs. There is a yahoo group for hunting ridgebacks [url]http://groups.yahoo.com/group/RR_Hunting/[/url] Perhaps someone on the list knows who to contact for that. I know a RR couple who enjoy hunting with their dogs. Then, as I am sure you know there are other things like weight pulling.... I like how versatile our breed is :)

Thanks HF --- thats something about the poodle breed I didn't know :) p.s. you are absolutely right, but I look at it as correct conformation should be the the foundation for everything else... temperament - soundness, health, ablilty, and a million other things I didn't list are all other things vital in one's breeding program :) then there are a million other things that make a good breeder ;)

[quote]The petfiner board tells me that i sould have never been a breeder and i probally was a bad one. They say this because of how i have had my pup since she was 5 weeks old. [/quote] I don't understand how your purchasing a pup that was 5 weeks old from another breeder relates to your own breeding practices & ethics??? On the other hand if you are selling your own dogs pups at 5 weeks of age I can see how some people wouldn't understand this.......

[quote]Picture THIS in the water retrieving, or doing agility[/quote] Actually HF with the trimming on a poodle such as the one in the photo you posted isn't there a practical purpose to that -- more than just to look pretty? I thought while doing their job, the thick hair was to keep a poodle and their organs warm in the water while the shaved areas were to help them from being bogged down in the water?? I thought this stylized look frequently seen at dog shows originated with the hunters? (sry I don't know much about the poodle standard) ;)

Form follows function. If you look at where any dog came from conformation is extremely important --- if a dog doesn't have conformation it can't do the job it was bred to do. I believe breeders especially new breeders should be involved in conformation shows even if to start you are just a spectator. I always learn something and make a point to do so. To plan on having correctly built dogs you need to know what is correct. Showing, I believe is a small but important part. Research, history of the breed, knowing the breed standard, knowledge of conformation, structure & genetics is important. In the multitude of replies this topic is sure to create I believe you will hear about breeders who breed for "showy" and flashy looks --- which is what conformation means to some. NOT that this is right. I personally would avoid the breeder who's focus is a pretty coat. Others look past flashy and believe in having their dogs evaluated by people qualified to do so. THEN you will hear about those who breed strickly on working ability and the dogs keenness to hunt, track, race whathaveyou. The dog may or may not resemble breed standard. NOT that this is right either. All in all remember there are breeders out there who breed for BOTH correct conformation and ability --- to me this is the ideal and I would certainly try hard to find such a breeder for a mentor. JMO :)

[color=blue]Interesting post Tifa. I can understand where your coming from although I'd be interested to know, since you have singled out the bulldog, if you've addressed your questions to bulldog clubs and breeders and what your suggestions were as to how to solve these "problems"? If so what is the feedback you've gotten from breeders? Are you a member of any bulldog club? Obviously you know you can't just suddenly add in a longer snouted dog or a smaller headed dog and walla problem solved --- unfortunately genetics doesn't work this way. And.... just because some breeders haven't come across these "problems" in their lines don't assume they aren't aware or breeding carefully.[/color]

[quote]When you outcross Ridgebacks you get larger Ridgebacks, but when you inbreed or linebreed they stay the appropriate size. [/quote] [color=darkblue]This is not necessarily true. I've seen plently of outcrossed RRs well within standard, as well as linebred RRs over-standard.[/color]

Jerakeen writes:[quote]RR I suggest you take a good look round the net. In America there are 2 clubs for Cockerpoos. One appears to be far more responsible than the other so there are people trying to do it properly. [/quote] And I can start the [b][color=blue]Ooodle-Doodle [/color][/b]Club but doesn't mean its going to be a reputable club run by people with only good intentions for the breed. A handful of "new breed" clubs is small in comparison to the numerous "new breeds" being created.

There is an outbreak of "breeders" breeding these poo and oodle mixes. I am against creating new breeds because: 1- There are already millions of dogs are PTS because of lack of homes 2- I repeatedly read about mix breeders condoning this practice, and see them posting all over to sell puppies, but don't know the name of 1 "breeder" working toward establishing and actual breed club (which is where they would need to start before breeding) with a realistic "breed" standard for the new breed. How would an agreement between "breeders" be reached to determine if the oodledoodle should mirror the traits type and temp. moreso of the oodle or the doodle? How does one say it is alright for "me" to breed my mix but not alright for you to breed your mix? 3- A serious fancier would spay/neuter all of these "test" puppies who are not going to be the right result for several generations until consistency is set. This includes temperament, health, type, ability. Can you see these breeders altering all of their pups before they are purchased? 4- For every 1 serious breeder hoping to establish such a breed there will be a dozen unscrupulous breeders "cashing in". Leading to #5 5- An Explosion in the numbers of dogs being bred, resulting in MORE dogs in shelters. 6- It is essential these "breeders" have a great understanding of canine genetics & health and knowledge of canine anatomy/conformation however many don't. 7- Buyers are under the false impression that because these mixes are $$ Expensive they are getting a well bred quality dog. They are also being made to believe these mixes are already recognized breeds.

[quote]but pointing the finger as it were and saying that he/she Quote RR:- by far has more understanding in this area than MANY of the breeders here. Is in fact "dissing" the other posters on this thread and the other breeders who use this forum... [/quote] No that is wrong. Doesnt mean other breeders know nothing, just that one person has displayed some exceptional knowledge.

K, I realize that and am not "dissing" anyone. Simply pointing out the fact that [b]I FEEL [/b]Poofy has a good understanding of canine genetics. That is my opinion and I feel that anyone reading this thread could learn a lot from Poof. I have knowledge and great interest in this area and but am not going to post my .02 because I don't want my everyword taken out of context BUT am ENJOYING reading the info posted. :lol: :lol:

Whatever Hobbit Obviously from Poof's posts the knowledge is there and by far has [b]more understanding[/b] in this area than [b]MANY [/b]of the breeders here.

[quote]I never claimed to be an expert on dog breeding in fact just the opposite, I stated that I have never and will never breed dogs. I can however make statements about the detrement of inbreeding on a gene pool. What I have not liked about your responses is that they could give the wrong idea to people who are unfamiliar with genetics. Take for example, Hmmmmm's response that he knows nothing about genetics (these are the authors words) but he thinks that inbreeding is a fantastic idea as long as he can't *see* anything wrong with his dogs. This is a dangerous practice. [/quote] Poofy has stated some valuable points and has quite an understanding in canine genetics. If people are unfamiliar with genetics then they should take it upon themselves to do some proper research to come to some understanding especially if they have intentions to breed. A lot worse comes out of breeders who don't care and breed, than by those having Poofy as a mentor. You may not want to breed but follow and study along side a knowledgeable breeder for the next 20 or 30 years and watch what happens, you may be surprised.

?? What happened I went to that site but could find no such post??