Poofy

As for the other part: As I said...I cleared that up when I made refference to Babara Mclintock as she was involved with the study of Maize and transposons. When I mentioned E. Coli I forgot to detail that was involved with Starlinger and Shapiro. So pardon me for forgetting that detail. I have no idea who Shigella is.

Hobbit: I reffered to Bacteria when I replied about molecular genetics. And yes I know a bacteria phage is a virus. And as for the little blurb on Barbara Mclintock...I thought I made that clear in my other post where I said I had not made any sense when I typed that. I forgot a few sentences. And Yes I also know the definitions to the stuff that you replied too. I was not bringing that up with the expectations that everyone would know, nor was I realizing you would need the full text explinations...I made "reference" to them as pretty much of an example. As for your other detailed references...your books simply read differently then mine. I even double checked what I wrote in reference to MRNA You say: An RNA molecule transcribed *from* the DNA of a gene, And William S Klug says: The coded information in DNA is first transferred during a process called inscription INTO a messanger RNA molecule. The MRNA subsequently associates with a cellualr organelle, the ribosome, where it undergoes translation into a protien, the end product of almost all genes. p8 Concepts of Genetics I thought I had that pretty much down...as I just looked it up the other night for another question I was having from another book. I don't think what I said is different from what you said...only worded differently.

lastly: As for the site hobbit posted...while it was interesting...I will not put much weight in the value of private web pages. If its not published buy the scientific community I am not really interested in it. And its very difficult for me to put any stock into a web page that promotes the breeding and selling of mixed puppies using a bit of out of context fact to sell what they are breeding. I have plenty of books and online zines to read and keep me busy for the next year or so. Currently I am reading a DNA book by Berg and Howe which is very dry boring and I have fallen asleep on it a few times. It would be nice if these books would have some action scenes every once in a while (grin) :D I am currently looking for a good used copy of Cancer Chemotherapy in Small Animal. Practice by Jane M Dobson and Neil T Gorman, if any one has one they want to part with. <hint> There is supposed to be a good section on tumor biology. Any how...sleep tight...I am off to bed ;)

Thanks rosebud...you understood what I meant then...I wasn't being litteral you are right about that... :) Geeze, if I was, that really would make you cross eyed huh?

I want to ad something to my post..becasue I know how people are such sticklers for details... ;) Tranposible genetic elements were first studied, in depth in maize. Transposons were also first associated with bacterial and viral resistance to antibiotics. It was suggested that the genes responsible were actually mobile and could move between bacterial plasmids and chromosomes... I realize I ran that info together and it didn't quite make sense...sorry.

Woah: This is a complete and utter mish mash of non-sensical science words copied and pasted from an old text book...."gram positive" referes to a type of bacteria and has NOTHING to do with genetics. I am perfectly aware that gram positive has to do with Bacteria, but if you are dealing with the Genetic material of bacteria, and site specific transpondible elements...it has EVERYTHING to do with genetics. DNA exisists in bacteria. Bacteria are much more simple and often easier to deal with then looking at a more complex organism Transposons are hopping pieces of DNA shown to be present in the mamalian genomes only very recently, do you know where they came from, cause I do. Then I am suprised that you do not know that the first transposible elements to be used for genetic analysis was done in bacteria. The E coli bactiophages. That was over 50 years ago by Marbnara Mc Clintock. Transposons are not hopping genes, from the way I was taught, rather ther are genetic elements or units that can be "transposed" within the genome. What the cr** is a pritien? Did you mean protein....that again is NEVER part of DNA. I would be willing to explain anything you want, but PLEASE speak real words not jibberish. Pritien was a type-o ...should have been protien. Sorry about that. Actually protien binds certain parts of Mu DNA thats why I was asking. Is it apart of that binding process/coding ? or what? As for protien not having any part of DNA... When DNA is coded into MRNA the MRNA is associated with the robisome where is undergoes translation into PROTIEN. Protien is HOW a genetic code is expressed. Almost all the possible codes in DNA specify one of the twenty amino acids, the chemical building blocks of protien.... And I am speaking real words thank you.

Komodors are in the White LGD group (large guardain dogs) along with Pyrs, Kuvas, Marammer and other white guardain breeds. They are know for their very protective nature and armor like coats. They are often shaved down once a year with the sheep. They will pick up plant life in there coats as it grows out making them look like the landscape. ;) They are NOT a dog for the faint of heart. The show, corded, look that you see in the ring is not how the coat naturally looks when left to its own demise. (BTW puli do come in white but they are hearding dogs not guardian dogs)

You said:Doc wrote: You are 100% wrong that outbreeding will not get rid of mutations within the population. When you outbreed you can ELIMINATE the bad allelel from the POPULATION by selective breeding, thereby ELIMINATING the disease. What you are saying is that selective breeding is what is eliminating the disease not the outcrossing on it's own. Could this not also be achieved through selective line-breeding? " Absolutely. Selective breeding is the key.

I have fed everything from pedigree dog food to 80.00 per 40 pound dog food, all the way to BARF. I have honestly found, that a good kibble, will maintain a dog to long lived health. I have found no difference on coat, teeth, health, when compared to raw foods. The 80.00 bag of dog food did the dog no better then the 30.00 bag....I will never feed "bargain" brand again...as that was like feeding chicken feed....I will stick to a good balanced kibble and give treats like carrots, green beans, and melons on the side...

You probably need to check with the Untites Kennel club...they are the ones who recognize them. Coon hounds and Blood hounds are similar I think...those are AKC recognized.

Um...not that it really matters....but I don't think he is a pyr/saint mix. Both of those breeds have tiangluar ears set on the side of the head...he looks more like a shephern saint mix to me....his ears look like they might try to stand later on... Like I said...not that it matters....but I just could not help but notice.

Maybe there is only one parent because the offspring is a clone? :) Gotta love that asexual reproduction :)

The thing is they are not creating a new breed. That i the point. Most only want that cross breed, with a fancy name to sell it. The other reality is, that there are already *SO MANY* mixes...many poodle and or cocker mixes...that we don't need any more...and there is the truth that no responsible poodle breeder or cocker breeder (at least that I know of) would sell a dog knowing it was going to be mixed...therefor...more then likely many of these people are starting out with inferior stock...even with a crossbreed...you start out with inferior you get inferior.... Now could there be some one out there trying to perfect a cockapoo breed? sure...but why call it a cockapoo...why not come up with an origional name? As for Labradoodles...sheesh we alreay have them...called the irish water spanial or the curly coated retriever.... ;)

I did look at it...and yes I would consider that to be a very tight inbreeding...I am willing to bet that the COI on that breeding would be in the 30+% .

Thats really wild hobbit...as you would think farmers would want as high of a yield as possible...and the only way to achieve that would be a lower COI...really strange that they did not use that practice as I know many horse breeders and beef cattle people...do. I have seen beef cattle persons use frozen semen out of what ever bull was chosen as the best producer, sticking to COI of less then 2%. What kind of problems were they seeing? Just high mortality or what? do they know what was causing the still births? Seems like they would have brought in at least a few different bulls to decrease depression?

Nope...don't make a "copy" of tha page. That is copy right infringment. You can re-write the information into a body of text dealing with your web page and site the info...but you cannot make a copy of any part of the book.

Hobbit said: "I'm not saying that you are wrong, .... only misinformed." Well Hobbit I never said it did not decrease it, only not as much and If I am wrong so are Klug and Cummings. And I quote " Inbreeding depression is a measure of the loss of fitness caused by inbreeding. In domesticated plants and animals, inbreeding and selection have been used for thousands of years, and these organisms already have a high degree of homozygosity at many loci. FURTHER inbreeding will usually produce only a SMALL loss of fitness. However in breeding among individuals fro large, RANDOMLY mating populations, can produce HIGH levels of inbreeding depression." So no I am not misinformed. As for hybrids and cross breeds. Quoted from Klug and Cumming " If members of two favorable lines are mated, hybrid offspring are often more vigerous in desirable traits than is either of the parental lines. This phenomenon is called hybrid vigor." When you use the word hybrid, in dealing with a breeding program, it can be interchanged. The word Cross breed, means just that, two distinct and different breeds...which can also be reffered to as a hybrid in some sense of the word. Out crossing and Hybrid are related in refference to a breeding program of what ever type (plant or animal). Yes, Hybrids can be a cross of different species. However that is limited. Very few hybrids between species are successful because of the un-equal number of chromsomes between parents, which is why, in most cases the offspring are sterile.

You can copy text from a book or magazine as long as you *properly* cite the information. Where it came from, when it was written, who wrote it.

I was using the word outcrossing, in reguards to if you bred to another breed...as the first post suggested. Sorry about that...I should have been more percise. I do agree with you...you can find health within the same breed, through out crossing, you need not "hybridize or cross breed" to achieve it.

Out crossing: Out crossing can be breeding to the same breed with no common relatives...or breeding to a different breed...depending on how you use the word. Its usually means within the same breed and cross or hybrid for mixing of two breeds...but I have used it both ways and so have other breeders. In many breeds, out crossing within the same breed is nearly impossible.

Inbreeding: Inbreeding is the breeding of relatives. People often label breeding of half cousins or breeding two with distant grand parents, as line breeding, but in reality it is all the same, just to a different degree. Inbreeding has a different effect on large non related populations in comparison to populations that have a higher level of homozygosity. This is why inbreeding in zoos can cause so much damage...where in domesticated plants and animals there is not that much of a loss of fitness.

And yes, I freely admit...I suck at molecular genetics. But then have you ever tried to read through topics like Mu DNA, Circularization of Infecting DNA, Mu encoded protiens, Ribosomomal frame shifting, Replicative Transposition, Mechanism of G inversion? and other such topics. Its enough to make your eyes glaze over. For example.... I am still trying to work out as to where TN3, TN7, TN1721 exactly are located (as in are they themselves gene sequencing or only a pritien within the gene?) and what they do, I understand they are some sort of family dealing with protien coding (GCAT)...I realize that they are gram positive transponsons...but understanding their use can make your eyes cross. So I applogize for my ignorance. If any one out there would like to help me understand and figure out some sort of system so that I can remember protien codes I am all for it. Also I would like to know how they decide the difference between a heptanucleotide and a nucleotide, as well as how they catagorize TN families? Is it location? or legth of code? Is it based on the 3' end or the 5' end or am I totally off on either of those assumptions? Or is it based on its positive or nagative charge? Reading books about the results of gene combinations is alot easier then reading books about the molecular aspects of protien sequencing..... Hey...at least ignorance is curable. :)

Hobbit: You wrote"No so. Selective breeding....very strict breeding and a willingness to cull (severely, if needed) " I think you are splitting hairs. I never said for people not to breed selectively. I also said "I think the answer...in all honesty is for dog breeders to act like dog breeder and make the decisions that have to be made inorder to move a breed forward. " My statement of "natural selection" was in reply to if you wanted total out crossing.....and the only way to achieve a truly very low COI and almost non exsistant genetic disease...would be to let dogs breed "as in nature". I am not willing to do that. I would rather have to face my genetic problems. I Stated: By inbreeding, very heavily, in mutliple kennels, they were able to locate carriers, erradicate effecteds and reduce the problem....this same thing was done in collies in reguards to CEA. There are very few "debilitating" problems in reguards to collie eye. It still exsists, but mostly in a grade that does not impact the dog. You stated: You just contradicted the above statement. Yes I, was giving examples where inbreeding has proven to be a vaulable too...you also left out where I gave examples of out crossing helping the basengi breed here.

you asked: Ok, I have to ask, Why do you inbreed? " Traditionally, breeders will tell you they inbreed to set "type"...to create preditability....and while there is some truth to that...it is not (75%) of the time, the out come that you get. Inbreeding can and will produce a vast diversity, because it pairs together many recessives. Selecting particular lines and inbreeding on them because of their history of production is a smarter way to inbreed. That is where you will reduce your variables and increase your homozygosity. Inbreeding can bring to the surface...good...giving you a leg up...or bad....putting you back at square one (or F1 in this case) Does it help the dog in any way at all? If it does, can you tell me how it does? I can produce a very potent producer, and it can produce a dog of better type. If the inbreeding is done on lines that are screened for a particular genetic disease it could produce a dog that is homozygous normal. It can also produce all the opposites. "Even if inbreeding does cause just minor defects like and extra teat, why is it so important that it be done?" People usually do it because they feel they have something they can predict. By using a particular line you kind of limit your potential problems. If you do get into trouble you can out cross (resubmerge the problem) and head a different way without having to start over. If you have a mish-mash pedigree...your chances of knowing where the problem is comming from and knowing where to go, is very slim.

You asked: " One more question.....Do you or would you consider outcrossing you dog lines? That was really the point of this post originally and perhaps that is the way I should have started the post. Reading the articles that I posted lead me to believe that not many people are willing to outbreed dogs and this is bad." I do both. I out cross and I inbreed. I have not found any differences in reguards to health. I have been able to breed a genetically clear PRA line as well as a genetically clear heart (mitacardial valve) line. I say "clear" I am at least 90% that it is clear because of the particular breedings that have not produced any PRA or murmurs. I have brought in some stuff though that I will have to pay attention too. One is a swedish line, that has no known history for "scanning" for problems...the other line is a line where there are known affecteds in reguards to heart. However, I will not be line breeding on that area of the pedigree. When you are dealing with a breed that has a very limited gene pool, this can be tricky. I have gone to great lengths to obtain genetic out crosses....even purchasing a dog that is 9 years old, in hopes to revive a sound line that was lost, because it did not win. Now would I out cross to a different breed? There is not a breed, in my honest opinion that would be safe to out cross too. Chihuahua, have a complete different type, size and temperament, Shih-tzu are chrondrodysplastic, so are pekes, toy spaniel have a some sort of autosonomal recessive that leaves puppies blind and deaf (strangly enough seems to happen when you out cross particular lines) and cavalier king charlse have heart problems that I would not want to deal with. While they have gotten it undercontrol within the breed, there is no way to know that my breed would not carry modifiers that would cause the problem to escalate. There is not anything that is worth "risking" to out cross too and bring back in. I feel that I would be better off, out crossing, to a forgein line. Which I have done. Not looking at the area of irresponsible breeders, and looking only at the areas where a person would consider the breeder to be ethical...you have the problem of genetic bottle necking for one main reason. When you compete, be it comformation, field, herding, lure coursing, you find yourself relying on a small competative gene pool that is capable of success. Good breeders have painted themselves into a corner in respects to what makes a good breeder. Some one who competes, contributes, and succeeds in what they do. Well, because of this, some of the most popular and most plentiful breeds have suffered. Comformation, for example, is designed so that only a set number of dogs can finish a CH each year. The dogs compete against each other. They fight for a CH title. If a particualr "type" of dog is winning then people will seek out that type and breed to it. In breeds such as boxers, shelties, golden retrievers, and labs, you may have to beat out 50+ animals in order to obtain a particular point amount to build up a CH. While to the outsider this game seems nonsense...you have to understand that when you are*in* the dog world what you DO defines WHO you are. To many people in dogs cannot understand why a CH should *not hold so much value. In many breeds it can cost upwards of 20 thousand dollars to CH a dog. In the Japanese Chin it does not take as many to pick up majors to obtain a CH....however we have just the opposite problem..there are not enough dogs to breed too or compete against. Most breeders do not understand or have any knowledge about genetics on any level and often cannot understand the reprocussions of the choices they have made. Also, there are the secrets. You don't talk about your problems because if you do, your dogs are "bad"...if you don't talk about your problems...then how can you know what other people have? Lont time breeders have been crusified for speaking out against certian pedigrees. And those who refuse to breed to those pedigrees (even the healthy dogs of those lines) paint themselves into a corner in reguards to high COI. In the aspect of field work, where there are breeds that must compete for those titles, there are often a very few who succeed. Especially in the golden retriever. The golden, must compete with the labrador to obtain a field title. Labs, being historically tough more competative dogs are competing in tests designed for the Lab...the golden is having to work like a lab...very few goldens can accomplish an FC...and this rarity has in a sense "split" the breed into to distinct types. Almost all FC dogs today go back to two very well known dogs. The only way to truly "solve the problem" would be to allow dogs to breed uncontrolled and allow for survival of the fittest. I will take my genetic problems rather then that. A way to "maintain" the problem and reduce genetic bottle necking in the competative world would be to change the way dogs compete...then you have the argument that poor specimines will be winning.... I think the answer...in all honesty is for dog breeders to act like dog breeder and make the decisions that have to be made inorder to move a breed forward. Also, there are breeds and breed clubs who have attempted what you are suggesting...one that comes to mind is the dalmation...which was granted permission to out cross the pointer. The results were not at all good. Infact, from what I understand it was quite detrimental, and the lines were scrapped. Also, the seeing eye foundations, were for a while, doing hybrid crosses with labs to goldens, and even poodles...they are still not decreasing their probelms with PRA and dysplasia and have just as many affecteds with those hybrids as they did with the pure breds (plus several new problems)...that was also scrapped and I believe most are using goldens or labs now. The basengi people, in an attempt to gain control of some sort of genetic problem that was plaguing the breed ( I think it was kidney stones or something), was granted permission to take dogs directly out of Africa's jungle.....I think that they got the inital anomolie undercontrol, but wound up bringing in plasmatic enteritis...I am not 100% sure as I have not studied basengi pedigrees or history very much. Lastly, in the poodle. Back in the 70's the breed was plauged with PRA. By inbreeding, very heavily, in mutliple kennels, they were able to locate carriers, erradicate effecteds and reduce the problem....this same thing was done in collies in reguards to CEA. There are very few "debilitating" problems in reguards to collie eye. It still exsists, but mostly in a grade that does not impact the dog. Some of the worst dogs I have ever seen in reguard to temperament and health have been mix breeds. Not because they were mixes...but because their origins were not from well bred and selected animals. What you base your breeding program at its foundation is what will make the biggest impact.