This one's for you, CC

[BuddysMom]

[quote]As an organization, The Shiloh Project believes that until there are no more homeless and abandoned companion animals, there is no such thing as a "responsible breeder."[/quote]

From
[url]http://www.shilohproject.org/Lettertobreeders.htm[/url]

A letter to dog breeders

Dear Friends,

I know some of you really love dogs. When my dogs had health problems, I asked for advice, and you kindly gave me suggestions that probably saved their lives. So now I am asking you to help save some other dogs - the homeless ones. I know many of you are involved in breed rescue already, and that is wonderful. But please, for the sake of the dogs you love so much, do more. Breed rescue groups constantly turn away purebreds because of lack of foster homes, and these dogs end up at the animal shelter. Although purebreds are adopted in larger numbers than mixed breeds, many are still put to death. Elderly dogs and dogs with even minor health problems are particularly at risk.

I?d like to give you a few statistics to think about. I only recently learned them myself, so I wouldn?t be surprised if you were unfamiliar with them. You may have thought that show breeders don?t contribute all that many dogs to the population. Actually, according to a study by a respected university researcher, Gary Patronek, show breeders contribute about 1.8 million puppies to the U.S. dog population each year. He estimates that that is about 29% of all the new dogs born in the U.S., a much larger percentage than I had thought. You may also have thought that the dog overpopulation problem is so overwhelming that nothing you could do would have any effect. That's not true. First of all, thanks in part to aggressive spay/neuter campaigns over the past two decades, the number of dogs killed in shelters has dropped from about 7 million to
3-4 million per year. While 3-4 million dogs is still a large number, the number of homes available is much larger. Estimates of the number of households in which dogs are present range from 35 million to 58 million, and most of those have more than one dog. If more of these people would get their next dog from the shelter, there would be plenty of homes for these currently homeless dogs.

I know that you don't spay and neuter your healthiest dogs because you consider other breeders, and not yourselves, responsible for the surplus dog situation. It's true that 42% of new puppies are mixed breeds unintentionally born because their human guardians did not spay or neuter. Another 21% come from the backyard breeders that you frequently complain about. And 7-8% come from commercial breeders, many of which are filthy and cruel puppy mills that contribute the sickliest dogs to the population. So why am I addressing you? Because of all these groups, you care the most about dogs. You are not into dog breeding to make a buck. I don?t need to explain to you why dogs are great. You already know.

Many of you, when asked for your expert opinion, caution people to get dogs only from a "responsible" breeder. I understand what you mean by that term because I have researched it. You mean that you test your dogs' health for genetic defects and attempt to breed only healthy dogs. You provide AKC or other registration papers. You guarantee in writing the health of the puppies. You are selective about who you sell puppies to. You will take back a dog and try to find him a new home if the buyer can't keep him. But can you honestly say that none of the puppies you sell, and none of the puppies that those dogs have (when people disregard your advice to spay and neuter), have ever ended up unwanted? It's nice that you offer to take back dogs that you've sold, but so do rescue groups and shelters, and no one can truly guarantee that a dog with problems won't be killed when other alternatives have been exhausted.

You also have to understand that most people have absolutely no idea what you mean by "responsible" breeder, even though they may have heard the term. They go to the want ads, the pet store, the friend of a friend whose dog had puppies, thinking they have found "responsible" breeders because every breeder in the world says he is responsible. Even pet shops who get dogs from puppy mills offer AKC papers and may offer to take a puppy back, but they count on people falling in love with their sickly puppies and keeping them instead. In a recent study, the Massachusetts SPCA found the 39% of people who have dogs in their homes didn't even know there is such a thing as dog overpopulation. The fact that there are many dogs who desperately need homes should have been the first thing someone told them about when they first started to consider getting a dog, rather than "go to a responsible breeder." And when these people DO find out that there are homeless dogs at the local shelter, but experts like you tell them the BEST thing to do is go to a "responsible" breeder instead, that immediately and directly implies that there is something seriously wrong with all the dogs at the shelter. After all, you are advising people to let these dogs DIE rather than to give them a home. So maybe these dogs are mutts or they came from backyard breeders and aren?t perfect specimens of the breed. Do they deserve to die because of that? Most people want dogs for love and companionship, and mixed breeds are every bit as loving as purebreds.

I have often heard that show breeders breed dogs in order to improve the breed. You breed the very healthiest purebreds you can, but you are aware that reducing genetic diversity can, and usually does, cause genetic health problems. I know you want the breed you love to continue to exist and don't want to leave this in the hands of second-rate breeders, but first things first. The second-rate breeders are motivated by money and won't stop no matter what you do, but you, as an expert, could steer people away from them and toward shelters and purebred rescue groups. Dogs dying at the shelter and elsewhere need help, and they need it now. They like being with other dogs, but they don't care about the continuation of a breed. And as a side note, you might try to persuade those among you who have their dogs' ears cropped or tails docked or who breed dogs prone to major health problems that they should stop immediately. These people are not responsible; they are hurting their own dogs for purely selfish reasons. Maybe you can talk some sense into them.

Many people call the dogs in shelters unwanted. It's not true. I want them. Shelter workers who have to kill them want them. Rescue groups want them. All over the country, there are caring people who want these dogs, even the old and sick, even those who have behavioral problems because they were abused, poorly trained, or just born that way. We cry. We get angry at people like you for bringing more dogs into the world when others are dying. We help all the dogs we can, but our homes are full. Why don't you help us? We should be on the same side. But most of all, you are in such a wonderful position to help dogs. Your homes are set up to house larger numbers of dogs than most people?s homes. You?re expert trainers and could successfully retrain many dogs that other people can't, and you could also teach others so that they don't give up their dogs for easily solved behavioral problems. You feed your dogs the very highest quality food you can, and you could bring many sickly dogs back to glistening good health through proper diet alone. You know when to take a dog to the vet. You know about dog overpopulation and could educate others about it. Your reward would be in having dogs that love you devotedly and in knowing that without your intervention, they would have been killed.

Although, actually, when I talk about dogs being killed at the shelter, that doesn't really do justice to what these dogs are going through. Sometimes a painless death in the hands of a caring worker is the only kindness a dog has ever known. Some have spent their lives in pain, fear, and confusion, at the mercy of violent people who scream or beat them for reasons they can't possibly understand. Some were strays, going hungry, dodging cars, trying to find shelter. I think about them when my dogs and I are inside my cozy house during a blizzard or a thunderstorm. Some of these dogs spent their entire lives tied to a tree. Some were treated well for a while, and then something happened to the person who loved them. I know shelters are depressing places, not a place you like to visit and not something you like to think about as you bring healthy, happy little puppies into the world and proudly show them off. But dogs are very resilient. A few days out of the shelter and in a loving home, and most dogs will adjust very well. They deserve a chance for happiness. If it doesn't work out, the shelter will always take them back and wouldn't blame you for it. If experts like you can't help a particular dog, no one can.

You can rescue only purebreds if you like; there are plenty that need you. But I think you're missing out if you don't explore the joys of mixed breeds. If, for example, you love Golden Retrievers, try a Golden Retriever mix. They are as beautiful, loving, and enthusiastic as any pure Golden. Dogs are dogs, and if you love them, you'll find the traits you are looking for in many different breeds.

There is the problem of show rules that limit you to purebreds. Why be a slave to tradition, and a short tradition at that? Make your own rules. Organize dog shows where uniqueness rather than conformity is celebrated. Don't let the AKC tell you what to do. Dogs of any variety love to please people and learn commands. No one is asking you to give up any fun activities that you and your dogs enjoy. No one is asking you to give up being around dogs, thinking about dogs, talking about dogs. I understand that way of life, because I find it hard to hold a conversation without bringing up the subject of dogs. We're all dog people. We should work together.

The surplus dog crisis isn't a lost cause. There are not really "so many dogs and not enough homes." There are just a lot of people getting their dogs from someplace other than shelters and rescue groups. You can play a crucial part in solving this problem, if you're willing to. Please participate more in breed rescue, and help the dogs that are already here, needing you, rather than bringing new ones into the world. It's really not that difficult.

Sincerely,

A Dog Lover

[pyrless]

This is all well and good, and I have read the other posts as well. I do not disagree that the plight of homeless animals in shelters is appalling by their sheer numbers alone, made worse by the fact that we (the human race) put them there and the unspeakable cruelty that some have endured.

However, while I love my Elkie/Collie cross and Pom more than you know, I can only say with certainty that I will always have a Great Pyr in my future. Their temperament suits mine ideally, and I like to have a big guard dog because I am home alone quite a bit. I know within reason what I can expect from an adult Pyr in regards to size, personality, trainability and the like. This is not a modern phenomenon. We created breeds to do specific things going back thousands of years.

The efforts of the rescue community should be rewarded, but so too should the efforts of ethical breeders of pure bred dogs.

IMHO, as well, one should leave the speculations about genetics to scientists and breed experts.

[BuddysMom]

[quote name='pyrless']This is all well and good, and I have read the other posts as well. I do not disagree that the plight of homeless animals in shelters is appalling by their sheer numbers alone, made worse by the fact that we (the human race) put them there and the unspeakable cruelty that some have endured.

However, while I love my Elkie/Collie cross and Pom more than you know, I can only say with certainty that I will always have a Great Pyr in my future. Their temperament suits mine ideally, and I like to have a big guard dog because I am home alone quite a bit. I know within reason what I can expect from an adult Pyr in regards to size, personality, trainability and the like. This is not a modern phenomenon. We created breeds to do specific things going back thousands of years.

The efforts of the rescue community should be rewarded, but so too should the efforts of ethical breeders of pure bred dogs.

IMHO, as well, one should leave the speculations about genetics to scientists and breed experts.[/quote]

Not saying I agree with the author of the above 100 percent but I wanted to put it out there bacause they make some darn good points.

I don't apologize for bringing up what I have read about genetics, or asking questions of other dogoers, "scientists" and "breed experts" among you. I have read in many, many places that mutts have a better hand genetically than purebreds but I do not know the quality of these sources, frankly because they were on the internet with no "Author's Name, DVM" at the bottom. So I continue to ask.

[pyrless]

It's cool, Buddysmom! :wink:
I was not trying to insinuate that I was a breed expert or scientist by any means, I know my breed, but others mainly in a cursory manner.
I think health also depends on the hardiness of the dog in general, pure or mutt, ie, don't you think a Shepherd/Husky mix stands a better chance than a Pug/Bulldog mix? I dunno.
I think the most important thing, while both sides of this argument have excellent, valid points, that we love and treat our dogs with the respect they deserve and practice what we preach. Purebred or mutt, until society at large stops thinking of dogs as "property" and '"disposable", the shelter problem will continue.
Thanks for posting that article, it was interesting and did get me thinking.

[BuddysMom]

[quote name='pyrless']It's cool, Buddysmom! :wink:
I was not trying to insinuate that I was a breed expert or scientist by any means, I know my breed, but others mainly in a cursory manner.
I think health also depends on the hardiness of the dog in general, pure or mutt, ie, don't you think a Shepherd/Husky mix stands a better chance than a Pug/Bulldog mix? I dunno.
I think the most important thing, while both sides of this argument have excellent, valid points, that we love and treat our dogs with the respect they deserve and practice what we preach. Purebred or mutt, until society at large stops thinking of dogs as "property" and '"disposable", the shelter problem will continue.
Thanks for posting that article, it was interesting and did get me thinking.[/quote]

Absolutely agreed 100 percent. :fadein:

[__crazy_canine__]

Thanks for posting that BM! Glad someone out there agrees.

And thats all Im going to say since I feel like everyones going to go against what I say, just like in the other thread.

[imported_Irena]

thanx for putting this letter here he is great, and well righten
now a Q : can i take hom and put as he is in other furums , i know few that can learn a lot from this breeder

[bk_blue]

[quote name='__crazy_canine__']And thats all Im going to say since I feel like everyones going to go against what I say, just like in the other thread.[/quote]

Well, it's a public forum and everyone is entitled to an opinion. Whether or not it concurs with your own, and whether you can handle disagreement, is another matter entirely.

For the record, I agree with pyrless.

[__crazy_canine__]

BK, I already know that, and thats exactly what Im talking about... :roll:

[bk_blue]

so... what is the problem then?

[__crazy_canine__]

omg... nothing... nevermind

:drinking: :drinking: :drinking:

[courtnek]

to some extent I agree, but not to completely ban the breedingof dogs. I have said this many times before, but some of the newer members may not have seen it.

there is the PAWS bill already on the table to try to put a stop to BYB's and excessivie breeding, by requiring inspections and I believe licensing.

I have said all along that ALL breeders should be licensed. the amount of the license would depend on the output. the PAWS bill limits breeders to so many litters or so many puppies a year that can be sold.
I think the limits are high, myself, but its a place to start.

I would add to that....and this is where I always get flamed, so zipping up the flak suit now....

NO ONE breeds without a license. that license requires them to prove that the health certs have been done, the breeding is done for show, or to better the breed, and the "gene pool" the breeding is done from is genetically wide enough to reduce the risk of genetic defects. I ama firm believer in NOT in- and line-breeding. you can only rein the gene pool in so far before it becomes unviable. will this change the appearance of the dog in question? yes, definitely...is that a bad thing? NO, not IMO. they bred labs with GR heads for so long it was making me sick. Labs should have battering ram heads, and an otter tail that can clear a coffee table in a single sweep.

second, if you are not a licensed breeder, or showing the dog, than it MUST be spayed/neutered. this would not be as hard to track as everyone thinks. rabies shots are tracked here by the county. the vet is required to fill out a form showing the shots have been done, and send it to the county. you will lose your dog if you dont comply. same could be done for neutering. they wont catch everyone, I know, but the majority
of people do take their dogs to the vet for shots and such.

will people like it? maybe not, but I really dont care. there is no reason to have an unneutered dog unless you intend to show it (and I have issues with that as well) or are a licensed breeder. I dont want to hear ANY of the crap about "just one litter will be good for her..." or "I want to teach my kids the miracle of birth...." (its all on video. go buy one. its cheaper than the litter you want to have).

I think if this could be enforced, you'd see a lot less animals in shelters. the BYB's would be gone, from regulation, or forced to put up or shut up about their litters.

the oopps births would be gone, if all dogs had to be done. there will always be shelters, and pups in need. this wont stop the stupid from giving up their St. Bernard because they had NO IDEA it would end up at 200 lbs.....

but I think it would put quite a dent in the problem...

8)

[__crazy_canine__]

I like the idea Court.

I agree it wouldnt [i]solve[/i] the problem but make a dent, yeah. :)

[ESSlover]

[quote name='courtnek']to some extent I agree, but not to completely ban the breedingof dogs. I have said this many times before, but some of the newer members may not have seen it.

there is the PAWS bill already on the table to try to put a stop to BYB's and excessivie breeding, by requiring inspections and I believe licensing.

I have said all along that ALL breeders should be licensed. the amount of the license would depend on the output. the PAWS bill limits breeders to so many litters or so many puppies a year that can be sold.
I think the limits are high, myself, but its a place to start.

I would add to that....and this is where I always get flamed, so zipping up the flak suit now....

NO ONE breeds without a license. that license requires them to prove that the health certs have been done, the breeding is done for show, or to better the breed, and the "gene pool" the breeding is done from is genetically wide enough to reduce the risk of genetic defects. I ama firm believer in NOT in- and line-breeding. you can only rein the gene pool in so far before it becomes unviable. will this change the appearance of the dog in question? yes, definitely...is that a bad thing? NO, not IMO. they bred labs with GR heads for so long it was making me sick. Labs should have battering ram heads, and an otter tail that can clear a coffee table in a single sweep.

second, if you are not a licensed breeder, or showing the dog, than it MUST be spayed/neutered. this would not be as hard to track as everyone thinks. rabies shots are tracked here by the county. the vet is required to fill out a form showing the shots have been done, and send it to the county. you will lose your dog if you dont comply. same could be done for neutering. they wont catch everyone, I know, but the majority
of people do take their dogs to the vet for shots and such.

will people like it? maybe not, but I really dont care. there is no reason to have an unneutered dog unless you intend to show it (and I have issues with that as well) or are a licensed breeder. I dont want to hear ANY of the crap about "just one litter will be good for her..." or "I want to teach my kids the miracle of birth...." (its all on video. go buy one. its cheaper than the litter you want to have).

I think if this could be enforced, you'd see a lot less animals in shelters. the BYB's would be gone, from regulation, or forced to put up or shut up about their litters.

the oopps births would be gone, if all dogs had to be done. there will always be shelters, and pups in need. this wont stop the stupid from giving up their St. Bernard because they had NO IDEA it would end up at 200 lbs.....

but I think it would put quite a dent in the problem...

8)[/quote]

Yeah.. what she said. :lol:

[bk_blue]

[quote name='__crazy_canine__']omg... nothing... nevermind

:drinking: :drinking: :drinking:[/quote]

That's a response, is it?

[BuddysMom]

[quote name='K']I firmly believe that [b]all [/b]cats should be fixed ..and have the notch taken out of thier ear to prove they are fixed...ALL of them not just ferals and strays...[/quote]

Then, no more cats in the world?

[BuddysMom]

Oh yes then I absolutely agree.

[__crazy_canine__]

BK, WTF is your problem?!? :o :evil: :roll:
All I did was say I wasnt going to say anymore than I did because I didnt feel like arguing with anybody, but what do you do, start one! :x :roll:

Im really sick of you picking fights with people.

[ESSlover]

[quote name='__crazy_canine__']BK, WTF is your problem?!? :o :evil: :roll:
All I did was say I wasnt going to say anymore than I did because I didnt feel like arguing with anybody, but what do you do, start one! :x :roll:

Im really sick of you picking fights with people.[/quote]

Just one little thing... she probably replied the way she did because the way you typed it made it come out sounding snobby-ish.. Its hard to change how someone types into how they feel. :wink:

[bk_blue]

[quote name='__crazy_canine__']BK, WTF is your problem?!? :o :evil: :roll:
All I did was say I wasnt going to say anymore than I did because I didnt feel like arguing with anybody, but what do you do, start one! :x :roll:

Im really sick of you picking fights with people.[/quote]

Picking a fight? All I'm asking you- I'll put it into plain English- is why you feel the need to become so defensive and upset when people disagree with you on a *public* forum. Your above quote is illustrative of this.

If you feel that I am picking a fight, that is your problem. I'm just asking you a question which you have thus far refused to answer. No need to get snarky. :wink:

[Lucky Chaos]

[quote name='K'][quote]will people like it? maybe not, but I really dont care.[/quote]

what she said...and shes right...I dont care what people think either...the good of the pets is at stake...I say pats becuse I firmly believe that [b]all [/b]cats should be fixed ..and have the notch taken out of thier ear to prove they are fixed...ALL of them not just ferals and strays...[/quote]

I don't want a notch in my cats ear thanks. :lol: But then again they're indoor cats anyway.

[__crazy_canine__]

Eh sorry BK, I just dont see the point in trying to explain myself sometimes. Maybe I took your posts wrong, but you sounded like a complete b*tch :lol: Then again maybe you took mine wrong and I sounded like one too. (I know I did on that last one)

My problem is I didnt want to get into anything and I feel like you said something to me just because of that reason. :-? I dont have a problem with people disagreeing with me BTW.

Im sorry if my posts came out "snobby," I certainly didnt mean for them to be.

[__crazy_canine__]

K, if pet cats have vet records of being spayed/neutered why would they need a notch in their ear?

[Horsefeathers!]

Not only that, but in the case of cats who are wild or feral or escaped, it would prevent the same cat from being picked up twice and operated on. It's often hard to see a spay scar, but a notch (or tatoo) is plainly visible.

[__crazy_canine__]

What if people put their own tattoo or notch and dont have it spayed or neutered? Dont you think peopole will do that if they want to breed them badly enough?