Im more and more disappointed all the time

[ObedienceGrrl]

Haaa haaa haaa.....

This shyt is better then the movie!

Crazy psycho. This is some funny shyt.

Guess some people have a ton of time on their hands when they are backyard breeders and don't give a shyt about their dogs and 12 litters per year. I'd have a ton of time too if all my dogs were outside in kennels with no human interaction.

How 'bout you all?

[courtnek]

the easiest way to get rid of her, is to not respond...hard, I know....

8)

I dont have a problem with GOOD breeders...to me, you dont appear to be one.so hopefully this thread will end now, with admins blessing, and you will GO AWAY...

(hint hint hint...)

8)

[bk_blue]

Hey K!

8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8)

These sunglasses carry TROLL REFLECTING POWERS. A few of 8) will defend us from the most persistent troll!!

8)

[Guest Anonymous]

Tammy and BM... Thank you. I appreciate your words.

K... You are awesome.
:ylsuper:
8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8)

[BuddysMom]

:lol: jackturds ... good one Ravyn.

[Lokipups]

[quote]As long as no laws are broken and the dogs are well treated, it is none of anybody’s business[/quote]

Wrong, it becomes my business because you cannot be bothered to keep track of your dogs, and my rescue, along with hundreds of others, has to clean up after you and the rest of the "breeders" who are of your caliber :x.

[__crazy_canine__]

Shara I love pits but I could live without purebreds... actually I cant say that I ever have met a purebred pit bull anyway.

I dont exactly blame the responsible breeders for the shelters overpop. problem but I dont think their helping. I do blame the irresponsible ones though.

I give up on trying to explain my opinion. Bottom line is what I want will never happen. Yes, education is the only realistic idea to solve this problem.

I will never ever agree with breeding though. Im more accepting of responsible breeders but nothing more than that.

Ugh, humans are pure evil. Its all our fault animals suffer so much.

[BuddysMom]

[quote name='Michele'][quote]Ugh, humans are pure evil. Its all our fault animals suffer so much.
[/quote]


this is very true......humans are pure evil.....[/quote]

Totally disagreeing with both of you here. There is some mix of good and evil in all, we all fall somewhere on the continuum, IMHO.

But it is how we treat animals, that is the best measure of the good or evil within.

[Lucky Chaos]

[quote]I don't see working a breed that is bred for conformation and companionship a priority. [/quote]

Sorry Kiwi, but why the hell not? Shouldnt you want to prove your dogs can do more than sit on the couch and look pretty in a show ring? No matter what they were bred for, I think dogs should have a working title before being bred. Agility or weight pull isn't technically working, but they PROVE something, unlike show titles (IMO).

My take on it is if you want a companion dog, go to the shelter. If you want a dog that can WORK, has the genes, to work, then go to a responsible breeder. The only reason I'm going to a breeder for my next dog is because i want a strictly working dog. If someone would find me a French Ring dog in a rescue, that'd be great. But it does not happen that often. Maybe some of you have no need for purebreds, but others like me like to see the true working dog of old preserved. Breeds excisted long before kennel clubs. They may have just been types, but hundreds of years ago those collie type dogs herding sheep in scotland WERE border collies. The dogs used in large game hunting, bull baiting and so on were bulldogs, no doubt. They didn't have a standard, no need. But they were breeds. Showing dogs ruins the breed, working preserves it. Responsible breeders that preserve what their breed was truely bred for are not the problem. People who buy from them don't want just a companion, they want true working dogs, something that is scarely found in a shelter. Most of these breeders produce litters with a title on each and every puppy, for good reason. getting rid of purebreds and good breeders will NOT stop the overpopulation problem, all it will do is leave us with dogs withotu a purpose riddled with health problems.

[BuddysMom]

[quote name='Lucky Chaos']getting rid of purebreds and good breeders will NOT stop the overpopulation problem, all it will do is leave us with dogs withotu a purpose riddled with health problems.[/quote]

I respect and pretty much agree with what you said up until here LC. Mutts are not riddled with health problems to my knowledge, that would be poorly bred "purebreds".

Out of curiosity what is a French Ring dog?

[Lucky Chaos]

[quote name='BuddysMom'][quote name='Lucky Chaos']getting rid of purebreds and good breeders will NOT stop the overpopulation problem, all it will do is leave us with dogs withotu a purpose riddled with health problems.[/quote]

I respect and pretty much agree with what you said up until here LC. Mutts are not riddled with health problems to my knowledge, that would be poorly bred "purebreds".

Out of curiosity what is a French Ring dog?[/quote]

Sorry, I should have clarified. Mutts don't have health problems more than any other badly bred dog, but if there's no purebred, no health testing then wouldn't health problems like Hip Dysplasia incline? If no one bothered to test, no one would know. I adore mutts, any companion dog I get in the future WILL be a rescue mixed breed.

French Ring (Ring Sport) is similar to Schutzhund, except without the tracking part. The jumps in french ring are also usually laregr and more challenging, which is why you see smaller dogs like Belgian Malinois in the sport rather than larger dogs like GSD's and rotties. The emphasis in FR is more put on getting the job done, unlike Schh which is more strict on how the job is done.

Check out the North American Ring Association if you want to learn more. [url]http://www.ringsport.org/[/url] :D Also here for the exact excercises dogs have to learn to to earn its FRIII title. [url]http://members.aol.com/malndobe/frring.htm[/url]

[BuddysMom]

LC first of all thank you for the Ring Sport info. How utterly cool. It sounds extremely challenging and rewarding.

[quote name='Lucky Chaos']Mutts don't have health problems more than any other badly bred dog,[/quote]

Mutts are not badly bred dogs. They are the domesticated dog in its natural state, the "village dog". They are much healthier than badly bred dogs and to my knowledge healthier than many "responsibly" bred dogs.

[quote] but if there's no purebred, no health testing then wouldn't health problems like Hip Dysplasia incline? If no one bothered to test, no one would know.[/quote]

I don't get this at all. It was my understanding that human intervention (the creation of purebreds, i.e. linebreeding in other words forced incest) caused the problems like hip dysplasia (?)

[Lucky Chaos]

I'm not talking about the village dog, the true "purebred mutt" from whenever ago. I mean mutts like my border collie/retriever mix, who had purebred parents. If my dogs retriever dad had HD, and his mom had Collie Eye, isn't there a great chance that those traits will be passed to the offpsring? No different than if they were both purebred. Not many true mutts exist today, at least in the US and Canada. I bet 99% are from purebred parents at least in 3-4 generations. Maybe if you go to Africa, you'll find lots of purebred mutts. nd I;'m sure many of them have dieseases too, genetic and otherwise that they pass on.

Linebreeding did not cause HD. Wolves can and do have it, but wild wolves arn't going to live long enough to pass down their traits, only the healthiest and strongest (the Alpha wolves) get to breed. Linebreeding also exists in the wild, Its been proven. If a daughter of the Alpha's kills or drives off her mother, she will breed with her father. Wolf packs usually consist of all related wolves, there's no way they could be totally scatterbred. Some wolves once they reach maturity do go seek new unrelated mates, most stay with the pack. Some of those end up Alpha, and probably end up mating with related wolves. But any born with genetic diseases simply do not survive.

Even if we just left our purebred to mix and become the "purebred mutt" again, many have HD which WILL be passed on to future generations eventually. It won't correct itself either, the only way to get rid of it would be to screen parents for genetic disorders and not breed the ones that do.

[BuddysMom]

LC, thanks for the info on HD and wolf behavior. That is an education for me. I stand corrected!

[quote name='Lucky Chaos']I mean mutts like my border collie/retriever mix, who had purebred parents. If my dogs retriever dad had HD, and his mom had Collie Eye, isn't there a great chance that those traits will be passed to the offpsring?[/quote]

My educated "guess" is No. Again I could be wrong but I think that in a breed mixing situation Nature attempts to express the most positive traits and screen out the most negative traits, and the more breeds being mixed together the more positive raw material there is to work with, that is why I believe that mutts, whether true village dogs or mixed breed, are generally healthier than purebreds. The exception is a responsibly bred purebred because the human genetic screening would be done.

[pyrless]

right on LC!

[Lucky Chaos]

[quote name='BuddysMom']LC, thanks for the info on HD and wolf behavior. That is an education for me. I stand corrected!

[quote name='Lucky Chaos']I mean mutts like my border collie/retriever mix, who had purebred parents. If my dogs retriever dad had HD, and his mom had Collie Eye, isn't there a great chance that those traits will be passed to the offpsring?[/quote]

My educated "guess" is No. Again I could be wrong but I think that in a breed mixing situation Nature attempts to express the most positive traits and screen out the most negative traits, and the more breeds being mixed together the more positive raw material there is to work with, that is why I believe that mutts, whether true village dogs or mixed breed, are generally healthier than purebreds. The exception is a responsibly bred purebred because the human genetic screening would be done.[/quote]

Nature really doesn't care what traits it passes on. Its pretty much luck of the draw. yes, maybe HD could be culled in future generations but no matter what dog one with HD is bred with, chances are the puppies will have it.

Lets says dogs were wild. My mixed breeds parents had HD. 4 out of 8 or so pups had it, those pups probably wouldn't live long enough to pass it on. The healthy ones bred with other healthy HD free dogs, and less pups had it but 2 out of 6 pups did. Those died, and the 4 pups left bred with 4 other HD free dogs. The resulting genetation would have less of a chance of HD. But, since their great grandparents DID have it, its very possible it could crop up in generations later.

While not a health problem, I think this is something worth pointing out.

I'm Topsy Turvy Du Dantero. A long haired malinois (in other countries he's be considered a turvuren)

[img]http://members.aol.com/dantero3/topsy2.jpg[/img]

His parents, Zara v.d. Berlex-Hoeve - Hips, elbows x-rayed in Europe, OFA fair and Rytmo des Deux Pottois - FRIII, '96 NARA Champion, OFA Good, eyes normal were both short haired.

[img]http://members.aol.com/dantero1/zara.jpg[/img]

[img]http://www.rugpalnorth.com/videos/raptor_stand3.jpg[/img]

Since both of them carried the long haired gene, while not long haired themselves passed it on to their litter. Only one pup of the litter (I think) was long haired. So it goes to show that traits that wouldn't show up in the parents (and health problems like HD) can and do show up in litters.

You won't be able to completely eliminate it from a line just by natural culling. Even dogs with HD often do live normal lives. Fo instance, many APBT breeders don't bother to health test their dogs because "they run and play fine, and we do weight pull ect." Well APBT are darn tough dogs, a dog with minor to moderate HD could act like a totally normal dog, while having it themselves. They then breed and pass it on to pups. I'm sure this would go for the purebred mutt too, they could live with HD and pass it on. The only TRUE way to rid dogs of genetic dieseases is to test them.

[BuddysMom]

I still must state my belief, based on my research and knowledge, that mutts have fewer health problems than purebreds in general.

Would anyone else care to jump in here?

LC maybe we have to agree to disagree on this point. :wink:

[Guest Anonymous]

I have purebred APBTs. Inbred, linebred, scatterbred... and have no problems with health AT ALL. I dont have a single dog with HD.

The thing with mutts.... You cant really say its nature doing the breeding here. Mutts dont go around and say "that bitch looks like she has HD so Im gonna pass her up". Males will breed any bitch in heat, regardless of her health.
I dont really believe that mutts are more healthy than a well bred purebred dog. Probably moreso than a bybs dogs but not more than a responsible breeders dogs.

[DogPaddle]

[quote] Nature attempts to express the most positive traits[/quote]

I am simplifying here so any geneticists don't freak out, its just to make things simple:

There are dominant, recessive and incompletely dominant/recessive traits. Dominant traits are those that, when genes get mixed, are going to be expressed in the offspring. Recessive genes are different. You have to have the same recessive trait from both parents for it to be passed on to offspring. When both parents posses the recessive trait there is an excellent chance that the offspring will have, usually 75% but it varies. Incomplete traits are ones that allow something like averaging. For a very simple example - Mom has red hair, dad had blonde hair, offspring has strawberry blonde hair.

This [url=http://www.koshkacats.com/genetics/]page[/url] has some decent explanation of genetics, see the charts, they make it easier.

"Nature" is not a concious participant in the process, trying to get the best results. Bad genes are bad genes and by the rules of genetics they get passed on - it's like math.

[Lucky Chaos]

[quote name='Hmmmm']I have purebred APBTs. Inbred, linebred, scatterbred... and have no problems with health AT ALL. I dont have a single dog with HD.[/quote]

Sorry, but I really have to ask. How do you know? Unless you test hips?

[quote]LC maybe we have to agree to disagree on this point.[/quote]

Sure thing. :)

[Guest Anonymous]

You cant prove a dog the way I do unless it is [u]completely[/u] healthy.
[quote]Sorry, but I really have to ask. How do you know? Unless you test hips?[/quote]
My cousin is a vet, as I have said before, and does everything I need done.

[Lucky Chaos]

I'm very glad you do. Responsible APBT breeders that health test seem to be in extremely short supply right now. I would LOVE to actually to find a reputable breeder that health tests and has dogs that can WORK. Not prance around a show ring.

[courtnek]

ok I'm feeling feisty, so I will jump in and tick EVERYBODY OFF! (sorry K)

whether the dog is purebred, crossbred, or just a plain Heinz 57 is irrelevant to health. how the pups turn out depends, GENETICALLY, on the health of the parents. many mixes get HD..many get vision issues, hearing issues...not because they are purebred, or because they are mixes, but because those genes existed in the parents gene pool.

people think mixes are healthier, I disagree. I think the diseases are more a media thing, on purebreds. and to breeders. I think we hear more about them in PB's....because the breeders want those traits to go away. I can understand that. But there are many mixes with same issues. unfortunately, the owners dont "report them" (who would they report them to?) and either pay to get the problems corrected,live with it, or euthanize the dog.


genetically, they're all the same. the are Canis Familiaris....domesticated dogs.

in the wolf pack, these problems dont exist, because "less capable" animals die, and are allowed to, or killed, by the pack, to prevent these issues from being genetically carried on. Life in the real world is much harsher than life in ours, as far as Canis breeding goes. the pack has no use for an animal with HD. it cant hunt, it cant help support the pack...

and wolves are ALL mixed breeds.


8)

[Guest Anonymous]

[quote name='Lucky Chaos']I'm very glad you do. Responsible APBT breeders that health test seem to be in extremely short supply right now. I would LOVE to actually to find a reputable breeder that health tests and has dogs that can WORK. Not prance around a show ring.[/quote]

I know a lot of APBT breeders dont. I think alot of them seem to think its not necessary since it isnt a HUGE problem for the breed. I honestly dont know if I would do it if I didnt have my cousin. He's always been there, since day one, so I really dont know. I would like to think I would.

About the genetics of wolves and what not... I dont really know alot about the scientific side of things but I do know HD and other health issues arent always noticable. A dog can carry it and not ever be affected by it. So, I know wolves and wild dogs weed out the weak but that doesnt say Hd and other problems dont exist in their lineage.

[quote]people think mixes are healthier, I disagree. I think the diseases are more a media thing, on purebreds. and to breeders. I think we hear more about them in PB's....because the breeders want those traits to go away. I can understand that. But there are many mixes with same issues. unfortunately, the owners dont "report them" (who would they report them to?) and either pay to get the problems corrected,live with it, or euthanize the dog.[/quote]
Nice post.

[__crazy_canine__]

[quote name='Lucky Chaos'][quote]I don't see working a breed that is bred for conformation and companionship a priority. [/quote]

Sorry Kiwi, but why the h*** not? Shouldnt you want to prove your dogs can do more than sit on the couch and look pretty in a show ring? No matter what they were bred for, I think dogs should have a working title before being bred. Agility or weight pull isn't technically working, but they PROVE something, unlike show titles (IMO).

My take on it is if you want a companion dog, go to the shelter. If you want a dog that can WORK, has the genes, to work, then go to a responsible breeder. [/quote]

Thats exactly what I said/think/or wanted to say :lol: :wink:

Good post court :D