Is there any hope?

[abker17]

Many of you saw my thread in the Pictures section about the border collie Heinrich I was hoping to adopt. (Little background on Heinrich; He was found as a stray, is only 6 months old, and I can't really tell whether he's a more dominant dog or submissive. He's really still in the process of coming out of his shell.) I'll go ahead and reiterate what happened when Abby and Heinrich met to see if they would get along;

We brought Abby out to the SPCA and let them meet in the parking lot to begin with. They both sniffed each other over and Abby lost interest pretty quickly. She basically didn't seem to want anything to do with Heinrich. He wanted to play, and jumped on her back at one point, and she turned around and growled at him, then lost interest again. Usually if another dog initiates play Abby will go along with it. I was really surprised she was just ignoring Heinrich like she did. Usually she'll try to "assert her dominance" over the other dog or at least play.
After this first little meeting we took the dogs to the enclosed courtyard in the middle of the shelter. No other dogs were around, so there were no distractions. We kept Heinrich on leash and let Abby off. Again, she totally ignored him. One of the shelter workers supervised and said Abby is just a very dominant female (which I already knew) and doesn't want to be messed with. Which for the most part is also true, she likes to play somtimes, but if she's not in the mood then no other dogs better mess with her. :-? The worker also said she thought it was going to be very hard for us to bring ANY other dog into Abby's household.

But I wanted to get a second opinion. Is there anything I can do to get Abby to be more accepting (per say) of bringing another dog into our life? Should I just give up now, is there no hope of getting another dog? There's been no other interest in Heinrich, would it be too much of a risk to adopt him when Abby wasn't interested in him at their meeting? (I'm grasping at straws here I know, but I really, really liked that dog.)

I have the money, the time, and the room for another dog. With so many being put to sleep simply because there aren't enough homes I feel like if I have the space there's no reason why I shouldn't be providing a home to a dog who might not otherwise get one.
But the dog's best interests have to come first too. And while I wouldn't mind shuffling dogs around and putting up baby gates to seperate rooms etc, my parents don't want to deal with it. The dogs must be able to at the very least tolerate each other. My mom is here all day but she doesn't know much about dogs and I can't have them getting into a fight when it's just her here alone with him.

I also should mention a little background on Abby for those who don't know; She's 4 years old, I've had her since she was 4 months after we found her as a stray. She's been my constant companion and tends to get jealous if she's not the center of attention. From what I've observed she really doesn't like dogs that are larger than her, but seems to get along for the most part with smaller dogs. She's a border collie mix (My guess is Akita as well, from her personality) and around 18" at the shoulder. (Heinrich was almost the same size, maybe a bit smaller.)

Any opinions or advice would really be appreciated, I'm sorry this post is so long.

[courtnek]

it can be done, with forethought and training. are you available during the day to keep an eye on things? NILIF, of course, for both dogs. If not then keep them seperated when you're not home, until they have worked out the rules on their own. If Abby is that dominant, Heinrich may just simply accept it and peace will descend on its own.

it does require watching, but NO dog is more "bitchy" then Free about the dominance thing. and she adjusted to both a male dog larger than her, and now Laurel. and 2 cats. so it can be done

8)

[__crazy_canine__]

Id try what DO says... although Im not sure if the shelter would let you do that or not.

If you really want him that bad but Abby still wont tolerate him, then theres always the crate and rotate option. I know someone who has four dogs who does that because one of her pits doesnt get along with her chow. All the dogs are happy that way even though a lot of people think its mean to to it.

[abker17]

DO and Courtnek- thank you so much for your input and giving me hope. I was really doubting whether this could work.

[quote]it can be done, with forethought and training. are you available during the day to keep an eye on things?[/quote]

I am available all day everyday until school starts up again at the end of August. I think that would be enough time for both dogs to adjust. :)

DO, the thing I'm kind of worried about letting them work it out on their own is (from the fights I've seen) Abby doesn't stop. She doesn't just get up and walk away once Cracker has submitted (is that the right word?) to her. She keeps going, and it's incredibly scary to watch. Even when Cracker is on her belly just trying to get away Abby keeps going. I have NEVER seen her back away from a fight once it was started. How do I know when to say that's enough if the whole time I feel like Abby's fighting "to the death"? I'm not against letting them work it out on their own, I just don't want any of the dogs to be injured.

[quote]Id try what DO says... although Im not sure if the shelter would let you do that or not. [/quote]

That's the thing I'm not sure of either. They're a dog pound, and as far as I know they don't do "adoption pending" sort of things where the animal comes to live with you for awhile to see if it will work.

[quote]If you really want him that bad but Abby still wont tolerate him, then theres always the crate and rotate option.[/quote]

I want him badly, but that comes second. Heinrich's best interests come first, as well as any other dog we consider adopting.
And again I don't think my parents would go for the rotating dogs option. Abby is a pretty mellow dog but Heinrich is almost pure border collie, and although he's not as high strung as some I wouldn't feel like it was fair to confine him in one room or a crate while I'm at school. But thanks for your input. :)

[imported_Kat]

Ok problems like dominance can be overcome, but you will not know unless you try it in the surroundings where the dogs will be. If you do try, you are going to have to be extremely strong and strict with all the dogs so that they know that you will not tolerate pissing around and misbehaviour of whos trying to prove top dog. It has to be you that is controlling everything and they have to know that through your actions, which is where the whole NILIF concept comes from.

Now more specifically Heinrich is a border collie and even though he is older nad past the main puppy stage, he is still going to be as hyper and demanding for attention and work. I bet thats why his previous owner just released him because he was too much of a handful...usual story unfortunately. BC's are not just like any other dog and they need that one on one attention to keep their motivation levels satisfied. Trying to physically tire a bc is mission impossible but you can attempt to [i]mentally [/i]tire a bc, and that takes time and effort. Having a bc is total committment. Its like having a small child and you must make sure that you are mentally ready for that and your family also as you still live at home. Kes is a bundle of energy and she wears me out. She truly does and I go to bed some nights totally exhausted, but thats a collie for you! They are just like the equivalent of having a 3 year old child and they don't mentally mature until about 4/5 years of age. Training is my life line! If Kes didnt have training and was with people who couldn't handle her she would be in a home right now. i know that for sure, but shes my baby and i love her and its a learning process for us both.

You just won't know until you try. I don't know what Heinrich is like at all so I can't cast speculation on what will happen. Keep us updated :wink:

[abker17]

Thanks for your reply Kat. I do think going on NILIF would be a good idea and could help.

As for the BC, I'm aware of how demanding they are. From the time I've spent with Heinrich though he seems more on the mellow side, and I think the amount of exercise I give Abby will be enough for him. (That's including walks, agility, and training time.) If it's not then of course I will step it up and do what need be to fulfill his needs.
I think my family could also participate in helping exercise him.

But we'll just have to see, I have to bring this up to my parents again, as I had just started re-thinking it and they probably thought I had given up on him. :P

[Canis erectus]

DO and Courtnek gave you sound advise. I'd also like to add that things would probably go far more smoothly if Heinrich were a submissive dog. You might want to observe his personality for awhile before having your heart set on him.

[Malamum]

[quote]would it be too much of a risk to adopt him when Abby wasn't interested in him at their meeting?[/quote]

Abker, I don’t really have time to read all the other reply’s at the moment but I just wanted to share our experience of bringing Kira into our home.

Indy is a very dominate male, so much so that he can’t go to dogs parks and I even have to watch which dogs I put him next to at training classes.

When Indy and Kira first set eyes on each other they both went off at each other barking and growling etc and acting like they wanted to kill each other. It actually scared the crap out of the lady that was trying to find a new home for her. We kept them within about 10 meters of each other for about an hour or so until they were used to each others presence. After a few hours we could have them on leash walking next to each other, sniffing the same trees, drinking out of the same tap etc.

We have now had Kira for over a year and for the most part they get along. They are not the types to cuddle to each other but they do play a lot together and if put in a situation where they are able to be off leash they stick together like glue. They do fight from time to time but it seems to be more noise than action.

So my point is that if indifference is the main issue then I’m sure you can work it out. However I don’t want to influence your decision, I just wanted to share my example to show that a less than ideal initial meeting can result in two dogs being able to co-exist quite happily.

[Bubblezzz]

Do you guys believe that some dogs just "click", while others don't or just can't?

Like us, they may have preferences. :-? I'm saying this because this is what I *think* I'm experiencing at home. Cosmic (mine) just isn't interested in my foster girl, Twyce. He can be extremely playful with many other dogs (yes, even in my home) but Twyce, he mostly ignores. :-? :P

Now my question would be, how prepared are you to have to go through the entire bag of tricks: NILIF rules, crating, separation etc. to try and get your 2 dogs to do more than get along and actually start to [i]like[/i] each other? Can you take having to admit defeat in the end? Because that is a possibility - you may have to live with 2 dogs who don't interact with each other at all and just "co-exist". :P

[DogPaddle]

Just a little trick that has worked for me with our revolving door of animals:
Just before a new critter comes into the home, I start ignoring all the resident pets and they get no treats. When the new guy comes in I pretty much ignore him/her (not completely of course but no extra attention, they're busy settling in and checking things out anyway.) However, I give the tenured residents extra love and attention everytime they are in the same room as the new guy, they closer they are the more love they get. They also get special meals for at least a week. This seems to work some because Zaphod is touchy with critters outside the home but once they are inside the home, even if he hasn't met them, they are his buddy, he is the same way with people - sort of an anti-watch dog.

[courtnek]

they may NEVER like each other..if they tolerate each other, you're ahead of the ball game. some never click, but they do learn to tolerate.

mine dont click...but they will run around outside together, although they dont play. Free is stuck on herself, but missed Alex.I think she just acts like a bitch cuz she doesnt want to lose her "place"...not like Laurelwould take it...

:lol:

[abker17]

[quote]I'd also like to add that things would probably go far more smoothly if Heinrich were a submissive dog. You might want to observe his personality for awhile before having your heart set on him.[/quote]

I've been watching how he acts around me and he almost always sits when I pet him, and likes to roll on his belly. I'm not sure if this is a sign of submission or not though, he may just like to roll around. :lol: I will keep watching his behaviour around me for signs, but that's about all I can do to tell. The SPCA doesn't allow the dogs to solcialize with one another.

Malamum- Thanks so much for your reply. It is good to hear that others have gone through a similiar experience and it worked out. :)

Bubblezzz- It really doesn't matter to me whether they become best buddies or just tolerate each other. If I can just get Abby to tolerate him I'll be more than happy. :D

DP- That is a great idea and great advice, thanks so much.

[quote]they may NEVER like each other..if they tolerate each other, you're ahead of the ball game. some never click, but they do learn to tolerate. [/quote]
Exactly. :)

[pyrless]

Indifference is 100 times better than outright hostility. And the crate and rotate works if necessary, we have to do that with our girls. But you have a pretty good situation here-opposite sex, far apart in age, time at home.
Let us know what you decide to do!