Sharpeigirl Posted October 15, 2003 Share Posted October 15, 2003 I'm trying to teach Sas the command leave it. I can't seem to get it throug to her. She'll sit, stay, but when I put the treat down & say leave it, she ignores the correction, and eats the treat :roll: Our trainer says it's sometimes hard to get a Pei to listen to leave it. And since Sassy is a "Problem Pei" as my trainer says, it even harder to make her follow a comand. But she is getting good at sit, stay, off, no jump, hurry up & kennel. But, lie down & leave it are hard for her to get the point of. She just refuses to lie down, even with treat, and the pull the legs out. Any Help would be great :D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
courtnek Posted October 15, 2003 Share Posted October 15, 2003 "leave it" is a very hard command to teach using food. Their instincts will tell them to eat, when food is available... You could try starting with a non-food item that she really likes, like a favorite toy...once she gets used to the command in general, then you can teach her with food. Put her on a short, 2-3 foot lead, put the treat down, when she approaches it say "leave it!" and give her a gentle tug away from it. (dont yank, please) Since she will be somewhat familair with the command from toy training, it shouldnt take too long to accept food training. Of course, as soon as she leaves it willingly by your command, then you give it to her. I have found "leave it" easier to train starting with toys, until they get the basics of the command down.... Hope that helps some... :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sharpeigirl Posted October 15, 2003 Author Share Posted October 15, 2003 Thanks for the tip :) Now about Lie Down?? Any advice :roll: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
courtnek Posted October 15, 2003 Share Posted October 15, 2003 "lie down" is fairly easy, since she likes her treats!!! take a treat (one she really likes, like cheese maybe) and get her under a chair or table (so that she cant stand up real easily or comfortably) with a lead on her. say "lie down" and put the cheese on the floor near and in front of her, forcing her to lie down to get it (because of the chair, table) after a few of these sessions, she will associate lying down with something good. After a while, when she has learned the command, you can eliminate the treat and use praise instead! forcing them down is self-defeating, people and animals have a natural tendency to "buck" about being forced, you say down and push and she will push back and up...its' not defiance, it's an instinctive, protective tendency... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
courtnek Posted October 15, 2003 Share Posted October 15, 2003 I didnt state that right....Let her stand behind the chair or coffee table, with a lead on. then when you put the chees down, gently pull her so that she is forced to go under the chair/table, which will make her lie down. You dont want her to be able to stand upright under the chair/table. She will lay down because has to to get to the cheese. she will associate "lie down" with the treat, and the table/chair makes it necessary for her to do so, so it's not a battle between you and her... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gooeydog Posted October 15, 2003 Share Posted October 15, 2003 This may or may not work, but here's what I did with Annie (a dog that I thought I would never get to "down" on command). For about 3 yrs, I tried the various pull the legs gently, lure them down, step on the collar so they're uncomfortable and down after a few minutes, etc methods. None worked. Annie's short little legs were like springs, and as fast as I'd position her in a down (if I managed to do so), she'd be right back up again, before my hands were even away. One day we were fooling around in the house, "hunting" treats, and she laid down to get a peice of liver from under a ledge. Something sort of clicked, so I went outside and grabbed a short piece of lumber (this was a 2 x 4, but Annie's just a small dog, you might need a wider piece if you try). Came back in and sat the board up so that she could stand up and fit under it. The lured her under with a treat. Once she was comfortable with that (only took one time, but she's used to doing things like that), I lowered the board so she had to keep her head down to fit under. The once she was doing that, I lowered it further, so that she had to lay down to be able to reach it. I would say "down", lure her down with the treat, then say "good!" just as her elbows hit the floor. We did this maybe 20 times, then started without the treat, but a hand signal instead (still using the board). The once she was doing that well, I took away the board, and she's been fine since. I'd say she's about 95% accurate when I give her the "down" command, but we've only been working at it for about 2 months, so considering all the trouble we had, I'm happy with her progress. This may or may not work with your girl, but if you've tried everything else, you might try it out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
courtnek Posted October 15, 2003 Share Posted October 15, 2003 that's good Gooey...that's kinda what I was saying. If you "make" the dog lay down to get something good (the treat) without forcing, pulling or anger, they learn that lay down means good things happen. I have always had big dogs, so chairs and coffee tables have always worked, but Gooey's solution is better for a small dog. Thanks Gooey, I didnt consider the "small dog" side of it (shame on me!!! :oops: ) :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DogPaddle Posted October 15, 2003 Share Posted October 15, 2003 In our obed. class we did down for the stubborn ones by luring them under your leg so they have to belly crawl and then treating and praising while they were down - same concept as other suggestions. As for leave it - try putting a chair or short table or dog height platform with a favoured treat on it in a wide open space, leash pup, start fairly far away walking on loose lead or heel, approach the treat and when treat has pups attention (with Zaphod this starts 10 ft away :roll: ) say "leave it" and continue walking past, if you get passed without a pull - treat, click, praise. Do the same closer and closer and in different situations, treat on the ground, on your lap, in front of your dog, on her paw while she is in a stay :lol: etc. This teaches both "leave it" and reinforces walking on lead with distractions, eventually you do the excercise off lead. For items that your dog may just pick up around the house, use leave it and/or drop it :roll: and if they don't remove it from their mouth* and replace with a toy they are allowed to chew on. *I even go through the motions of "[i]removing[/i]" the offending item from their mouth if it has already been swallowed, being quick is better but if your too late a lengthy examination of the mouth is a not so subtle reminder to your dog that you weren't kidding, its also tedious for them so reduces some of the reward for scarfing. Note this training method usually results in hand washing. (We need a blech emoticon.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ellieangel Posted October 15, 2003 Share Posted October 15, 2003 The leave... When we teach our puppies this at club we start with a treat in a fist and the pup is in a sit or a down and you hold your fist in front of the pup saying 'leave' the pup will most likely scrabble at it for a bit but will then look at you as if to say " what's going on ?" this is when you give a release command such as "OK!" and then release the treat. Your pup will soon catch on and get so that the instant you say leave they will look away from the treat or sit back from it,this is when you would progress to placing the treat on the floor in front of the pup and using the same leave command and release command when you let your pup have it. Eventually you will be able to move the treats further and further forward until you will eventually be able to place the treat on your pups feet and she will leave it. Just to prove it is possible ..........a little demo from my 2....... [img]http://groups.msn.com/_Secure/0XgDLAooc6FTjJvOscVoP*mNLGtMW40M8EiJ5y6ci4KFm3sdoJ04J7ob8Sy4ue8dktOcb*MhWt!kL8Z4*g2pptqIGjB9W4nxLXOGZ*Ln6MYQMlWKVLwH7Y6FRU2YJy2DNgFgkxWs4ABI/Ellie%20and%20Rio%20leaving%20treats.jpg?dc=4675436408588412468[/img] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3ofakind Posted October 15, 2003 Share Posted October 15, 2003 I think you need a clicker. First you have to get her accustomed to the clicker, to know that when you click she gets a treat. But then you can start using it to "mark" the behavior you are looking for. So when she does "down" you click and treat, she then knows exactly what you want her to do to get the click/treat. You could also try using a key word, such as yes, just like the clicker. You essentially need to give her a better idea of what it is you are looking for so she can repeat it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peng1zrule Posted October 15, 2003 Share Posted October 15, 2003 teaching buddy and calliope down was like teaching springs. they'd go down, then BOING, they were right back up again. Here's how I handled it: 1st, the method. get the dog in a sit, let it sniff/nibble the treat. lead the nose until it's touching the ground, then treat. when the dog associates down with touching the nose to the ground, pull the treat back, slowly but steadily, so that the dog must lay down to get it. praise only when chest and both elbows are on the floor. I don't know if it's your method, but it sure is mine! 2nd, keep the clock in view. One of the ones with the tick-tock hands, not the smooth quartz movement. Get the dog in a down, and position a hand above the shoulder blades. keep an eye on the clock. when the dog goes down, don't hand over the treat. say "no!" and gently press the shoulder blades when they try to "boing" up again. start with one second intervals. (yes, you'll go through alot of treats this way) when the dog stays down for one second, go to three seconds, five seconds, seven seconds, ten seconds...you get the idea. increasing the down time by seconds is almost unnoticeable to the dog but I swear it worked for both of my springs, er, dogs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JudyHoffman Posted October 15, 2003 Share Posted October 15, 2003 First, I did not read all the replies you received, so if I am repeating something already said, I apologize. Two things about the "Leave It" and "Down" commands ..... both are asking for submissive behavior from the dog, so if you dog is not submissive at least to you, you have a double issue. The way I taught "Leave It" I would have the dog on a 20' lead (not a flexi). If she was sniffing something, or barking along the fence line, I would say "Kira, Leave It" and tug the lead. When she turned to look at me (because of the tug on the lead) I would profusely praise her then call her "Kira Here". She would come to me and I would use extremely good treats to praise her and let her know that she did exactly as I wished. The premise of the leave it command is to ask the dog to "Leave" whatever it is investigating and NOT GO BACK to it. Leave it means leave it for good and return to my space, at least that is the premise of the command. Down is also a very submissive for a dog. So again, if your dog has problems allowing you to be the leader in the relationship, this can take some time. The way I taught down was while watching TV at night. I would sit on my couch with pockets of treats and my clicker. Of course the dogs all know I have treats and would "sit" in front of me. I would ask "Lie Down" or "Down" and look at the floor, not at the dog. No Down, No Praise, No Treats. I would totally ignore her. Five minutes later, I'd say "Lie Down" and stare again at the floor. After 4 or 5 repetitions of this, she laid down when I told her. I clicked/treated and profusely praised. It took one night to teach a down or "Lie Down". I consistently asked for these behaviors anywhere we went, to the strip mall, for a walk, anywhere. It took a week to get a consistent 100% "Down" and "Leave It". The exercise should be done between 500 and 750 times a day and if you are home with your dog all day, it's really not as much as it seems. Down is Down ...... when you ask for it, you must get it. Leave it is Leave it ..... if you want it, work for it. The dog must comply and feel it is doing the best thing in the entire universe for you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Queen Bitch Posted October 15, 2003 Share Posted October 15, 2003 Off topic, but OMD Ellie Rio's become so pretty! I love the brown between his toes. Ellie's dainty self control is gorgeous. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ellieangel Posted October 15, 2003 Share Posted October 15, 2003 Awwww shucks Hillside :oops: Those treats are their favourites too :lol: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
imported_Cassie Posted October 15, 2003 Share Posted October 15, 2003 I taught my Rotweiler "off" and "take it" basically the same way ellieangel went over. Many people use "Leave it" and "take it" voice commands. The reason I taught her the 2 commands was "off" means don't touch it until I say its OK...and I may never say its OK..."take it" means I think its OK for her to touch the item with her mouth....my Rottweiler is also a very stubborn dogs and very dominant...it took me only 20 minutes to teach her the "off" command...I was very proud. :angel: especially since we learned in front of 250 people!!! this was taught at an aggression seminar I attended when I first adopted the Rottie. I taught "off" as one word as all my commands are one word...they sound more like a bark/command to the dog. I showed my Rottie the treat in the palm of my hand and each time she tried to grab for it I closed my fist over the treat....I would open my hand again and tell her "off" and when she went to grab it same procedure!!! :lol: the moment she looked away or down I then said "take it". This has worked very well for us, we walk alot in the woods and you never know what kind of dead animal you will find or other "things" which are not some thing I want my dogs to put in their mouths...my Rottie once saw a dead Porcupine...and I was able to tell her "off" as she was trotting over to it...I also inforce the "off" and "take it" with tug-o-war games...if I want to intice play I will hold out her rope toy and say "take it"...when I get tired of the game I say "off" and she immediately drops it. All my "good" commands are two words all my "have to do some thing" are one word commands...down, sit, around (that is the finish where the dog sits in front of you then walks around you to the heal position) etc. I notice you have already taught your dog a command "off" what do you use the command for???? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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