humboldt505 Posted January 15, 2003 Share Posted January 15, 2003 i am beinging puppy training classes for my 3 1/2 month old mix next week. i went to orientation tonight. The trainer prefers prong collars. My dog is a mixed large breed dog. What are the pros and cons of a prong collar and what is recommended. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eggrolyn1223 Posted January 15, 2003 Share Posted January 15, 2003 I've never used one before(don't want to either), but they look really cruel to me...I have no idea though... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
humboldt505 Posted January 15, 2003 Author Share Posted January 15, 2003 who knows maybe all of the above, there was someone there who let their rotti pup and her son, of the same weight, wrestel in the back yard unsupervised. Now i am the last one to act as if i know it all, but i really couldn't understand what was going through her head. They do sell the collars. Mhh, i am a military spouse living in the smallest town in the world in one of the lamest states, we only have one training school here. The closest is 2 hours out. With us sharing a car, it makes it hard to make that trip. Are their blatent signs of a bad trainer i should look for. I would never hurt my dog or have her made fearful by anyone. Should i stay away from the school? I have heard choke collars damage the dogs trechia (sorry for my spelling). Should i just stay with nylon? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
humboldt505 Posted January 15, 2003 Author Share Posted January 15, 2003 k- nthis is totally helping. It's hard when their are so many desisions and so many conflicting opinions. Training books are are different, and so are trainers. I am just trying to get a general consensus. thanks Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daisysmom Posted January 15, 2003 Share Posted January 15, 2003 I agree!! I think they are more for problem dogs. I would [color=red]never [/color]use one, especially on a puppy who is still developing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Anonymous Posted January 15, 2003 Share Posted January 15, 2003 Alright Im kind of confused I have one of those collars that tightens if the pup gets to far out from thje leash but Im reading this could cause damage to the tracheal <sp> tube in there throat?? This dog is like die hard.. When she sees someone.. She will try and try and try to get close to them no matter how much it chokes her, even if you say no she keeps going.. Is this bad for her?? Should we get a different collar? IT doesn't have the prongs on it.. Its just like a Slip not collar it tightens as the dog gets furhter out and the leash gets tighter. SHe is about 8 or 9 months old.. Any Advice? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Anonymous Posted January 15, 2003 Share Posted January 15, 2003 I have to step out and say that prong collars are defiantely an effective training tool. Now they are the cure-all training device and MOST dogs do not need them, I would like to point out that of all the dogs i have ever had only 1 has ever needed to get a prong collar. Some dogs are to driven to heed a standard chain collar. And that is where the damage comes in you have to correct so much harder in order to get an effect, and in most cases the dog continues to pull anyway. But with the prong it takes relatively litte effort to get a corretion across, the danger there is that your are used to the hard corrections and so you snap a lot harder than neccesary and you actually hurt/scare the dog, and as anyone who knows dogs will tell you that makes them shut down once a dog is scared its useless to continue because they will get even the easiest commands wrong from fear. Used properly thay are a great device, it has allow my petite mother to walk my rottweiler and not have to worry about him dragging her anywhere, or chasing anything. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black GSD Posted January 15, 2003 Share Posted January 15, 2003 Personally I like prong collars a LOT better than a choke chain. You can give an MUCH lighter correction with a prong and get the same result than with a heavier correction on a choke chain.. That said, That trainer is a IDIOT. ( Just my opinion.) Your dog is a PUPPY. It is too young for those types of corrections. Puppies need "positive" reinforcement, NOT serious correction. Personally, I would use a flat regular collar, lots of treats and praise on a young puppy. The time for corrections is AFTER they have already learned the necessary commands. When the dog KNOWS the commands and then REFUSES to comply, THAT is the time to start with the corrections. You will have a much happier dog this way. :D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carolk9s Posted January 15, 2003 Share Posted January 15, 2003 Black GSD said what I would have said if I was thinking at all clearly today! :D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gooeydog Posted January 15, 2003 Share Posted January 15, 2003 Pros... -dog will quickly learn to obey the command in order to avoid the correction -prong collars, when used properly, don't require as much pressure/force to use a a slip/choke collar, and "pinch", rather than "contract" Cons.... -dog may decide that what it wants to go "see" is worth the correction, and barge along anyway -prong collars often break (you should always have a back up collar on with them) -it's difficult to issue corrections at the exact right second -some dogs will go into avoidance or completely shut down when corrected Go with what you think will work best for your dog, if she's been doing well on a flat collar, stick with that. You know her better than the trainer, so watch her carefully, and see what she "tells" you. If at any time, you feel uncomfortable with one of the trainer's methods, or the pup does, tell the trainer you're uncomfortable with it. If you can, go without your pup to watch a training class or two, and see how the trainer interacts with the dogs/owners, as well as how the dogs/owners react to her and amongst themselves. If you're in the US, you can look at this link to see some things to look for in a trainer (they also have a thing where you can search for trainers in your area)... [url]http://apdt.com/[/url]. Newfiemom also suggested a good site to look at. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Anonymous Posted January 15, 2003 Share Posted January 15, 2003 Not only is it ot recommended for a dog that young, it wont work they will not comprehend and the corrections hurt and scare a pup, they wont learn anything in that state. You may want to find another trainer this guy is starting at the worst end of the spectrum. He might be a good trained but it sounds like he is used to harder dogs and shouldnt be working with puppies. WAY TOO ROUGH!!! stick with the squaky baby voice and treats and TONS of praise, then you can look at the possibility of a choker colar and even that is remote, definately stay away from the prong for now. :black: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Anonymous Posted January 15, 2003 Share Posted January 15, 2003 Here is a link to some collers I found at Pet Smart.. Now I know Petmsart is a store around that I take my dog too.. But either ways here is a link to some collers: [url]http://www.petsmart.com/servlet/petsearch?species=1260&lookat=product&RowsPerPage=20&Product_Name_str1=collers[/url] Those prong collers look mean.. Question Ive had my Choke coller on her for a few weeks to a month.. How can you tell if its done any damage?? Im going to remove it when I get home but just a thought.. She goes into the Vet Feb 1st for her second round of shots :-) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Anonymous Posted January 15, 2003 Share Posted January 15, 2003 the prong collars are more snug fit and cant fall off but they REALLY shouldnt be left on, there is danger of choking and as well as any injuries. Bad practice, to leave them on anytime other than walks or training. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Anonymous Posted January 15, 2003 Share Posted January 15, 2003 Basically by Choke Chain I mean its a coller thats like a slip not.. The harder she pulls on the lease the tighter it gets.. The only reason I leave it on is because its easier to hook on to her when she goes out.. She is usually pretty eager to go out... Anyways I think Im going to throw that coller away when I get home.. Noone really answered my question has damage been done to her "Trekial" tube?? Pardon the spelling.. Within a month? :oops: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hobbit Posted January 15, 2003 Share Posted January 15, 2003 humbolt -- I answered you by PM, I hope you received it. We were having computer problems this morning. Before anyone starts jumping up and down and screaming like a banshee --- we do not leash break our dogs. They don't wear a collar until they are over 6 months old. We may put a collar on and take it off several times, but that's about it. We teach the pups from an early age to have a good, solid recall and to follow us. If the situation arises that we need to lead them somewhere or that they must be on leash ----- our method of handling is such that, we put on a collar and snap a lead and they FOLLOW us. We aren't actually leading them. Some will pull once or twice, but none of them have ever fought (or done the floppy fish dance when on a leash). We never use prong or choke collars --- just nylon and leather collars. BUT -- keep in mind that they are working dogs and not show or sports dogs. We live in the country, way back in the sticks....so, our situation is different. The point of this story is ---- we (personally) do not use prong collars. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Anonymous Posted January 15, 2003 Share Posted January 15, 2003 Odds are: no there hasnt been any damage. YOu have to be really rough in order to hurt your dog now if you have been yanking very hard and using the collar wrong then possibly. WHen you hold it to put it on the dog it should make a "P" shape not a q, and the corrections should be make with the dog on your left side. If you use the collar wrong it just tightens and doesnt loosen up when the dog stop pulling. Thay are a very good training tool you should just use it responsibly not throw it away. It can really asist you in getting the dogs attention, you should snap and not pull when you correc the idea is to get the loud zip noise that should startle the dog enought o get their attention. Dont trash the collar just use it right. :black: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kiger Posted January 15, 2003 Share Posted January 15, 2003 I saw one being used for the first time the other night. There was a BIG 4 year old boxer in my basic training class who basically ran the house - people were there just to feed him. When the trainer asked him to sit (this is pre-prong when he had a gentle leader on), he tried to bite her. So on went the prong. He was really pissed that someone was actually making him obey, but he did it. From what I understand, it pinches - it looks like those prongs would poke right through the skin, but they don't. Then, there was another couple there with a spitz-type mix and they had never disciplined the dog or taught her anything. When they did finally ask (in a wishy washy kinda way), the dog ignored them. The trainer told them she'd give them their money back if they weren't going to work with the dog - out came the prong again. The wife finally made the dog sit and the dog screamed her head off - just like a Shiba. The whole time I was watching him thinking how glad I was that I started early with Kato and didn't give in when he threw a tantrum. He only needs a flat collar. :o Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DogPaddle Posted January 16, 2003 Share Posted January 16, 2003 To my understanding some dogs are just more or less inclined to obey. While some may only need a flat collar others might need a halti/gentle leader or a choke or prong. Personally I'd want to start with the flat collar and leave myself somewhere to go if that didn't work. Maybe use a halti if it becomes nec or a choke or prong if it seems nec. or helpful. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
humboldt505 Posted January 16, 2003 Author Share Posted January 16, 2003 Thanks to everyone for the help. I am so confused about the whole issue because of the training books i have read seem to be advocates of the prong collar. I think i'll just keep trying the nylon collar. I am worried i take her on 2 walks a day and we never get very far. I can't give her any slack on the lead because she always wants to go in the street. Maybe the class will let me know what i have been doing wrong. I have been trying really hard i want her to be able to hike with us and go to eat with us but right now whenever she sees a person she freaks out, pees and trys to get to them. I think she just gets too excited. In class she acts the same way paying no attention to me or food. She ignores her food even treats untill she is tired of being with us. Hopefully she'll get over her unrelenting drive to get attention. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
humboldt505 Posted January 16, 2003 Author Share Posted January 16, 2003 My husband is in the Air Force, he wears fatuiges all day long. His feet are so gross by the time he takes off his boots. But my humby loves it. His stinky socks are the only thing that we can get her att. with. It is kinda weird but she steals them when ever she can break into the laundry room. Maybe someone makes a treat that smells like feet. We'll just have to keep trying. Any ideas on treat dog are allowed to eat that they can't resist. Is cooked chicken or turkey okay for rewards. She hates all milk bone treats. But she got a hold of fallen meat once and liked it but we try so hard not to let her have people food. Help if you can with dog safe delicasies (sp?). thanks everyone Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nancy B Posted January 16, 2003 Share Posted January 16, 2003 [quote name='gooeydog']Pros... -dog will quickly learn to obey the command in order to avoid the correction -prong collars, when used properly, don't require as much pressure/force to use a a slip/choke collar, and "pinch", rather than "contract" Cons.... -dog may decide that what it wants to go "see" is worth the correction, and barge along anyway -prong collars often break (you should always have a back up collar on with them) -it's difficult to issue corrections at the exact right second -some dogs will go into avoidance or completely shut down when corrected [/quote] I agree absolutely! A prong collar is simply a training tool. Used properly for the correct amount of time and with the correct amount of force they're very effective. My biggest gripe about a prong is that some folks call it "power steering". They're too lazy to do the training required and their dog winds up with a prong on for the rest of it's life. That is abuse of a prong! My Whitney was trained on a flat buckle collar, never needed anything else. Mason was a different story. I used a prong with him for a period of about a week to teach him to walk nicely with me when he was about a year old. Oddly enough although he'd been leash broken on a flat buckle collar from the time he was a tiny pup, when he reached a year old he became convinced that he could pull my arms out. I did of course try the be a tree" method and "turn and walk the other way" method prior to resorting to the prong. Neither method was effective with Mason. I used that prong on him over a year ago and have never had to repeat the experience. And no, I wasn't overly harsh with it! :) In addition to the other concerns posted about choke collars, Dobermans can have a disease called Wobblers (CVI)....a problem with neck vetebrae instability. There is no test to predict whether your dog will develop Wobblers although it does seem to occur more in some lines than other. Because of Wobblers, I will not use a choke collar on my dogs for correction. I also will not use a Halti/gentle leader. While the Halti is a wonderful tool for many dog breeds, a highly motivated dog like Mason is could quite easily hit the end of the lead running and "snap" his head around...just what we don't want to do with his neck. All of that said, I still would train a puppy on a flat buckle collar. My personal belief is that any of the training tools listed above (choke, prong, halti) should be used only if you encounter a real problem and a resistant dog. Training should be just that...training! Preferably with positive reinforcement methods. I would not correct a dog for not performing a certain behavior unless I was first, certain that the dog was trained to perform that behavior and absolutely knew what I was asking it to do and second, had the mental maturity to be able to process a command and respond....puppies are easily distracted! :D BTW, for me a "correction" for my clicker trained dogs is usually just witholding a click and treat. A "harsher correction" is to stop the training session....both dogs are so wild to train with the clicker that it makes a huge impression if the training session is ended early. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black GSD Posted January 16, 2003 Share Posted January 16, 2003 Humbolt. It is actually better if you use people food. A LOT of folks use hotdogs. Chicken is also good. Just make the bites small. (The size that she wan just swallow without chewing.) You want her to be able to "scarff" up the treat, not have to take time to chew it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Anonymous Posted January 16, 2003 Share Posted January 16, 2003 That is very true Hot dogs are a GREAT training tool, Also small pieces of cheese work well. :black: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black GSD Posted January 16, 2003 Share Posted January 16, 2003 I forgot to say before, lots of people use beef liver too. We used to boil it, them bake it. BUT, it will stink up your whole house. Smells REALLY bad. That is why I prefer hotdogs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nancy B Posted January 16, 2003 Share Posted January 16, 2003 [quote name='Black GSD']I forgot to say before, lots of people use beef liver too. We used to boil it, them bake it. BUT, it will stink up your whole house. Smells REALLY bad. That is why I prefer hotdogs.[/quote] I frequently use cherrios to train at home. When we're out of the house the treats need to be a "higher value" or the dogs could opt to give their attention to someone/something else so I use hot dogs or chicken. If I'm training something that's particularly difficult or that I'm trying to get a very fast response to (a recall or flying over the A-frame) I use liver. Yep, boiled and then baked...yes, it does stink up the house but it's a great motional tool! :D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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