What to do with a young, agressive dog?

[Aroura]

Anyone who's been reading my post on breaking up dog fights will already know that Lily has just come to that stage in life where she's questioning authority.
Yesterday she had a massive fight with Tessa over a silly little birthday present that she didn't even want. For the first time in her life she won a fight, she more than just won it, she's made Tessa afraid to so much as look in her direction. Now Lily's the alpha dog and she's a mean one at that.
Last night when she was on my bed Tessa came in for a pat, Lily took one look at her, growled and Tessa skulked away and hid in the cupboard. I'm constantly holding Lily back now because every time Tessa walks into the room she just wants to go her. She's possessive over everything, if Tessa shows the slightest bit of interest in something she'll run over and make sure Tessa doesn't go near it, even if she doesn't even want it.
Then today we went to the Pine Forest to have a Barbie with my friend and her dog, Tiger. When we got to my friend, Bellas house, we went to put Tiger in the boot of our station wagon, one glance at him and Lily jumped over the back and started growling and trying to attack him (he's a dane/mastiff cross and very BIG). I had to actually take Lily out of the car, let Tiger in the boot and then sit in the back seat with Lily and hold her head and collar the whole trip while she growled, barked and made all sorts of horrible, nasty noises.
So what do I do? She's only a year old, so do I still have hope in resocializing her? Is my best bet to get her to meet as many non agressive, social dogs as possible?
I've always looked at people with agressive dogs and thought to myself how irrisponsible they were for not socializing their dogs, now I understand how they must feel. I'm upset that she's turned out like this :cry:

[Guest Anonymous]

Sorry to hear that Aroura. She's a bit extreme, but it's somewhat normal. She's growing up, trying to work her way up rank wise. Do you plan to have her spayed, or is she already? You've had her out and about a lot, haven't you? Have you thought about obedience? Which isn't a complete cure, but can help you deal with it. The others may have some better ideas. Poor Tess, huh?!

Connie

[Guest roo]

To be perfectly honest and blunt with you :o
You have got a problem on your hands.
Bitches are not like dogs they are evil, often once they have had a fight they hate for life. i feel for Tessa.
When the fight had stopped with the girls, what did you do??
Lily has got to learn quick smart that this behaviour is not acceptable,
A long time ago i said that if they were argueing over bones you may end up with problems.
You need to come down on her like a ton of bricks, i know you love her dearly, she may be a bit hormonal after the season, she may be a spoilt brat :o Be firm but fair with her, dont give her an inch or she will take a mile.
Good luck and keep a diary of her behaviour, sometimes things fall into place that way.
Roo

[anne3149]

I think first of all desexing.
Secondly intensive obedience training so you will have some control over the situation. Surely if you do nothing then nothing good will happen and you will have enormous problems.

[Hobbit]

You girls are SO right. A bitch will hold a grudge and never, ever forget or forgive the other girl. It might be years that they've been apart and the first time they are back together --- the fight is on! The time before, during and after their cycle is the worse --- basically ALL the time!! :roll:

[Guest roo]

I know you are going to be having a litter/litters from
lily in the future. But if you cant get this temperement thing sorted out.
Don't even consider puppies from her.

Hobbit, thats women for you :lol:

[wildbunch]

I have to agree with Mei-Mei. You need to assert yourself as Alpha. I know exactly what you are going through. We have a 4 month old dane puppy and she has been showing aggresive signs towards our female hound. All of my dogs are altered except the puppy (she will be shortly). We took her to a positive reinforcement trainer and have been working hard at kicking this behaviour in the butt.
She now knows that WE are alpha of this pack NO EXCEPTIONS. We tell them when they can get on the couch, where they are allowed to go, when they can play. We've done time outs (helps alot).
She has settled down and doesn't bare her fangs at the hound now. (That was scary, her being so young and all.)
You might think about seeking a behaviouralist or professional positive trainer.
I also agree with Roo. If she is showing highly aggressive signs please don't breed her. Whoever gets the pups may not take it as well as you do.
Let us know how it's going.

[Horsefeathers!]

I can only tell you how we live with an aggressive dog and what is working for us.

First of all, my Penny is spayed. I agree with Roo when she said that it would be a way wrong idea to breed Lily if she is going to have aggression problems. I know you wouldn't want to be responsible for starting another generation of ill tempered Boxers.

Also, my Penny reached the point of having to be medicated. She will probably have to take a happy pill each day for the rest of her life. It doesn't totally eliminate the problem, but it makes her much less volatile. When she goes at another dog, she has intentions of killing and nothing less. Forcing them into submission doesn't stop her... she'll keep on at them even if they are cowering on the floor screaming. The medication reduces the ferocity and frequency of the attacks.

The absolute most important thing is to supervise supervise supervise. I can't stress that enough. Penny [u]usually[/u] gets along great with our other dogs, but she is never, not even for a minute, left alone with them unsupervised. We know that she will [b]never[/b] be able to be trusted. She is just too unpredictable. It's not to say they have to be separated 24/7, but you have to be prepared to monitor them closely when they [u]are[/u] together. It's a full time job, but is a necessity if you want to maintain peace. You will also need to always be on alert for the things that seem to create the problems. With Penny, her most volatile attacks are if she is abruptly awakened from sleeping. This means she absolutely must sleep in her crate when napping. Knowing this, she always moseys into her crate when she feels a nap coming on. She also can be triggered into an attack if there is food or affection involved. If we are passing out treats or affection, she absolutely must be held in a sit/stay and focus only on us (hubby or me). It all comes back to diligent monitoring. If you feel that Lily has the potential to harm Tessa, it's up to you to keep Tessa safe. Just be sure to never trust them alone, ever. It's a full time job, but worth it in the long run. Without this constant monitoring and adjustment to our lifestyle, Penny would have to be put to sleep as it is illegal here to "change ownership" (sell, give away, "rehome") of an aggressive dog. We adore her... she just has "issues."

I know this is the last thing you want to hear, but I tend to believe that having Lily spayed would be a really good idea.

[Hobbit]

Roo and HF --- I agree with what you two are saying.

I think I'm reading that maybe Lilly is being praised for her actions unknowingly by Aroura. The present was Lilly's to begin with and should have never been allowed to be taken by Tessa. Wrapping presents are just a little too much for me --- but, each to their own. Presents to a dog is PROPERTY, territory and is very serious business.

Aroura did you pet or cottle Lilly afterwards?

[gooeydog]

[quote]Wrapping presents are just a little too much for me[/quote]
But the paper's the best part :lol: I wrap Goo's x-mas present [i]only[/i] because she loves pulling off the paper and shredding it into a little pile :roll:
I don't really have much advice for you Aroura (haven't been in that situation, yet), but I will say that being alpha is different from being a "tyrant". Lily shouldn't be allowed to make Tessa that afraid, you do need to step in on that and make sure to stop it. Lily can be the dominant dog, but [i]you[/i] are the one in charge, and what you say goes, no arguments, no second guessing. Set the "rules of conduct" and make sure to follow through on them consistently. :lol:

[Guest Anonymous]

My Pups going through "the stupid stage" too!

[Guest Anonymous]

the best answer is OBEDIENCE you need to use obedience to help. that way you will not be giving mixed signals. just like mentioned about you praising lily for her behavior and not realizing it. also, you are not acting as a leader if you are having to physically hold back your dog our yell at her. using obedience is the most clear way to get the picture across. it is best to consult with a professional trainer and get the problem under control before it gets worse. it is also the safest. especially if they are pitbulls. i only say that because so many people freak out over any little thing a pit does. and i think that will only cause you problems. i'm sure you know what its like. if it were a lab people wouldn't think much of it but just because it's a pit people will think that is the only reason it is acting like that. and we all know any dog can act like that.

[Guest Anonymous]

Hi Aroura,

Something else I would like to recommend to you, aside from the wonderful suggestions already provided, is reconditioning Lily to acknowledge Tessa as the alpha. I believe that in the dog/human pack there should be not only an acknowledged human alpha, but an alpha dog as well. A true alpha is not a domineering or aggressive dog, they simply KNOW there place in the hierarchy and can help you in there role by exerting their control over the rest of the pack. I have 2 intact females (and formally the pack included a intact male) as well as a cat. Our Lily is the alpha, Val constantly challenged Lily for this position when she was around the same age as your girl. What we did was help Lily maintain her status.....she is fed first, we do not allow Val to eat until Lily is finished. When we dispense treats, Lily gets her first. Lily is always allowed outside first, whether going outside to potty or going for a walk, Lily always without exception precedes Val. If Val growls at Lily over a toy, she is put in a down stay in the corner and the toy is given to Lily....we do not allow either of the dog's to have a toy that is just theirs except for one which remains in their box and is never for communal play. If Val growls at Lily about position on the bed, she has to spend the night in her box and watch Lily sleep in the bed....then she has an opportunity to try again the next night. I am the alpha of the human pack and it is my responsibility to decide who is the alpha of the animal pack and to reinforce that dog. Since this program was followed assiduously (and I know it sounds a little harsh and unfair) Val absolutely never challenges Lily anymore, even when they are both in heat, because I view a challenge to Lily as a challenge to me and so does Val. A dog who displays dominance/aggression while in the alpha position will never be truly comfortable and will constantly be trying to establish their authority which could lead from dog aggression to human aggression as well. A good alpha dog is one who is secure in their position and doesn't have to resort to extreme aggression to maintain that position, and they never abuse their power. For example, Lily doesn't steal the toy that Val is playing with, unless she decides Val is getting out of hand in her exuberance, then she will simply raise her lip and Val goes to her box. A good alpha dog maintains discipline and harmony in the pack. When I brought our cat into the house, I introduced him to Lily first, Val loathed him on sight and wanted to chase him. Since Lily understood I expected this animal to be integrated, she would chastise Val and send her to her box each and every time she chased the cat. I didn't have to do any work with Val to get her to accept the cat, because my little alpha girl (who is totally submissive to her human chain of command) did all the work for me. A good alpha dog is worth the work you put into them to make them so. Sorry this was so long, but I wanted to give you examples from our household.

Later,
Trinity

[Aroura]

Great suggestions everyone, but Trinitys particulary stood out. Trinity, your Lily sounds alot like my Tessa, and your Val sounds like my Lily. Tessa would never be mean for the sake of being mean, or to simply scare another dog into submission. I like your suggestion and I think I'll give it a go.

For all those who suggested obedience, Lily came second in her begginers obedience class and never completed her next classes as she came into heat, but she'll be returning next year.

For all those who said that if she stays agressive that I should desex her and never breed her, I AGREE 100%!!! But my feelings at this stage is that, she's at the age where many dogs question authority, also she just came out of heat etc so I'm thinking it may not be a case of her being an agressive dog, but that she's just going through a phase brought on by many different factors.

Yes, I did give her present to Tessa, under the impression that she didn't even want it! But I know better for next time, I just didn't know she'd react so badly about something she wasn't even interested in. And for whoever said I may have praised her without even realizing... although I did put her straight out after the fight, she had found a choc drop that had fallen out of the present on the way, so yes, in that way she was praised even though I didn't give it to her, she just picked it up before I noticed.

She knows I'm alpha though, I don't particulary have to worry about that one, although I'm usually gentle and nice to her, when I'm nasty I'm really nasty.... I never have to hit her, she usually reacts to my voice alone! I'll just have to put this to the practice more in making her realize that Tessa is Alpha.

[Guest Anonymous]

I hope that Lily is crate trained - it may be a very useful tool while you are trying to nip this one in the butt! :lol:

[bk_blue]

Aroura, I remember BK reacted very nastily to Rinny earlier this year when he picked up a bone of BK's that he had not been interested in for a few hours (only the second time I've seen him be really horrible to Rinny). Other than that, and the time 5 years ago when they had a nasty fight and Rinny ended up missing a piece of his ear, they absolutely adore each other. But Blitz pestered Rinny for 4 years before he became alpha!!! I hope that with your help Tessa and Lily can grow old together with minimal repeats of their recent behaviour. :)

[Guest Anonymous]

Aroura,

I hope you will keep us all posted on how this progresses. I hope you will be able to reinstate Tessa! I agree with you that this might turn out to be just a "thang" so to speak. Most teenagers go through a stage of trying to assert themselves, mine did, and with firm guidance she turned into a lovely well mannered girl.

Later,
Trinity
See my girls at [url]www.geocities.com/trinityess[/url]

[Guest Anonymous]

Thank you so much Mei-Mei! Lily is everything I could ask for from a Springer.....or any dog for that matter. Regrettably, even though I consider her to be closer to the standard than Val who did get that little CH put in front of her name.....Lily never finished her championship because she hated the breed-ring with a passion. I am crossing her next year with Val's lines who are known for their enthusiasm in the ring.....praying for babies who look like my girlie but WANT to show. Of course, I must tell you, I told Val what you said about Lily and she is pouting even as we speak.

Thanks Again!
Trinity
See my girls at [url]www.geocities.com/trinityess[/url]

[Aroura]

I will keep you all updated (oh, by the way, I just wanted to agree with how beautiful Lily is! Hope her pups are most enthuisiastic in the ring and you'll probably find yourself with a few champions in your hands!)
There havnt been any more encounters since then. I'm worried Lily simply reacting to Willems behavior towards her and taking it out on Tessa. Lately Willems taken to chasing Lily around the yard, kicking her, throwing anything he can find at her - sticks, bones, balls etc, and terrorising her in general when he thinks no ones looking. Mum said she'd talk to him about it, but I'm not sure how much that will help as its probably his schizzophrenia thats causing him to do it. I'm worried about her, the other day when no one was home and I saw him doing it I let her inside and he got angry at me and said she's not allowed inside and let her out the front door and continued to chase her infront of a car! It nearly hit her too. So I ran out and she came and hid behind me when I picked her up and carried her into my room where she was safe.
She's not usually allowed inside when mums at home, but mums making exceptions now. Still, aside from moving out of home, is there anything I can do to assure her that everythings ok? This is an impossible position for me as I can't make Willem stop, I can't change the house rules as its not my house, and I can't really leave home as without my rent dad wont be able to keep the house :(

[anne3149]

Aroura, you really need to keep your dog safe from your brother. Is he on medication for his schizophrenia?? if so then your mother needs to speak with his doctor again. I have a friend who is schizophrenic and she would not hurt an animal - certainly she has some different behaviours but she is not aggressive in any way at all.
If what you say is correct about your brother kicking and generally abusing your dog then she is not safe there and you need to make other arangements for her. We are responsible for protecting the animals in our care and if I were you I would not let that dog out of my sight for one minute. Does he abuse the other dog too???
What does your father have to say about this.??

[Guest roo]

[quote name='Aroura']I will keep you all updated (oh, by the way, I just wanted to agree with how beautiful Lily is! Hope her pups are most enthuisiastic in the ring and you'll probably find yourself with a few champions in your hands!)
There havnt been any more encounters since then. I'm worried Lily simply reacting to Willems behavior towards her and taking it out on Tessa. Lately Willems taken to chasing Lily around the yard, kicking her, throwing anything he can find at her - sticks, bones, balls etc, and terrorising her in general when he thinks no ones looking. Mum said she'd talk to him about it, but I'm not sure how much that will help as its probably his schizzophrenia thats causing him to do it.

I DONT THINK THAT LILY WOULD TAKE IT OUT ON TESSA.
YOU HAVE SOME VERY SERIOUS ISSUES HERE, WHEN HE STARTS THIS
TERRORISING, WHEN NO ONES LOOKING, HOW LONG DOES IT GO ON FOR BEFORE IT IS STOPPED.




I'm worried about her, the other day when no one was home and I saw him doing it I let her inside and he got angry at me and said she's not allowed inside and let her out the front door and continued to chase her infront of a car! It nearly hit her too. So I ran out and she came and hid behind me when I picked her up and carried her into my room where she was safe.


HOW OLD IS YOUR BROTHER? AND IF HE IS THIS UNCONTROLABL
IS ANYWHERE SAFE IN YOUR HOUSE
She's not usually allowed inside when mums at home, but mums making exceptions now. Still, aside from moving out of home, is there anything I can do to assure her that everythings ok?

I SEEM TO BE GETTING MIXED MESSAGES AGAIN HERE, I THOUGHT SHE WAS ALLOWED IN NOW

This is an impossible position for me as I can't make Willem stop, I can't change the house rules as its not my house, and I can't really leave home as without my rent dad wont be able to keep the house :([/quote]

I THOUGHT THAT YOU AND YOUR DAD WERE MOVING OUT SHORTLY.




Aroura,
I know you do not want to hear this, but i would seriously consider
speaking to the breeder that you got lily from and seeing if she can have her back, for at least a short period of time, even if it is just untill you
and dad find somewhere else to live.
It is totally unacceptable for lily to have to live like this and can cause
some serious problems with her that you will never be able to overcome.
I know you love her dearly, but forget your feelings for now, think of
her safety, her wellbeing, and the mental torture she is being put through
at this present time.
if i had bred lily i would want to know what was going on and would want to take her back for a while to try to put stability back into her life.
Roo

[Aroura]

Anne, yes he is on medication. The doctor has done all he can, the medication controlls the disease, not eliminates. He is generally gentle, but occasionally goes through bad phases, though he particulary has something for Lily.
He's 21 years old, and Roo, the reason she was safe is that Willem very rarely goes in my room when I'm not in there, I sat in the computer room which is between the kitchen and my bedroom, and made sure he didn't go in. Still, it wasn't a guarentee, but it was the best I could do.
The whole Lily being allowed in the house thing depends on mums mood at the time, I know thats unfair but she's leaving soon so Lily can come in whenever I want.
Roo, I thought dad and I were moving out shortly too, but apparently dad wants to keep the house and I don't know whats happening with Willem.
I'm hoping that now that everyones aware of Willems cruelness towards Lily that it wont happen anymore, theres always someone at the computer, which looks out on the backyard so when he goes out there now he can be watched. I don't want to give her back to her breeder, not only for my sake but also because she is very attached to me and gets stressed even if I'm only gone a day.

[Hobbit]

I agree with Roo. How would you like it if someone chased you around and beat on you all the time? The mental damage that it's doing to her is uncalled for and unacceptable.

If he truly does have a medical condition, then what's going to stop him from seriously injuring the dogs? Or worse, another person?

Aroura --- you have given conflicting stories several times.


Just a question for Trinity and some others: Why would Aroura want to reestablish Tessa as the alpha dog over Lilly?

[Carolk9s]

[quote name='Hobbit']

Just a question for Trinity and some others: Why would Aroura want to reestablish Tessa as the alpha dog over Lilly?[/quote][b][/b]

Hobbit, I too have been wondering about this. I am a believer in (for the most part) of letting the dogs sort out who is alpha and who is not. I do insist on the alpha being a benevolent dictator. Jesse has always been alpha BUT if he did get too rough with Brittany she could and would whip around and drive him into a corner. With the addtion of Candy to the little pack, I see that she REALLY wants to be top dog. Its a good thing she is smaller than Brittany or I'm afraid she would totally dominate her. I generally let them sort it out as long as no one is being terrorized or hurt. I do remind them all from time to time that [size=6][b]I[/b][/size] am the top bitch in this house. 8)

I would also be very concerned that at some point Lily will turn on Willem. She might just growl, she might bite, she might attack. All justified under the circumstances BUT will your mother see it that way? Would the authorities? Or will Lily be branded a 'Dangerous Dog'?
Aurora MUST put Lily's needs and safety ahead of her own needs. If Lily's safety CANNOT be guaranteed, then this is like a time bomb ticking away. Either Willem will hurt Lily or Lily will hurt him.

[Guest Anonymous]

Right now it seems that who is alpha is the least of Aroura's problems. With the sort of treatment that Lily is receiving from your brother....your main priority needs to be her SAFETY! Even if being separated from you causes her stress, I think it would be much less stress than being abused will cause her! You need to remove her from this situation before irreparable harm is done to Lily's physical and mental stability!

But in answer to the question, the violence of the attack in question does not sound like Lily would be the sort of "benevolent dictator" that I prefer in my Alpha dog. There are many dogs who in their teenage years challenge for a position they should not occupy and will never be comfortable in. They then turn into aggressive beings who challenge every perceived threat to their authority. If you allow one dog to gain ascension over another dominantly inclined dog there will never be peace in the house....just constant challenges. In a human's role as the house's supreme pack leader, it is your right and responsibility to insure that the alpha of the pack has the correct temperament and stability to be in this role. My father breeds Alaskan Mals, he too once allowed the dogs to sort out between them who would be the alpha. One year a young, bigger male took the position by accident from an older male. Until this time, there had always been peace and harmony in the pack. The young male terrorized the other dogs, cowing them into submission, constantly searching for new threats.....he became nervous and always on guard.....he could never relax.....he started dropping his coat and loosing weight. Finally Dad started reintroducing the older male as the alpha using the steps I spoke of in an earlier post. When the young male began to reassume his position under the older male, he could relax again.....some dogs are not cut out for the top dog role and he was one of them. Of course by then a lovely female had lost a front tooth over a bone and never finished her championship. I think as pack leaders we sometimes have to make decisions for our dogs that they cannot properly make for themselves. An unhappy, cowed, constantly fighting pack is the result of a dog garnering the top position when they shouldn't be in it......the younger dog had the physical strength to beat the older male, but he did not have the correct attitude for the role.....a peaceful pack is the result of a true alpha being in charge.

Of course, I say again.....this is not what Aroura's main problem now. Lily's safety is a risk! Please Please think about what this is doing do her body and mind and get her away from your brother before something irrevocable happens!

Later,
Trinity
See my girls at [url]www.geocities.com/trinityess[/url]