Lab vs. Border Collie

[Smooshie]

OOps sorry!...I got completely off topic there :oops: I just find it interesting that working lines and show lines can be so drastically different within the same breed :o

[Hobbit]

Jacsmom: I can see the difference in field vs show, in the Labs.

Wow, the Boxer's look different, like not even the same breed.

[bk_blue]

They're all quite different aren't they?!

Shows you what breeding for certain characteristics, whether it be looks or herding/working ability, can do to alter the appearance of a dog.

[yellowlabsrule]

Hobbit, I now understand. The AKC IS NOT perfect, but maybe if we tell them (email, letters etc.) they will change. I don't quite see why they have to change the breed to show either. The only thing I can think of is going around all over to shows they couldn't take a working dog like a border collie because it would go crazy being cooped up all the time.

[ShadyLady]

No amount of emails or letters will change the procedures of AKC because it is a controlling body over many different breeds If you were to put the showies and even obedience and agility people in one corner and the herding people in another they are worlds apart .As a herding person the thought of people breeding dogs for looks not what the dogs were bred for originally is horrible So much effort was put into creating these working dogs in the first and yet people come along and wipe it out in half a dozen generations to make it look pretty .Sorry to anyone who shows dogs but it just makes me mad to see a breed ruined :( The reason for the difference in looks is the gene pool of the registration that the dog is registered in by being registered in say the AKC they would for example prefer a thick longer coat because it looks nice where as in a working situation it would be a pain in the backside so the dog with the heavy coat gets registered in the AKC and the dog thats got a shorter coat thats thinner would suit the working b/collie registration So that sort out you have 10 dogs in each so naturally each person breeds in the register that their dog is register in otherwise its not a pure bred (and cannot be register the same as the parent) So by this happening the gene pool is reduced to 10 dogs not 20 dogs and the traits that are prefered by the different clubs start to be doubled up and become strong hence the different looks of the show dogs and the original start to become apparent
Now to us people looking for the original traits that the dog was bred for look at these other dogs and think they have been ruined as we have selected the breed as we admire what they were breed for originally This is why the two organizations are worlds apart and are never going to meet half way Sorry this is such a long post but this is something that shouldnt happen but does and it greatly upsets me as Im sure it does for anyone with working dogs

[Bensam]

OK, here I go again, sticking my Aussie neck out! On the pics. of the working vs show breeds that I have seen on the forum, I can't believe the types are so different in America. The basic conformation of the show dogs here in Australia is, under the show coat, the same as the worker. While the working instinct may be diluted, the anatomy to cope with the work they are bred for is maintained. There is NO way any Border Collie could be mistaken for a Rough Collie here. This applies to the Border Collie, Kelpie and the Lab. just three breeds mentioned. There are Labs here which are duel titled, both conformation and working. Admittedly the workers in any breed will probably have deviation from the show standard as far as, eye placement, size, ear placement, shape, cosmetic things like that, but the basic structural form to allow for the work to be done should be there. There are numerous sites for show kennels in Australia, if you look at those, past the glamour, you will see a structure capable of working. Site for BC's- [url]www.geocities.com/westurnborders/[/url]
I'm not getting into any discussion re the working instinct of these dogs just trying to point out that physically there should not be a great difference. Please don't be cross, Hobbit, I know exactly what you mean, but I cant see any reason for the show dogs to be so different in type and can appreciate your point of view, as I hope you can see mine.

[Hobbit]

[quote name='Bensam']OK, here I go again, sticking my Aussie neck out! On the pics. of the working vs show breeds that I have seen on the forum, I can't believe the types are so different in America. The basic conformation of the show dogs here in Australia is, under the show coat, the same as the worker. While the working instinct may be diluted, the anatomy to cope with the work they are bred for is maintained. There is NO way any Border Collie could be mistaken for a Rough Collie here. This applies to the Border Collie, Kelpie and the Lab. just three breeds mentioned. There are Labs here which are duel titled, both conformation and working. Admittedly the workers in any breed will probably have deviation from the show standard as far as, eye placement, size, ear placement, shape, cosmetic things like that, but the basic structural form to allow for the work to be done should be there. There are numerous sites for show kennels in Australia, if you look at those, past the glamour, you will see a structure capable of working. Site for BC's- [url]www.geocities.com/westurnborders/[/url]
I'm not getting into any discussion re the working instinct of these dogs just trying to point out that physically there should not be a great difference. Please don't be cross, Hobbit, I know exactly what you mean, but I cant see any reason for the show dogs to be so different in type and can appreciate your point of view, as I hope you can see mine.[/quote]



I do appreciate your point of view, but.....show dogs are built differently from the working dogs. The Working Kelpies that I know and have seen from Australia --- look nothing compared to the Show Kelpie from Australia.

Maybe, we just aren't understanding what you are saying. There is a visable difference between the working dog and the show dog. Koolie is right --- show people on one side, working people on the other --- there is no meeting in the middle. When you breed a strong working line to a show line that does not have a strong instinct or desire --- you are taking away from the working instinct and changing the body shape of the show dog. Despite what some people advertise --- it is NOT the best of both worlds.

I'm not being cross with you, I think I just dont' understand your reasoning.

[Guest Anonymous]

Bensam lab breeders here are now duel titleing their dogs but to me their is a big difference in a hunting trial and an actual hunt... A trial may last a couple of hours to where a hunter can stay out 5-8 hours if not longer.. I will go looking around at some breeders your way... Be back soon. :wink:

[corgilady]

[color=blue]Wow my Koda is so obviously a "working" look as well as herding-crazy.... no longer have a farm but now have the dog to work on it :lol: :lol: :lol:

Yellowlabs and Gigi....anyone who thinks they want a border collie, please borrow mine first! I would enjoy the break!!!

[size=2]the little darling is sprawled across my lap at the moment, wearing purple bows that the groomer put on his ears this morning[/size] :roll: [/color]

[Hobbit]

[quote name='corgilady'][color=blue]Wow my Koda is so obviously a "working" look as well as herding-crazy.... no longer have a farm but now have the dog to work on it :lol: :lol: :lol:

Yellowlabs and Gigi....anyone who thinks they want a border collie, please borrow mine first! I would enjoy the break!!!


[size=2]the little darling is sprawled across my lap at the moment, wearing purple bows that the groomer put on his ears this morning[/size] :roll: [/color] [color=darkred]Oh, the shame of bows in such a big-boys ears! [/color] :lol: [/quote]

[color=darkred]YES, and borrow mine, too --- they MUST go out at 2am to check on "their" goats, and then wake me up every hour thereafter to see if I'm awake and want to go check on "their" goats! [/color]

[Bensam]

OK, my last word on this subject. What I am trying to get across is that if you look at the Working Kelpie conformation standard which is on a number of sites and compare it with the Show Kelpie standard as set down by the Show Dog Assoc's, they are practically identical in wording and meaning. General Appearance, Head, Teeth, Eyes, Ears, Neck, Forequarters, Body, Hindquarters, Feet, Tail, Coat, Colour, Size, Movement. All are covered in both standards so how can you say they are built differently if both are being guided by the same standard which the Working Dog Council say this is ideal conformation for the working dog and is the standard the show dog is judged by? This is the part I don't understand.

[Hobbit]

If you look at many "standards" without looking at the breed that it goes with (staying in the same class or height/weight category), they all say about the same thing.

Just because the wording is the same --- does not mean the dogs will look the same.

If a good Working dog is an inch over standard, he isn't sold to a pet family, put down or never worked because he is an inch too tall. He is kept and worked. If he/she is an exceptional herding dog, then she/he may be bred.

Can you see now what I'm talking about?

Natural herding instinct with a strong desire to herd is taken over almost everything else. Conformation is important, because to be able to work long hours, everyday, in all terrain and conditions --- a dog must be correct.

[ShadyLady]

I see where your coming from Bensam in theory it makes sense but there are visable differences in working Vs show If I saw a b/collie down the street I could tell you what it was bred for purely for looks of course there are exceptions to the rules :roll: I suppose you could use a saying the old farmers say to me (many are biased against koolies) "theres no such thing as a bad colored dog" in other words working ability is what we use to guage a dogs worth (naturally they must be sound as well) :)

[corgilady]

[quote name='"Hobbit"'][quote name='corgilady'][color=blue] [color=darkred]Oh, the shame of bows in such a big-boys ears! [/color] :lol: [/quote[color=green]]---> yep that's what I thought! I am pretty sure he was embarrassed! :lol: [/color]
[color=darkred]YES, and borrow mine, too --- they MUST go out at 2am to check on "their" goats, and then wake me up every hour thereafter to see if I'm awake and want to go check on "their" goats! [/color][/quote]

[color=green]HAH! well I am smart you see. I do not have goats. So mine wakes me up at 1 (and 3 and 5) BARKING. GROWLING. SNARLING. BARKING some more. I get up, heart pounding, turn on lights all over [size=2]cuz i am afraid of the dark. [/size]Go in the kitchen to look at him, he's laying there looking at me like, whaddaya want? He doesn't do this when a car goes by with a blaring radio, or when the neighbors make noise. So, maybe it is goat withdrawal[/color]. :lol:

[Bensam]

I am biting my tongue, said it was my last post BUT - Hobbit - you said it - the conformation must be correct - are you referring to the conformation standard as approved by the Working Kelpie Council? If so, that's the one which is the same as the show standard, so how are they built differently? And let's not quibble over an inch in height or a dropped ear. We are talking angulation, length of body, feet , boning, basic working equipment.
Koolie, again I do not mean the furnishings, look beyond those and you will find the structure of the working dog and show dog are basically the same in those all important features.
Most breeds had a purpose and/or job way back and many of them are still being bred with the physical characteristics needed for their particular job being kept to the fore although, admittedly, a lot have no longer the inbred instincts to work. I have not disputed this just tried to make the point that structurally they should not be so different.

[Guest Anonymous]

[color=green]HAH! well I am smart you see. I do not have goats. So mine wakes me up at 1 (and 3 and 5) BARKING. GROWLING. SNARLING. BARKING some more. I get up, heart pounding, turn on lights all over [size=2]cuz i am afraid of the dark. [/size]Go in the kitchen to look at him, he's laying there looking at me like, whaddaya want? He doesn't do this when a car goes by with a blaring radio, or when the neighbors make noise. So, maybe it is goat withdrawal[/color]. :lol:[/quote]

Hobbit quick mail Corgi a goat!!!! :lol:

[Hobbit]

[quote name='Bensam']I am biting my tongue, said it was my last post BUT - Hobbit - you said it - the conformation must be correct - are you referring to the conformation standard as approved by the Working Kelpie Council? If so, that's the one which is the same as the show standard, so how are they built differently? And let's not quibble over an inch in height or a dropped ear. We are talking angulation, length of body, feet , boning, basic working equipment.
Koolie, again I do not mean the furnishings, look beyond those and you will find the structure of the working dog and show dog are basically the same in those all important features.
Most breeds had a purpose and/or job way back and many of them are still being bred with the physical characteristics needed for their particular job being kept to the fore although, admittedly, a lot have no longer the inbred instincts to work. I have not disputed this just tried to make the point that structurally they should not be so different.[/quote]

Conformation meaning: not pigeon toed, or splay-footed; not straighted hocked, not camped-under; not ewe-necked or bow necked; etc....

Again --- just because the *standard* says that they should be bred that way, does not mean that they are. The GSD did not start out with hips and hocks dragging the ground; now they do.

Bensam -- I'm not being grouchy with you, but there is a *VISUAL* difference (not to mention mental difference) between the Bench bred and Working bred Kelpie, Border Collie, and other herding vs show bred dogs.

Structure has nothing to do with it, because hide the breed name and some dogs look exactly alike on paper ---- in real life, they are not.

If you don't raise, work or around herding dogs --- you can't see what we are talking about (please, I'm not being grouchy or being hateful).

Inbreeding/linebreeding, outcrossing for one specific trait can change the structure of a dog. It can change the angulation of the hips and hocks, chest, shoulders, legs, etc....

I see what you are talking about ---- it SHOULD be the same, but it is NOT.

[Bentley's Dad]

Why not an ACD? Theyre alot like BC's but with an off switch (so to speak)
ex: when im on the computer or tired he usually will just lay down instead of trying to start a game, but when play time comes he's a lunatic

Theyre great for Flyball, agility, and are the 9th or 10th (cant remember) smartest breed (to be fair BC is #1)

Bentley used to herd people alot, but he's not so much anymore, it started leaving when he was about 4-5 months, after his big boy teeth grew in.

Well, Bentley is licking the mac and cheese residue out of a bowl from my lap... now he's sniffing the moniter and making some big nasty snot marks... now he's sitting by the steps, i guess its tennis ball time! :roll: :D

[Hobbit]

[quote=Bentley's Dad]Why not an ACD? Theyre alot like BC's but with an off switch (so to speak)
ex: when im on the computer or tired he usually will just lay down instead of trying to start a game, but when play time comes he's a lunatic

Theyre great for Flyball, agility, and are the 9th or 10th (cant remember) smartest breed (to be fair BC is #1)

Bentley used to herd people alot, but he's not so much anymore, it started leaving when he was about 4-5 months, after his big boy teeth grew in.

Well, Bentley is licking the mac and cheese residue out of a bowl from my lap... now he's sniffing the moniter and making some big nasty snot marks... now he's sitting by the steps, i guess its tennis ball time! :roll: :D[/quote]


Do you want to trade? I am unable to find the OFF switch on our ACD's! :P

Most ACD's do NOT make good apartment dogs and become fence runners when left in the back yard (in town).

[Bentley's Dad]

That is funny, Bentley either goes 100 mph or 0, but when i talk to BC owners at the dogpark or other places they always say their dogs never stop, then again there is only one dog, so if im not in a playfull mood he doesnt have much of a choice, if he had a permanant playmate it would be chaos :)

[bk_blue]

[quote=Bentley's Dad]That is funny, Bentley either goes 100 mph or 0...
if he had a permanant playmate it would be chaos :)[/quote]

Heh I know what you mean. If Blitz isn't asleep he's hyperactive, either guilting me into going for a walk or pestering me for food. When he lived with Rinny (when both of them were a lot younger) it was action all the time, they would be out playing and chasing each other at top speed while we would just try to stay out of the way (BK will knock you over if you're in the way, he's not heavy- about 24kg- but he's bloody fast and strong, Rinny is more of a gentleman).

[imported_Foster]

Please tell me how to find the off switch on an acd...mine is go, go, go all the time. She is a pistol. Thankfully, she can be controlled during flyball months but oh lordy, if we take time off from flyball, she becomes a maniac.

Acd's are no better than bc's. It all depends on what you do with them. They both need a lot of mental exercise. That seems to wear them out the most. Physical activity only goes so far.

My bc/mix was a hyperactive puppy and was that way until she was about 2. Now she will just lay around most of the time. But you bring out the ball or frisbee she becomes a maniac. People think she is hard to deal with because at flyball she is wild. When people from flyball come over for the first time they see the real her. Cuddle, Cuddle, Cuddle. She is extremely lazy...

[Guest Anonymous]

My Lab is lovable, but distructive.