BARF, To Be or NOT to Be?

[Gordonmom]

Actually what I said was that I didn't think dogs got E. coli O:157, not that they didn't get E. coli. Two different things, as I am sure you know. There is one of your toxin producers. (E. coli is not).

I don't understand your 200ppm/100ml, because ppm I assume stands for parts per million multiplied per 100 ml, that's an awful lot of exceptable bacteria. Do you mean 200 CFU/100ml? Water E.coli around here is registered by parts per billion, not parts per millions, so I guess I am not getting you.

Your pups dying of E. coli has nothing to do with dying of a food born illness, which is what people are suggesting with a BARF diet. E. coli is not a food born illness. It is a fecal contamination illness. And it was the age of your pups that caused the illness, not the E.coli, given the fact that the mother did not die. I never once suggested that dogs did not get bacterial diseases.

And again, unless you do a culture, there is no way of knowing that the food born illness that your dog has was Salmonella. None. period. And unless you took that wrapping that the piece of meat was in, and cultured that also, you could not prove anything. And unless you can tell me that everytime your dogs have an intestional problem you do a culture to find the exact nature of what is causing the problem, again, I will have to take what you say with a grain of salt, because how can you possibly assume which of many organisms is causing the disease just by looking at symptoms?

Again, you guys can believe what you want.

[Hobbit]

[quote name='Gordonmom']
Your pups dying of E. coli has nothing to do with dying of a food born illness, which is what people are suggesting with a BARF diet. E. coli is not a food born illness. [color=red][b]WHAT?? YES, it can be food borne. [/b][/color]It is a fecal contamination illness. And it was the age of your pups that caused the illness, not the E.coli, given the fact that the mother did not die. I never once suggested that dogs did not get bacterial diseases. [color=red][b]AGAIN -- it was stated because of your question concerning E. coli. [/b][/color]

And again, unless you do a culture, [color=red][b]***READ MY POST *** [/b][/color]there is no way of knowing that the food born illness that your dog has was Salmonella. None. period. And unless you took that wrapping that the piece of meat was in, and cultured that also, you could not prove anything. And unless you can tell me that everytime your dogs have an intestional problem you do a culture to find the exact nature of what is causing the problem, again, I will have to take what you say with a grain of salt, because how can you possibly assume which of many organisms is causing the disease just by looking at symptoms? [color=red][b]Yes, when you have ELEVEN dogs get sick ---- one does tend to make sure of what the cause is. Or at least, I do because I want to be able to catch it early and not before it's too late. [/b][/color]

Again, you guys can believe what you want. Why are YOU so sure that none of this actually happened? [color=red][b]Do you think that I am lying here to make a point --- NOT my style, nor my integrity, PERIOD. [/b][/color][/quote]

[Hobbit]

Escherichia coli O157:H7 is an emerging cause of foodborne illness. An estimated 73,000 cases of infection and 61 deaths occur in the United States each year. Infection often leads to bloody diarrhea, and occasionally to kidney failure. Most illness has been associated with eating undercooked, contaminated ground beef. Person-to-person contact in families and child care centers is also an important mode of transmission. Infection can also occur after drinking raw milk and after swimming in or drinking sewage-contaminated water.

Consumers can prevent E. coli O157:H7 infection by thoroughly cooking ground beef, avoiding unpasteurized milk, and washing hands carefully.
Because the organism lives in the intestines of healthy cattle, preventive measures on cattle farms and during meat processing are beinginvestigated.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

What is Escherichia coli O157:H7?

E. coli O157:H7 is one of hundreds of strains of the bacterium Escherichia coli. Although most strains are harmless and live in the intestines of healthy humans and animals, this strain produces a powerful toxin and can cause severe illness.

E. coli O157:H7 was first recognized as a cause of illness in 1982 during an outbreak of severe bloody diarrhea; the outbreak was traced to contaminated hamburgers. Since then, most infections have come from eating undercooked ground beef.

The combination of letters and numbers in the name of the bacterium refers to the specific markers found on its surface and distinguishes it from other types of E. coli.



How is E. coli O157:H7 spread?

The organism can be found on a small number of cattle farms and can live in the intestines of healthy cattle. Meat can become contaminated during slaughter, and organisms can be thoroughly mixed into beef when it is ground. Bacteria present on the cow's udders or on equipment may get into raw milk.

Eating meat, especially ground beef, that has not been cooked sufficiently to kill E. coli O157:H7 can cause infection. Contaminated meat looks and smells normal. Although the number of organisms required to cause disease is not known, it is suspected to be very small.

Among other known sources of infection are consumption of sprouts, lettuce, salami, unpasteurized milk and juice, and swimming in or drinking sewage-contaminated water.

Bacteria in diarrheal stools of infected persons can be passed from one person to another if hygiene or handwashing habits are inadequate.
This is particularly likely among toddlers who are not toilet trained. Family members and playmates of these children are at high risk of becoming infected.

Young children typically shed the organism in their feces for a week or two after their illness resolves. Older children rarely carry the organism without symptoms.



What illness does E. coli O157:H7 cause?

E. coli O157:H7 infection often causes severe bloody diarrhea and abdominal cramps; sometimes the infection causes nonbloody diarrhea or no symptoms. Usually little or no fever is present, and the illness resolves in 5 to 10 days.

In some persons, particularly children under 5 years of age and the elderly, the infection can also cause a complication called hemolytic uremic syndrome, in which the red blood cells are destroyed and the kidneys fail. About 2%-7% of infections lead to this complication. In the United States, hemolytic uremic syndrome is the principal cause of acute kidney failure in children, and most cases of hemolytic uremic syndrome are caused by E. coli O157:H7.



How is E. coli O157:H7 infection diagnosed?

Infection with E. coli O157:H7 is diagnosed by detecting the bacterium in the stool. Most laboratories that culture stool do not test for E. coli O157:H7, so it is important to request that the stool specimen be tested on sorbitol-MacConkey (SMAC) agar for this organism. All persons who suddenly have diarrhea with blood should get their stool tested for E. coli O157:H7.



How is the illness treated?

Most persons recover without antibiotics or other specific treatment in 5-10 days. There is no evidence that antibiotics improve the course of disease, and it is thought that treatment with some antibiotics may precipitate kidney complications. Antidiarrheal agents, such as loperamide (Imodium), should also be avoided.

Hemolytic uremic syndrome is a life-threatening condition usually treated in an intensive care unit. Blood transfusions and kidney dialysis are often required. With intensive care, the death rate for hemolytic uremic syndrome is 3%-5%.



What are the long-term consequences of infection?

Persons who only have diarrhea usually recover completely.

About one-third of persons with hemolytic uremic syndrome have abnormal kidney function many years later, and a few require long-term dialysis. Another 8% of persons with hemolytic uremic syndrome have other lifelong complications, such as high blood pressure, seizures, blindness, paralysis, and the effects of having part of their bowel removed.



What can be done to prevent the infection?

E. coli O157:H7 will continue to be an important public health concern as long as it contaminates meat. Preventive measures may reduce the number of cattle that carry it and the contamination of meat during slaughter and grinding. Research into such prevention measures is just beginning.



What can you do to prevent E. coli O157:H7 infection?

Cook all ground beef and hamburger thoroughly. Because ground beef can turn brown before disease-causing bacteria are killed, use a digital instant-read meat thermometer to ensure thorough cooking. Ground beef should be cooked until a thermometer inserted into several parts of the patty, including the thickest part, reads at least 160

[Hobbit]

GREYHOUNDS PROVIDE MODEL FOR E. COLI FOOD POISONING IN HUMANS

MANHATTAN -- In racing greyhounds, it's called Alabama Rot; in people, E. coli food poisoning or hemolytic uremic syndrome. Both can cause acute renal failure, sometimes death, and both are believed caused by the E. coli bacteria.

Brad Fenwick and Laine Cowan, veterinarians at Kansas State University's College of Veterinary Medicine, believe the similarity of the diseases between greyhounds and humans will provide a major step in researching the diseases caused by the deadly bacteria Escherichia coli, commonly known as E. coli. The bacteria is common to the environment and can be found in undercooked or raw ground meat.

"The disease in greyhounds appears to be the best model of the human disease. Using dogs as a model, we will be able to gain a better understanding of the underlying disease process, innovative approaches to treatment, and hopefully ways to prevent hemolytic uremic syndrome. It will allow us to conduct studies that simply have not been possible previously," said Fenwick, associate professor of veterinary pathology.

The greyhound disease was first recognized at a greyhound race track in Alabama, although now it occurs nationwide. Racing greyhounds are fed raw ground meat which makes them prime candidates for E. coli exposure. E. Coli food poisoning in humans also is caused by eating poorly cooked meat. The hemolytic uremic syndrome is a life-threatening disease and the most common cause of acute kidney failure in infants and children. Adults, adolescents and newborns also can be infected.

In research on "Alabama Rot" in greyhounds, Cowan found a striking similarity between the changes in the kidneys of infected greyhounds and humans with hemolytic uremic syndrome.

"In dogs, because the blood supply to the skin also is affected, the disease usually starts with ulcers on the skin. Like in humans, some of the dogs also have kidney failure due to blockage of the blood supply to part of the kidney," said Cowan, assistant professor of small animal medicine. "Humans don't get the skin form, but when the disease advances to the kidney failure stage in both humans and dogs it is almost identical."

The problem with E. coli infection is that there is no cure, Fenwick said. "The toxins produced by the bacteria attack the cell lining of the blood vessels. When people and dogs are infected there is no specific therapy. Only the symptoms such as diarrhea and dehydration can be treated. That's why the discovery of an animal model is so important."

Cowan and Fenwick began researching the greyhounds in 1993. Sick greyhounds from around the country were referred to the K-State veterinary clinic for care. Only recently have K-State researchers discovered what was causing the disease in the dogs.

"We found that antibiotics and anti-inflammatory drugs have no recognizable effect," Fenwick said. "But the good news is, like in humans, the dogs respond to supportive care."

Supportive care can involve intravenous fluids, transfusions and dialysis, the same treatment provided to children with hemolytic uremic syndrome.

This research is supported by a grant from the Kansas Racing Commission and the National Greyhound Racing Association.

[Horsefeathers!]

[quote name='Gordonmom']And again, unless you do a culture, there is no way of knowing that the food born illness that your dog has was Salmonella.[/quote]


Then you must have assumed there was no culture done (in my case). Next?

[Hobbit]

Veterinary Research
ISSN : 0928-4249

1999 - Volume 30 - Num

[corgilady]

When we speak from personal experience, we are sharing from the heart. We are speaking (here) of a subject that we are passionate about (our dogs). We are adamant when we want to prevent someone else from being exposed to the heartbreak we (I mean Hobbit and Horsefeathers) have encountered. Scientific explanations aside, we love our dogs and want to protect them in the best way that we can. For some, that means a raw diet becuase that is what makes sense [b]based on our experience.[/b] For others, a kibble, for one or more of many possible reasons.

Our personalities also come into play here; some of us are more research-oriented. Some prefer the "tried-and true". Some want to come on the forum and be spoon-fed a "black and white" answer. There isn't one.

Some of us have a science background; others get the deer-in-the-headlights look at some of the ingredients listed on the back of a dogfood bag.

I know that, in the case of my dogs, they have always been very healthy. Changing their diet was never an issue, until I came on this board and learned about ingredients in their kibble. I did change kibbles. I have not yet gone to BARF ([b]JCB in all your slights of me, you have yet to ask me what I feed my dogs. You have assumed that I BARF when I do not[/b].). For one thing, I haven't found a place locally to get bones. Also, I am still sifting through all this info....salmonella....e coli.....yes they can....no they can't.... and when I get to my decision I will be very, very sure of what I am doing.

As far as the illnesses, I can tell you one thing from my own experience. I have had both e coli and another illness.....darned if the name has escaped me but it is usually only found in kids under age 5.....both times I was REALLY REALLY REALLY SICK. Both times I was told that I had most likely picked it up AT THE POOL(on vacation) OR IN THE RESTROOM (beside the pool) where people changed their kids diapers. ewwwww. As an almost obsessive handwasher, this was quite a surprise. But both times I had observed mothers changing their kids diapers outside on a lounge chair, in a not-so-clean manner, if you get my drift.

So you see where I am headed...based on MY experience, I would not want to feed my dogs something that would give them such a debilitating illness....hence we are still on kibble.

Whew.....such a long-winded way to say, could we please respect others' opinions, and lets not have an argument, and germs CAN and DO show up where they are not supposed to.

And HF, I really like you....at least what I know of you :wink: and I enjoy your posts. But that gd word really really bothers me so could we leave it out? Thanks!!!!!!!

[Hobbit]

Corgilady -- WELL said.

Was it Shigella or Rotavirus? Make you feel like death would be better? Nasty stuff.

[deepseasnake]

[quote]don't understand your 200ppm/100ml, because ppm I assume stands for parts per million multiplied per 100 ml, that's an awful lot of acceptable bacteria. Do you mean 200 CFU/100ml? Water E.coli around here is registered by parts per billion, not parts per millions, so I guess I am not getting you. [/quote]

I have nothing to do with microbiology or anything of the sort but when I got my certification for contaminated water decon and construction we measure everything by ppm not ppb so maybe its something totally different but Washington State only requires a ppm done and we do have to test for some common strains of E coli

Before this very interesting debate between Gordon and Hobbit started I never got a chance to respond to JC, I am not gonna say much,

JC you stopped asking questions for science a long time ago I've seen you say the same stuff over and over and over again. You are also not remaining open minded (I truly question if you ever were), you are a self-admitted b!tch and are living up to your description quite well.
You keep saying nobody gives me any info but newfie and K, yet you don

[deepseasnake]

my last was a bit late, it all pretty much still applies just tone it down abit :)

[Horsefeathers!]

Corgilady, what gd word? :o




[size=2]Please forgive my abruptness. I sometimes have a short fuse, too.[/size] :oops:

[Gordonmom]

Hobbit, just because you can read from a book, does not mean you are up to knowledge on everything. You should have read up on E.coli O:157 BEFORE you started telling me about your dogs dying of just plain E. coli. And i assume you ment the bacterial E. coli and not the ameobic E. coli, which can also be found in water. Why don't you now read about that and regurgitate it for the board?

[Hobbit]

[quote name='Gordonmom']Hobbit, just because you can read from a book, does not mean you are up to knowledge on everything. You should have read up on E.coli O:157 BEFORE you started telling me about your dogs dying of just plain E. coli. And i assume you ment the bacterial E. coli and not the ameobic E. coli, which can also be found in water. Why don't you now read about that and regurgitate it for the board?[/quote]


Gordonmom -- Just WHAT is up your a$$ about me? Are you still stewing over having your intelligence questioned on our genetics debate?

I posted the book stuff for you, because you are so sure that E. coli (used in a generic sense --- but if YOU want scientific terms, then lets get after it) is NOT food borne and something that just doesn't exist .... very much.

My scratch match is OVER with you, because it is YOU that is lacking.

[Horsefeathers!]

Let's see what the score is...

That would be TWO totally different individuals with absolutely no stake in this other than concern for our dogs' health, with scientific PROOF that salmonella/e. coli poisoning CAN happen to dogs (don't forget about that culture that was harped on... still haven't heard back about that) and ONE person saying that it CANNOT happen, with NO scientific data to back that up.

Sound about right? I mean, you [b][u]are[/b][/u] saying it CAN NOT and DOES NOT happen, right?

[Gordonmom]

Horsefeathers, exactly what are you talking about. This is not research. There needs to be no scientific data. Go read a text book. Read the text book that Hobbit wrote. Go look it up on the internet. Take a beginner class in microbiology The fact is, Eschericia coli is not a food born pathogen. It is an opportunistic pathogen. Do you have any idea how much E. coli you drink in apple cider? ALL un-pasteurized apple cider. It just becomes part of your normal stool flora, unless you are young, old, immuno-compromized. Then it probably will just give you a stomach ache. Unless you have no immune system.

The fact is, E. coli O:157 IS a food pathogen, and only a food pathogen. It is a toxin producer which makes it so deadly. It is found in raw meat, amonst other things. If E.coli O:157 is found in your apple cider you get very sick and probably die. No matter WHO you are.

Entoameoba coli is an amaebae that is also an intestional pathogen, and found in water. It causes diarhea and stomach upset.

Personally I have nothing against you Hobbit. But again, just because you have an extensive research library that you can quote from does not mean that you know what you are talking about. Most of what you said about genetics came from quoting from a book. I don't know how much you actually know about genetics. From a breeding stand-point you are a genius and are more well informed that 99.9% of the breeders out there. From a biochemical standpoint I am not so sure.

I do know that just because you had eleven dogs that had Salmonella and you have a microbiology reference book does not make you even close to knowledgeable about bacteria, no matter how good a game you talk.

I have conceded in an earlier post that I am not a genetist, and I defer to whatever opinion you may have on that subject. But to take me on in microbiology, you better know what you are talking about.

And as for eveyone else, believe what you want to believe. As for me, I will continue to go to work every friggen day and do bacterial cultures that come in from doctors and report out patient results with the knowledge that these poor patients would have been better served by being diagnosed from a dog message board.

[corgilady]

[quote name='Horsefeathers!']Corgilady, what gd word? :o
[/quote]

:D haha....thanks horsefeathers!

[quote][size=2]Please forgive my abruptness. I sometimes have a short fuse, too.[/size] :oops: [/quote] Hey no problem....so do I.


ROTAVIRUS!.....Hobbit....I had that one. had other viruses at the same time. My immune system is not that of a normal person. :oops: I catch everything.

[Horsefeathers!]

[quote name='Gordonmom']Horsefeathers, exactly what are you talking about. This is not research. There needs to be no scientific data. Go read a text book. Read the text book that Hobbit wrote. Go look it up on the internet.[/quote]

Now you are not even making sense. First you are [u][b]against[/u][/b] Hobbitt "regurgitating" "research" and now you point to it as having some credibility. Which is it?

You know what? Nevermind. I know this game. Basically, if you can't baffle them with brilliance, befuddle them with bullcookies. Keep on. This is hardly worth the time. I, and several other people, have asked you repeatedly to back your claims and prove us wrong, but all you offer is sarcasm and dreck. You still never answered the simple yes or no question I posed. By the way, YOU are arguing on the same "dog message board" that you are whining about.

Forget about it. You've proven your point.

[gooeydog]

:o Such violence in the world today :lol:

[Horsefeathers!]

[img]http://www.groomers.org/discus/messages/91/12238.jpg[/img]


[size=6]Sorry! I couldn't resist! I saw that today and it just cracked me up and this looked like the perfect place for an "intermission."[/size]

[img]http://www.groomers.org/discus/messages/91/12241.gif[/img]

[Hobbit]

Most excellent, funny, appropriate, and to the point.

[Gordonmom]

Horsefeathers, I have spent 6 years in college and 25 years working as a microbiologist to know what I know today. If you cannot accept this then I really don't care. Go to school if you want research on bacteria. I also can spot when someone else is trying to BS me, and who thinks they know something about something when they really don't. If you don't know that they don't know what they are talking about they sound pretty impressive.

Again, just because you can look something up and post it, does not mean you understand it. I can guarentee that most of what Hobbit prints she does not understand. That print about E.coil O:157 is like taking a passage out of the Bible. Without reading and understanding the whole thing you can interpret the portion that you choose. But I see you don't really care about understanding.

There are enzymes in human saliva that start the digestion of food along with the molars in humans. Give a human a hunk of meat, and he will chew it and mix it with the saliva. Give a dog a piece of meat, and he will swallow it whole. If I give my dogs a bowl of dog food they "wolf it down" this food still gets digested. A dog will break down something, like a bone, until it is small enough to pass down his throat. That is why dogs sometimes choke on rawhides. If you want research on this you are going to have to take the time to look it up yourself. Or you can just watch your dog.

This board has reduced itself to mockery for some unknown reason, and I certainly no longer care to be a part of it. Think what you may, but if you consider yourselves to be any better than the people on barking buddies you are mistaken.

[Guest Anonymous]

Okay I need the couch from Maniac..... I am not on any side here as I love to read the posts...I feel both Hobbit and Gordonmom are very knowledgeable and feel very strongly about what they are saying...

I have so research to do......

Gordonmom please hang around.... :wink:

[Guest Anonymous]

Hobbit your female got E coli from a water source right?

So was it the Entoameoba coli ?

It is a question not meant for any other purpose....

[Hobbit]

[quote name='Gordonmom']Horsefeathers, I have spent 6 years in college and 25 years working as a microbiologist to know what I know today. If you cannot accept this then I really don't care. Go to school if you want research on bacteria. I also can spot when someone else is trying to BS me, and who thinks they know something about something when they really don't. If you don't know that they don't know what they are talking about they sound pretty impressive.

Again, just because you can look something up and post it, does not mean you understand it. I can guarentee that most of what Hobbit prints she does not understand. That print about E.coil O:157 is like taking a passage out of the Bible. Without reading and understanding the whole thing you can interpret the portion that you choose. But I see you don't really care about understanding. [color=red][b]Dear Lord, here we go AGAIN -- get off my butt. I, TOO, have a college degree. I, TOO, have a double major. I have a MASTERS degree from an accedited college. Currently, I am pursuing a PhD degree --- not in business, not in computer science, BUT IN SCIENCE, I WORK IN MY FIELD OF STUDY ---S C I E N C E --- I HAVE HAD SEVERAL BIOLOGY CLASSES, INCLUDING MICROBIOLOGY! MY GRADE POINT AVERAGE FOR UNDERGRAD WAS A 3.6 OVERALL AND A 4.0 IN MY MAJOR --- SO BITE ME! KEEP YOUR SARCASTIC REMARKS TO YOURSELF.[/b][/color][/quote]

[Hobbit]

[quote name='Gordonmom']

This board has reduced itself to mockery for some unknown reason, and I certainly no longer care to be a part of it. Think what you may, but if you consider yourselves to be any better than the people on barking buddies you are mistaken.[/quote]


It's NOT the board, it's you and your sarcasm (and now it's ME and my sarcasm). Why can't YOU just let it go. Do you want ME to admit YOU were right? [b][color=red]Okay, for the boards sake....... [/color][/b]YOU ARE RIGHT, YOU ARE RIGHT, YOU ARE MORE INTELLIGENT THAN ANYONE HERE, YOU ARE RIGHT, YOU ARE RIGHT. Satisfied?? Now, I have reduced myself to the lowest level of ignorance --- over what? Over a freakin' pathology report that SAYS "[i]E. COLI[/i]".

You frequent Barking Buddies, so --- don't throw rocks at glass houses. If you don't like it here, then leave --- over what? OVER A FREAKIN' PATHOLOGY REPORT THAT SAYS, "[i]E. COLI[/i]".