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kendalyn

Best Breeder?

44 posts in this topic

[quote name='AllAmericanPUP'][quote name='SizzleDog'][quote]I dont even want to see how most show dogs are kept at home..poor dogs. [/quote][/quote]

I know there are show people out there who do care about their dogs and their dogs are treated like royalty, but there are just as many who do the exact opposite.
[/quote]
Thats how it is for ALL dogs, not just show dogs. Some have fabulous homes, some terrible. Thats nothing special for show dogs.

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[quote name='odnarb']This is the only 2 time (1999 & 2000) UKC National Grand Champion winner ever. Check out these wonky ears :D

[img]http://www.napbta.com/2000ntlgrch.jpg[/img][/quote]

OMD, that is so cool! Natural ears :)

Harry is so gorgeous! Good luck with him!

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So we all agree for the most part that a responsible breeder has maybe one or two litters a year. Since this woman has been breeding for about 40 years, it is ALSO entirely possible that she did only breed once a year regardless of what was acceptable and standard practice back then. What I was saying about the breeding back then is that they didn't have all the testing and other resources that we have now to help determine quality. ( OFA, CERF, etc.) They had to rely on the actual breeding. The world evolves. Many things that are acceptable and standard paractice now, won't be in 40 years.( And that relates to everything, not just dog related.) I know for a fact that the Dobeman Club of America is one of the most strictly run clubs in the US. They have a longevity program, a working aptitude program, a health foundation, a rescue and population control program, a program that's trying to educate and wipe out the breeding of albinos, a public education program.

Oh and someone mentioned Sieger shows. They aren't just for GSDs, I know Rottweilers compete in them too. Not sure of what other breeds do though.

Dogo is supposed to be a place for ALL dog lovers from all walks of life, purebred and mixed, show and rescue. As I said before if this kind of all inclusive bashing was going on about rescue and mixed breeds, there would be a riot. Maybe this is why some of our purebred showing members left, they didn't feel welcome to openly discuss thier side of the dog world without getting it bashed from one side to the other, even though they weren't doing anything wrong. In my opinion, yes there are some bad people who show, but there are bad apples in every bunch everywhere, in all aspects of the dog world, recuers who become hoarders for instance, but do I post stories about them in threads related to rescue? No.

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I agree with Corrie, and would like to add that there is more to a dog than its working ability. A dog can't work if it's dead from cardio at the age of two.


But yeah - let's all just step away and take some deep breaths - we're all friends here.

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I think 150 dogs is a pretty large number to wrap your brain around, especially if you're figuring on only one or two CHs out of each litter (not saying that's the case). That may be why some people are so put off by it. One the other hand, I could see a breeder possibly having 150 dogs CH out in 40 years without mass producing, so without really knowing the whole story, I'm not about to draw conclusions.

I was a bit perturbed by reading some fo the responses here, especially those by some other APBT owners...

[quote name='AllAmericanPUP']If I were to buy a dog from a breeder(wich i wont) i would buy from straight up working lines.[/quote]
There are working dog breeders just as bad as the worst show breeders, you can't just paint along with a wide brush and generalize. Sad when we complain about it when it happens to our beloved breed, yet are so quick to do so about someone elses breed/sport.

[quote]a dog being a champion IS a joke[/quote]
How many dogs have you finished? Or finished dogs have you owned? If none, then how are you qualified to judge?

[quote]I dont even want to see how most show dogs are kept at home..poor dogs.[/quote]
How many high drive working dogs are kept kenneled except for that hour or two a day they're being worked/conditioned? Is that any way to live?

Again, note the similarities between this:
[quote]the thing is, is I have seen it.
alot are kept it kennels 24/7 and only cared for when it's time to show.
alot of em dont even know what a dang toy is...that's just sad

I know there are show people out there who do care about their dogs and their dogs are treated like royalty, but there are just as many who do the exact opposite.

too many people only show for the "fame"[/quote]

and this:
[quote]the thing is, is I have seen it.
alot are kept on chains 24/7 and only cared for when it's time to fight.
alot of em dont even know what a dang toy is...that's just sad

I know there are pit bull people out there who do care about their dogs and their dogs are treated like royalty, but there are just as many who do the exact opposite.

too many people only own them for the ego[/quote]

The first is the argument you make against showing dogs, the second is the typical argument pro-BSL people make for banning pit bulls and other breeds.

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my Foxhound is a field trialed "champion" in shows put on the by local Hunt Clubs. Nothing as prestigious as the AKC, or Westminster, or Crufts.
She is not perfect by any means. Nor is she quality conformation material.
I dont see that makes her ill bred, she is healthy and has lived a decent life. Some people devote their whole lives to showing their dogs. As I said before, I have hear good things about the breeder that won the award, and 150 ch doesnt seem that high over 40 years. And like was
mentioned, 40 years ago alot less was known about proper breeding than
is known now. The science wasnt available to do the testing they can do now. we're talking 1965....color TV hadnt even been around that long at that point....so perhaps back then what she was doing would now be considered wrong, but at the time was perfectly acceptable because no
one knew any better. As an example, back then cigarette ads were allowed on TV, and children were allowed to buy them with a note from their parents at the corner drug store. My dad smoked, and often sent us with a note to the store to pick some up for him. No one knew about the cancer risks from second hand smoke, no one cared that teenagers smoked because there was no proof yet that it caused any harm.
you see my point? we cant hold her guilty today for something she did
40 years ago when there was no proof what she was doing was wrong.

things change constantly over time. we cant look back on all the "bad" things that were done and hold those people responsible today.
as long as they have learned from the newer technology and are practicing the safety standards, I cant declare them guilty of past wrongs.

the only "crimes" with no statutes of limitations are ones where it has been known forever that the offense was a crime, like murder.

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what's all the hoopla about?

i just looked up the website of the breeder and what she has to say about her breeding program, [url]http://www.marienburg-dobermans.com/section1.htm[/url]

over 150 champions in 40 years? i agree that at first glance that looks to be a big number, but if you calculate it based on an average number of 8 pups in a litter, and assume even just 1/4 of the puppies per litter will turn out champion material, that's still just 1.8 litters per year - and from my understanding this woman also works together with another breeder.

from the site:

[i]In 1962 I added to my Doberman family and had my first litter in 1963 from my first female who would later become a champion named, Zigeuner's Fiesta. From this first litter were whelped two who would become the first Marienburg Champions, Dorian and Gretchen.

...

Although not prolific her last puppy she produced became the top producer, Ch. Marienburg's Only One (dam of 15 champions) when bred to Ch. Marienburg's Red Baron.

...

Sun Hawk sired 85 American Champions, was number one Doberman during 1975 and 1976.

...

Dexter sired 30 American Champions and died at 12+ years in 1997.

...

Teller sired 19 American Champions. Among these was Ch. Aquarius Damien of Ravenswood who won 50 + Best in Shows and DPCA Best of Breed and two red Champion females which I kept. They were Ch. Marienburg's Love Potion who is the current dam of 9 champions and still more who will finish their championship and Ch. Marienburg's Coral Pendant.

...

Love Potion was bred to Luthor as well and gave me a wonderful litter in which one is finished and two are close to finishing.[/i]

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There are show people here. There are responsible breeders here. There are people who will probably become show people and possible breeders. There are people here who believe showing is for the betterment of the breeds.

There are people here who believe show dogs and/or purebreds in general are inbred messes and that the AKC ruins breeds. There are people here who think that any breeding of dogs is irresponsible because of the pet (over)population.

These are facts (that these people exist on this board). We know it. It comes up all the time. It shouldn't always have to result in a gigantic clash where people feel personally insulted. But almost always does. Why?? Why can't people just answer a question to the best of their ability without going off on some tangent that's certain to offend someone?

I've said my fair share of stuff against the AKC, and I will continue to, but there's a time and a place. If someone had said "Why doesn't my GSD look like the one in the show ring? Her back's not all funny like that..." Well then fine, [i]answer them[/i]. But there's no need to turn every post involving purebreds into an attack and make horrific blanket statements. Valuable members have left because of this. It's sad.

Know what's cool? When the Bloodhound won Viewer's Choice for BIS, and 10,000 was to be given to the Bloodhound's AKC Club, the handler immediately said that that was great, and they could use it to study genetic problems in the breed and how to ensure a healthier future for the breed. Tell me he doesn't care about anything but the fame.

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y'know what else is cool? that the Bloodhound won in both choices, the judges and the people...


HOUNDS RULE!!

(just kidding.....I had to say it, I couldnt help it really...


(Mutts, I had to do it. I know you're not fond of them... :lol: :lol: :lol: )

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[quote name='courtnek'](Mutts, I had to do it. I know you're not fond of them... :lol: :lol: :lol: )[/quote]

HEY! I already said I was happy about it!!!

I like Bloodhounds. My uncle has two, they're awesome. I just wouldn't one one in my neighborhood, let alone my house ;)

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[quote]Oh and someone mentioned Sieger shows. They aren't just for GSDs, I know Rottweilers compete in them too. Not sure of what other breeds do though.[/quote]

I know, but these are breed specific shows, the siegershow for the GSD only has GSD, the rottweiler has a siegershow aswel, dobermanns too.

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I just wanted to say that these conformation shows exist primarily to evaluate and reward excellent breeding stock. The dogs are not winning because they are "pretty", they win because they closely or exactly match a very stringent set of standards written by the parent breed club, which illustrate how a dog is to be put together, and how its temperament should be, to properly and successfully accomplish the task it is meant to perform. These standards have often remained unchanged for decades. For example, my Pyr is by no means "show quality". Her front and rear angulation is very straight. Which is fine for living a life of relative luxury in my city home :wink: but would not give her the proper flexibility of movement needed on the steep slopes of the Pyrenees. I really don't think it is a waste of time to pursue a better dog, and those championship points do mean something.

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[quote name='hillside']Dogo is supposed to be a place for ALL dog lovers from all walks of life, purebred and mixed, show and rescue. As I said before if this kind of all inclusive bashing was going on about rescue and mixed breeds, there would be a riot. .[/quote]

Hear, hear! This kind of anti-purebred, anti-dog show stuff is going on on more than one board I post on, and I don't care for it. I happen to own purebred dogs by choice... and I like mixed breed dogs just fine, I just happen to choose purebreds for myself. I am somewhat involved in the world of dog showing, though I plan to retire my bitch without any AKC points, as it's proving too difficult to get them on her (she's a nice bitch, but entirely different from what is shown around here, and I'm not willing to send her out with a handler) There are bad things in the world of dog shows, but there are good things too, and I don't like the bashing. My bitch is not any less of an excellent dog just because she is from a long line of dogs bred for the show ring.

In regards to the Bloodhound who won the Eukanuba show, I've heard from people who know the handler that he is an extremely nice guy, always helpful and considerate of everyone. So, I'm glad the Bloodhound won.

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