Im more and more disappointed all the time

[BuddysMom]

I don't think anyone here is directing malice at responsible breeders, or at people who buy purebreds from responsible breeders. It's just something I could never do.

When there is room for another dog in my life it is the greatest joy imaginable to go to the shelter and adopt. To me, buying a puppy, no matter how incredibly responsibly bred, wouldn't even come close in terms of my satisfaction OR the quality of dog I could get.

Now other people feel differently, and that is fine. :)

[BuddysMom]

I also want to add to my last post, that my interest is companionship, maybe in addition obedience / CGC / therapy dog which do not require specialized breeding.

If I were raising sheep, showing, advanced agility, hunting waterfowl, etc etc then I would probably look into a purebred. So I don't mean to sound like a "rescue snob" ... it's just that mutts are great for MY interests. 8)

[Guest Anonymous]

Don’t you think your anger and frustration toward breeders are misplaced?

Breeders are not the ones who put these dogs in shelters. It is the PEOPLE who buy them. If people were not looking for a certain breed and characteristics, and were not willing to pay hundreds or even thousands of dollars for one, breeders wouldn’t be breeding. Breeders just supply the demand. Besides, pure bred dogs make up only about

[bk_blue]

Supply doesn't exist without demand. So if there are people looking for a certain type of dog then a BYB will step in. So yes, the ignorance of people plays a part, but they wouldn't be able to access a BYB if they didn't exist. They would be forced to shell out a fair bit more cash for a properly bred dog, or look towards breed rescue, or adopt a shelter animal.

[pyrless]

I think that some of this is poTAYto vs. poTAHto :D ie different people want different things from their dogs and therefore go to different sources to acquire them. Neither of these things is wrong. I agree of course with the responsible breeder arguments.

[Guest Anonymous]

Norma/futa/Crazy broad- what possible input can you add to a conversation involving responsible breeding practices? You are a BYB, and add nothing to the dogs you breed except helping with the overpopulation of dogs in shelters and unsound dogs.
SO, any anger and frustration anyone shows about irresponsible breeders IS directed toward someone like yourself.

[BuddysMom]

Oh futa is Norma, now it all makes sense. Good call Hmmmm.

[Guest Anonymous]

I would like to add one thing concerning this...

futa/norma/crazy broad said:[quote]Breeders are not the ones who put these dogs in shelters. It is the PEOPLE who buy them.[/quote]
It is the BREEDERS responsibility to make sure the dogs go to people who are serious about owning a dog and being a responsible owner. Any responsible breeder will have it in a contract if the person who bought the dog cannot keep it the dog will go back to the breeder. So, I dont blame the people who buy them then decide they cant handle the dog. I blame the IRRESPONSIBLE breeder who sold it to them... Say, someone like yourself.
As a breeder I know where every single puppy that has ever left my yard is. I know what kind of health they are in, what kind of home they are in and everything else. I have had one returned and none have ever seen the walls of a shelter. The one that was returned was because the people were moving to a place where APBTs are illegal to own. That dog is now living with a friend of mine waiting to see if his previous owners are going to stay where they are or if he will have a chance to be with them again.

[quote]Blaming breeders for overpopulation problem is like blaming gun manufacturers for a gang drive by shooting, or a drug dealer for someone addiction, or GM for drunk driving or Macdonald for making Rossi O’Donnell fat.[/quote]
Breeders (irresponsible breeders that is) arent the ones suppling the guns, but the ones pulling the trigger, doing the drugs, and eating McDonalds. If people like you werent out there breeding your p.o.s. dogs there wouldnt be dogs to send to the shelter.

One more thing... When you talk about breeders dont include myself and responsible breeders in with what you say. You know nothing of responsible breeding.

[pyrless]

aaaah, now, it is not the dog's fault they are "p.o.s.", that is a little harsh.

[Guest Anonymous]

[quote name='newfiemom']Don't you know Hmmmm, it's hard to keep track of your puppies when you breed 12 litters a year. :roll:[/quote]
Yeah. no crap.

[quote]aaaah, now, it is not the dog's fault they are "p.o.s.", that is a little harsh.[/quote]
Im not blaming the dogs for anything.... and I dont think its harsh to let someone know they are breeding dogs that shouldnt be bred. You get what you breed.

[pyrless]

sigh.
I didn't mean it was harsh to tell her so, I agree with you wholeheartedly there. What I meant was that like or not how they were brought into this world, those dogs are just as deserving of love and care from us. Granted it may take more commitment to deal with possible health or temperament issues, but you can't send them back.

[Guest Anonymous]

I dont disagree, I think any and all dogs should get some love and care BUT that is exactly why she continues to breed....

[pyrless]

eee. that is a good point, I see what you are saying, and I certainly do not condone those type of breeding practices. Sigh. In a perfect world...That's the thing that kills me. The puppies can't fight back, have no voice, no access to the courts, etc. etc. :(

[__crazy_canine__]

Kiwi, I see that there are more important things and Im glad that your helping out. I also understand things can happen to disrupt a line but I still think once every two years is enough.
Im not overlooking that, I just think its stupid to be breeding a dog to be a pet when you can just as easily get a pet from a rescue or shelter. Now, it makes sense that you cant always get the working wuality your looking for in a shelter but there is pet quality there.

Futa, you are an idiot! :roll:

Also, you all say that responsible breeders arent the problem with overpopulation but if people didnt have breeders to go to, they would be getting them from shelters. Now, I agree that there are responsible breeders, but they are very rare.

I still dont see the need for breeds. :roll:

Ultimately, I know that BYBs and puppymills are the problem and if there werent any of these people, then responsible breeding would be fine to me... BUT they are a problem and thats not going to change any time soon so I think anyone breeding right now is adding to the problem whether theyd like to admit it or not.

[abker17]

[quote]Also, you all say that responsible breeders arent the problem with overpopulation but if people didnt have breeders to go to, they would be getting them from shelters. Now, I agree that there are responsible breeders, but they are very rare.[/quote]

... I see what you're saying but if the responsible breeders stopped breeding then we'd only have BYBs and puppy mills, because some people would still want a pure bred dog from a breeder.
There will NEVER be a day when everyone stops breeding dogs. I don't understand why you're even arguing that point, because it's never going to happen and isn't relevant.

[quote]I still dont see the need for breeds.[/quote]

Because there still are people who use the dogs for a specific purpose and need a dog best built for that purpose, a dog guaranteed to be healthy and have the drive and instict to do the job.


You know I love you CC, and I work in dog rescue too, I'm at the SPCA almost everyday and I see the same sad, abandoned faces you do. But the world will never be perfect and people will never, ever stop breeding. Instead of wasting time being angry and discussing a goal that is unrealistic, we need to focus on the next generation and educate them about the sad plight of these shelter dogs. What it means to be a responsible breeder so that people will go to them or a breed rescue, instead of a BYB or pet shop. Ignorance is the biggest plague of today, ignorance (and greed) are what's wiping out all these animals.

I still say that education will be better than any breeding ban the politicians set down.

[Malamum]

I’ve said it once, and I’ll say it again, Abker you really do have a sensible head on your shoulders. A big thumbs up to you.

[ESSlover]

[quote name='Malamum']I’ve said it once, and I’ll say it again, Abker you really do have a sensible head on your shoulders. A big thumbs up to you.[/quote]

Ditto to that. You are truly amazing, Abker. :wink:

[abker17]

[quote]I’ve said it once, and I’ll say it again, Abker you really do have a sensible head on your shoulders. A big thumbs up to you.[/quote]

[quote]Ditto to that. You are truly amazing, Abker.[/quote]


Thank you both so much :oops:. I really appreciate the kind words. :)

[Guest Anonymous]

Just curious, if I wasn’t the one who posted that, would you still have had the same reaction to my post?

Who are you to decide who should and should not have dogs, and who can and can not breed? It is not up to you or anyone else to decide that. As long as no laws are broken and the dogs are well treated, it is none of anybody’s business. If people want to fix or breed their dogs, it is up to them, not up to you. What make you so special that you think you can impose your will on others? “Responsible breeders” are just as guilty as the rest of us. If you breed, no matter who you are, you are just as “guilty” as me. Hmmmm, You of all people should know that. How many people think they know better and KNOW it is in the best interest of the public to ban APBT. Just like anything else, the market will regulate itself. If it doesn’t, then there is already a very effective solution for the problem. You may not like it, but it works.

The argument that breeders are the ones responsible for the dogs in the shelters and if breeders did not breed, then people will be forced to adopt dogs from the pound is seriously flawed. It doesn’t make sense. If you take all breeders out of the equation, then by your logic there wouldn’t be any dogs in the shelters. Then where would people get their dogs from? That is actually the agenda of the many AR groups, to get rid of all pet ownership. Unless of coarse, you do not include people who had an accident and produced mutts in the breeder category which are actually responsible for 75% of the dogs in shelters. If you claim that breeders are responsible, then you should include ALL breeders. Including those you may consider “responsible breeders”. By your logic., even if a “responsible breeder” can guarantee that none of their dogs will end up in a shelter, for every dog that they sell, there is one less dog that get adopted, and one more that may be killed. Can’t have it both ways.

Just to set the record straight, there is nothing wrong with my dogs. They are all perfect. Just because I have more dogs and litters then most of you, doesn’t say squat about the health, quality and temperament of my dogs. I sell ALL of my pups from my home. If I was as bad as you make me out to be, don’t you think people would see it? They come to my house, see my dogs and my kennel and 90% of the time they leave with a pup. That would not have happened if they all thought like you. Besides, if I was violating any laws, mistreating my dogs and producing “POS” pups, with the tough regulations and puppy lemon laws we have here in CA, the AC would have shut me down long ago.
I do accept any dog for any reason at any time. Whether or not people choose to do it and abide by the contract is beyond my control. No contract will change that.

Btw, didn’t you all decide to ignore me? What happened? You are not doing a very good job at that.

PS,
abker17, you probably wont like it, but I agree with you too.

[Malamum]

[quote name='abker17'][quote]I’ve said it once, and I’ll say it again, Abker you really do have a sensible head on your shoulders. A big thumbs up to you.[/quote]

[quote]Ditto to that. You are truly amazing, Abker.[/quote]


Thank you both so much :oops:. I really appreciate the kind words. :)[/quote]

Abker, I’m serious.

For someone your age you really seem to grasp the big picture and have common sense ideas, rather that extreme ideals that aren’t realistic out in the real world.

[Guest Anonymous]

[quote]Just curious, if I wasn’t the one who posted that, would you still have had the same reaction to my post?[/quote]

YES!

[quote]Who are you to decide who should and should not have dogs, and who can and can not breed? It is not up to you or anyone else to decide that. As long as no laws are broken and the dogs are well treated, it is none of anybody’s business. If people want to fix or breed their dogs, it is up to them, not up to you. What make you so special that you think you can impose your will on others? “Responsible breeders” are just as guilty as the rest of us.[/quote]

How is a responsible breeder who health screens, shows, breeds only once a year-if that much, screens homes, takes back dogs for life, offers a lifetime health/genetic warranty- even a fraction of responisble for the over population problem as you who produces 12 litters a YEAR??????

[quote] If you breed, no matter who you are, you are just as “guilty” as me.[/quote]

So Hmmmm who takes back dogs no matter what is responsible for her dogs being in shelters? DOn't see how. Only way I can figure this out is maybe that someone who might have adopted her breed decided to buy from her so one more died in a shelter.

[quote] Hmmmm, You of all people should know that. How many people think they know better and KNOW it is in the best interest of the public to ban APBT.[/quote]

No comparison. The breed bans are based on fear and ignorance. This arguement is based on any thing BUT those two things.

[quote] Just like anything else, the market will regulate itself. If it doesn’t, then there is already a very effective solution for the problem. You may not like it, but it works.[/quote]

I guess you are right here. I remember a woman who bred German SHort Hair Pointers (not something big here) who couldn't sell off the last 3 of a litter. She asked the rescue to take them. We did after SHE paid to have them fixed and brought up to date on shots. She quit breeding after not being able to sell that litter. To bad some people just don't care and as long as they sell one from a litter then can dump the rest at the shelters they will keep breeding.

[quote]The argument that breeders are the ones responsible for the dogs in the shelters and if breeders did not breed, then people will be forced to adopt dogs from the pound is seriously flawed. It doesn’t make sense. If you take all breeders out of the equation, then by your logic there wouldn’t be any dogs in the shelters. Then where would people get their dogs from? That is actually the agenda of the many AR groups, to get rid of all pet ownership. Unless of coarse, you do not include people who had an accident and produced mutts in the breeder category which are actually responsible for 75% of the dogs in shelters. If you claim that breeders are responsible, then you should include ALL breeders. Including those you may consider “responsible breeders”. By your logic., even if a “responsible breeder” can guarantee that none of their dogs will end up in a shelter, for every dog that they sell, there is one less dog that get adopted, and one more that may be killed. Can’t have it both ways. [/quote]

See I don't agree with a total ban on breeding...I do believe in RESPONSIBLE breeding and I believe breeding should be seriously regulated. I believe that there should be laws/regulations/certifiation however you wish to do it that limits the number of litters produced a year and that the breeder should have to do more than have a male and a female. I believe that all breeders should be required to health test, prove thier dogs are worthy of being bred either through conformation or performance events, and I seriously believe that all breeders should have to warranty their animals to be free of genetic defects for the life of the dog.

[quote]Just to set the record straight, there is nothing wrong with my dogs. They are all perfect. [/quote]

So I can go to the OFA website and see the results of all the genetic testing you have done on these dogs? I can contact the owners of your pups and ask them if their dogs have any health issues or behavioral/attitude issues.

[quote]Just because I have more dogs and litters then most of you, doesn’t say squat about the health, quality and temperament of my dogs. I sell ALL of my pups from my home. If I was as bad as you make me out to be, don’t you think people would see it? They come to my house, see my dogs and my kennel and 90% of the time they leave with a pup. That would not have happened if they all thought like you. Besides, if I was violating any laws, mistreating my dogs and producing “POS” pups, with the tough regulations and puppy lemon laws we have here in CA, the AC would have shut me down long ago. [/quote]

That is only if you aren't selling to impulse buyers, people who don't know any better. Lemon laws...how many people do you think really know about them? I'm in LA (and not Los Angeles) and here there are WAY to many people like you. See here Labs are literally a dime a dozen. You can drive down just about any street and see one running loose. You can go to any shelter/rescue and find them. In fact there is a group of people here who transport Labs up to the north east because there are just to many here for them to find good homes.


[quote]I do accept any dog for any reason at any time. Whether or not people choose to do it and abide by the contract is beyond my control. No contract will change that.[/quote] WRONG!!!!!! OH SO WRONG! A contract is a legally binding document. IF you actually kept tabs on your dogs you would find out what happened to them and be able to enforce the contract easily. I've done it once with a rescue and got the dog back quickly without going to court. I simply called a police officer to a location near the idiots home showed him the contract which we both had signed and then took him to the house to show him the conditions the dog was living in. He knocked on the door told them they had violated a contract and that they had two choices 1) turn the dog over now or 2) he would be sitting behind me in court. They chose option one.

[quote]Btw, didn’t you all decide to ignore me? What happened? You are not doing a very good job at that.[/quote]

I never said that.

Hey I've got a deal for you. Why don't I start pulling labs here getting them vetted and send them out to you since there are so many people in CA wanting Labs...all I ask is you pay me exactly what I pay the vet..in fact send payment direct to him. Then you can sell them all you want. Of course then all I"m doing is transfering a problem from one area to another because we all know you don't bother even asking anything other than "cash, check or charge".

[Guest Anonymous]

[quote]
I guess you are right here. I remember a woman who bred German SHort Hair Pointers (not something big here) who couldn't sell off the last 3 of a litter. She asked the rescue to take them. We did after SHE paid to have them fixed and brought up to date on shots. She quit breeding after not being able to sell that litter. To bad some people just don't care and as long as they sell one from a litter then can dump the rest at the shelters they will keep breeding. [/quote]

I can honestly say that I never dumped any of my dogs at a shelter. I find home for every pup I produce. If I had problem placing pups, I would cut back or quite. That day hadn’t come yet. In fact, I have several retired dogs that will never be bred again, and they all will stay with me until the day they die. I would not even consider adopting them out let alone turn them in to the pound.

[quote]
So I can go to the OFA website and see the results of all the genetic testing you have done on these dogs? I can contact the owners of your pups and ask them if their dogs have any health issues or behavioral/attitude issues.[/quote]

As I said in the thread that was deleted, you can't. A potential buyer is more then welcome.

[quote]
That is only if you aren't selling to impulse buyers, people who don't know any better. Lemon laws...how many people do you think really know about them? I'm in LA (and not Los Angeles) and here there are WAY to many people like you. See here Labs are literally a dime a dozen. You can drive down just about any street and see one running loose. You can go to any shelter/rescue and find them. In fact there is a group of people here who transport Labs up to the north east because there are just to many here for them to find good homes. [/quote]

Fortunately, where I am there is a high demand. I can sell a whole litter in 1-2 weeks. If I couldn't I would not be breeding. As I said, the laws here are though. Even thou many do not know about it, by law, as a licensed breeder I am required to give people a copy of the [url=http://www.dog-play.com/lemonlaw.html]California lemon law[/url] or I can be fined or even get my license revoked and lose my dogs. Not a chance I am willing to take. So if they do not know their rights before, they are well aware of them once they leave.

[quote]WRONG!!!!!! OH SO WRONG! A contract is a legally binding document. IF you actually kept tabs on your dogs you would find out what happened to them and be able to enforce the contract easily. I've done it once with a rescue and got the dog back quickly without going to court. I simply called a police officer to a location near the idiots home showed him the contract which we both had signed and then took him to the house to show him the conditions the dog was living in. He knocked on the door told them they had violated a contract and that they had two choices 1) turn the dog over now or 2) he would be sitting behind me in court. They chose option one.[/quote]

I don’t know how the law works where you are, but the police don’t enforce a disputed contract, they can enforce a judgment, but not a contract. That is a civil matter. Not the police’s job. Perusing someone in court is not cheap, and often when the person disappears, there is nothing anyone can do.

I know of a breeder who repossessed a dog in the middle of the night because she thought the dog was too skinny, and did not like the way the yard looked. The owner filed charges against her for stealing his dog and she got 30 days in jail and $5,000 fine. Her contract was worthless as soon as she broke the law to enforce it.

[quote]Hey I've got a deal for you. Why don't I start pulling labs here getting them vetted and send them out to you since there are so many people in CA wanting Labs...all I ask is you pay me exactly what I pay the vet..in fact send payment direct to him. Then you can sell them all you want. Of course then all I"m doing is transfering a problem from one area to another because we all know you don't bother even asking anything other than "cash, check or charge".[/quote]

No thanks, I would need a USDA license for that. beside, why would I want to be responsible for dogs I know nothing about? I’ll rather stick to my dogs from a genetically pure proven line that is the result of 16 years of selective breeding. Thanks for the offer thou. Btw, I only take cash.

[Guest Anonymous]

Abker... Agree with everyone else.... You make some great posts.

futa/norma/crazy broad... Dont compare yourself to me... ever. First off, Im not in it for the money. I dont sell many pups. Prefer to keep them for myself. The ones I do sell are tracked, religiously kept in my sights.
You dont do anything to improve the breed, you just try to make money, and that harms the breed. you dont give your bitches the chance to recoup after a litter. And I doubt you know where every puppy thats gone through your hands is. Also, I dont have 12 litters in a year. The most I have is four, and its usually less. I breed for the betterment of the breed not just to pass pups through my yard.
Unfortunatley I cant decide who should and shouldnt be able to breed dogs. I wish I did have that power. You sure wouldnt be breeding.

[__crazy_canine__]

Abker, I cant argue anything against what you said. You really are amazing, I agree.

I just get so frustrated over this issue, I dont really think. I hate to see the suffering that humans cause. Its overwhelming.

I still dont really agree with breeding but everyones right, my thoughts are unrealistic.

[BuddysMom]

Someone just said it best, futa you're an idiot. You contribute to vast amounts of animals suffering and you are either too dense to know it or you don't care. How dare you even compare yourself to Hmmm, someone with more class in their baby toenail than you will ever have.

I never promised to ignore you either, glad I didn't because I had to get that off my chest.