Dog Bit the Baby. Now What?

[__crazy_canine__]

The only post that I 100% agree on is Courtneks! Great job!

[Lokipups]

Five pages worth of posts, and you know what I didn't see? Nobody suggested the use of a MUZZLE :wink: . Inexpensive and guarantees the safety of all involved until the dog can be evaluated further.
What I also noticed was that this dog failed to break skin, something that is incredibly easy to do to an infant. That tells me that this dog has excellent bite inhibition and this situation can in all likelyhood be rectified.

Court's post was dead on, and the OP should have shown a bit better judgement in allowing a baby to crawl on the floor with a dog. I have children and I've had dozens of dogs over the years, and I would never have allowed a child to be at the same level as the dog.

[Guest Anonymous]

Thank you Courtnek! I agree.

Those of you who are suggesting that the dog be re-homed (or worse) need to bone up on your dog behavior.

It is a VERY typical mistake to apply human characteristics to dog behaviors. A person who yelled and punched at another person would be, without a doubt, a very aggressive individual. That behavior would not be acceptable.

While the same is true of the dog in this case, it is only true because this dog is living with a human pack. The same behavior, in the wild, is a loving gesture. This is the dog version of a mother discplining her child.

Instinctually, the dog sees the baby as lower on the totem pole. Why wouldn't the baby be lower? The dog has been around longer than the baby has. It makes perfect sense to the dog. The only reason that this behavior is happening is because the dog does not know to act differently.

This behavior is NOT aggressive, it is instructual in nature.

I know it is hard to do. It takes TIME and PATIENCE and most of all, CONSISTENCY. It is, however, something that can be changed and it is something that will be changed permanently once it is changed.

It is likely that the parents do not have a strong alpha presence. In a natural pack, the alpha decides who is superior to who. The alpha is the end all be all. Courtnek NAILED it on the head.

Some other ways to exert dominance/leadership:

1) The dog is ON LEASH every time he is out of the crate. As soon as he comes out, he is on leash. He follows you EVERYWHERE you go. Tie the leash to your belt loop. You control his every movement.

2) Put his food down and take it up several times while eating. Make the dog sit before eating. Place the bowl down on the ground and make him wait until you say "ok" before he approaches to eat.

3) POSTURE. Whenever you speak to the dog, you should be standing straight, with your chest out. Speak sternly, but not with a mean tone. Talk like you are a drill seargent. You have no reason to be angry, but you expect obedience the FIRST time EVERY time.

4) When the dog is sleeping, wake it up. Make it move to another spot and go back to sleep.

5) No toys unless you give them to him. That means NONE. No rawhides, no bones, no tugs, nothing.

6) Straddle the dog. Pick up its front feet in your hands and rub its stomach. I know it does not sound like a dominant behavior, but it is.

7) If you look at your dog, NEVER look away first. This is REALLY hard to do, because you just won't think of it.

8) Alway walk up to the dog with your shoulder squared to him. He should turn/avert his eays and his body as well.

Things NOT to do:

1) Do not hit the dog.

2) Do not yell uncontrollably.

3) Do not scream. Volume does not matter. The tone is what sends the message. I can speak VERY softly, but sternly, and my dog knows he screwed up.

4) Do not "alpha role." It does not usually work unless you REALLY know what you are doing and it often evokes a survival issue from the dog, inspiring more of a fight.


In my opinion, dogs are smarter than a lot of people we deal with on a regular basis. You can nearly always retrain a dog.

Good luck, keep us updated!
Joseph

[pigman]

I think some people are missing the point.

A dog must always assume it is subordinate to humans, no matter what. No matter what age the human or how long the dog has been there before the human. So a dog that bites a child in an attempt to lovingly discipline the child, is breaking the cardinal rule. DOGS WHO BITE MUST NOT BE TOLERATED!! Simple!! It is not a dog's place to discipline a human.

In tribal societies where kids and dogs are always together, a dog who bites ends up on the campfire that night. There is no sense in keeping a dangerous animal in the camp, humans are more important.
Training a dog to bite is another matter, something I don't agree with but it does happen in protection work etc. A dog should be encouraged to bark at strangers it deems as a threat to its family but never to bite them.

Weeding out aggressive dogs or dogs who think they have some sort of pack right over a human is the safest thing to do and is the smartest thing to do.
All dogs who show some sort of dominance that is exhibited by biting (even if it's a warning bite that doesn't break the skin) should be neutered or spade immediately. I don't think it's necessary to put the dog to sleep, there are other options like rehoming it where there are no kids. But to allow a dog to bite someone and put it down to personality problems is downright dangerous and bad for dogs in the long run.


It's people who give their dog the benefit of the doubt when it bites someone who are responsible for the passing on of the temperament problems we see all too often in the news.
Who are these people going to blame when the dog kills a baby? The behaviourist??
A dog who bites for any reason is a dangerous animal and should be placed in care where biting is not an option.

[AllAmericanPUP]

:roll:

i hate to tell you this pigman, but dogs arent born knowing they are not alpha in a family with humans. they have to be taught that.

just because a dog tries to be alpha doesnt mean that dog should be killed, thinking that way is obsured and I hope you never get a breed that is known to be dominant cause that'd be one dead doggy with you.

simple training like the Nothing in life for free works really well and teaches the dog where it belongs in the pack.

[pigman]

all american pup, if you had read my post you would see I don't think the dog should be killed but instead it should be neutered and sent somewhere where there are no kids. If that is possible.

I agree with you that some dogs do not assume they are not the alpha in a human family but the reason for this is because people are too soft when it comes to breeding and they breed from dogs who show aggressive signs. Why they do this is beyond me but the end result is millions of dogs out there who inherit bad aggressive traits. This then translates to millions of dogs who need to be rehomed or are abandoned. I also think people who own these agro dogs are too soft and are doing all dogs , and dog ownership, a diservice by allowing this type of thing to continue.
I ask you, is a dog's life more important to you than a child's life??

As for me never getting a breed that is known to be dominant. I have owned bull breeds and hunting dogs all my life and they are known to be dominant. The difference is they are also known to be human friendly and their dominance thing is aimed at other dogs, never humans..
None of my dogs have ever shown the slightest bit of aggression to humans, be they babies or adults. If they were to show aggression I would rehome them immediately. The problem with this is that who wants an aggressive dog?? Not many people I bet. If all else fails I will have no compunction in putting the dog to sleep if I thought it would save some poor person from being mauled. I couldn't sleep at night if I sent a known, aggressive biting bull breed to a home knowing that it might bite someone in the home.

Each biting case should be judged on its own merits. If you think every dog can be trained to not bite a child, as you seem to be suggesting, then by all means attempt to train a known biter to not bite the kid in future.
Just don't go crying to the media if that known biter actually does bite the human again.
Surely it's better to be safe than sorry? I'm all for compassion towards animals but not at the expense of a human's well being. :roll:

[ESSlover]

Yikes... seems to me that in the last couple of posts there has been some... heated dissagreement shall I say..

But! On the topic. I would *not* have the dog PTS. I dont think that the dog is aggressive. Carson has issues with biting us, to the point that he's made my dad bleed. But he just doesnt know that he ISNT ALLOWED TO. We have been working soooooooooooo hard on this, and he's getting *much much much* better. I say its a dominance issue, not aggression. And if people were to put every dominant dog to sleep.. well thats just silly! I agree 100% With Courtnek and Joseph. Great posts, both of you.

I hope everything turns out for the best :wink:

[pyrless]

[quote

Those of you who are suggesting that the dog be re-homed (or worse) need to bone up on your dog behavior.
[/quote]

I don't think that is fair at all. Even [i]dominant[/i] dog behavior towards a human baby can cause a lot of damage, whether it is motivated by aggression or pain or whatever.

[bk_blue]

[quote name='Jessashelony']*Applauds Cournek*

Awesome post court... I agree 100%[/quote]

sometimes I think I want to marry Court... :oops: :lol:

pzoo: whatever you decide I will support you. There are good arguments all round for the number of options discussed (the ones that do not resort to childish nastiness).

[BuddysMom]

This bears repeating so here goes! YEAH Courtnek for taking the time to explain what's going on and what's to be done. Also as I know you have said before a baby should never be left alone with any dog even if it's Lassie.

[quote name='courtnek']your dog has a DOMINANCE problem. he considers the baby beneath him in the pack structure. he is treating your child like a wolf cub that overstepped his bounds. that tells me there is a serious lack of pack order in your house. the baby needs to be seen as higher than your dog in the pack order. I would immediately institute NILIF, the dog gets nothing unless he has earned it, even by just a sit. no food, no walks, NOTHING.

do not let this dog enter doors before you, even if you have to slam a door in its face.

do not let this dog sleep on ANY furniture.

YOU eat first, while the dog watches, even if that means you suck down a few crackers. he NEVER eats before you, or the baby.

the BABY comes first,always. feed him first, make the dog lay down (even if that means you tether him to a chair) and make a big fuss over the baby. feed him in front of the dog, while the dog gets nothing. good behavior is rewarded, AFTER THE BABY IS FINSIHED EATING.

the dog is not allowed access to the baby at all, keep him behind a babygate while he watches you playing with the baby.

this is a DOG. his internal instincts are pack rules. anyone lower than him in the pack can be punished. YOU have to elevate the baby.

I know we like to think of them as furry people, but its simply NOT SO. we dont have the teeth,strength, or instincts they do.

You CAN break this dof of this behavior, but you cant back down. dog has to see himself as below the baby in the pack. Me,l I would not ever have them together with the baby on the floor til the baby is big enough to stand up for himself. even with all of the above.[/quote]

[BuddysMom]

P.S. Reading through did I see someone call All American Pup a Troll?! Be assured she is the furthest from it. She is one of the most compassionate animal lovers I have never met. :wink:

[Guest Anonymous]

Well call me stupid in dog behavior.. I know I am, I've only owned a dog for less than a year now. But why do so many people have quick reactions to what the proper solution is. And yes, I can very well seeing that keeping a dog out of a room with a baby is hard. Undeniable hard when every one eats in the kitchen at dinner time, or sits down to watch a movie every so often. This dog has been part of the family life, knows the family routine. Maybe she should've picked the baby up before s/he got too close. There's a number of reasons of if i did this.

You guys all talk about this whole dominance thing. The dog probably took it's role as being number 3, and now is number 4. Maybe he's just a little jealous or something...
In any case, dogs do get jealous over petting another dog at the dog park, spending more time talking with a friend than playing with it.
From my experience, Faith (my c@t) got over jealous when I got Kiani and now likes to spend a whole bunch of time with our neighbor who addors her and comes home to eat. And Kiani got overly jealous when we bought two guinea pigs, which both have babies. So we've had to spend more time taking care of them.
I just think the dog needs a little more one on one time. Find a babysitter that can watch the baby for an hour while you take your dog out, whether it's to a training class or for a rump in the park, but let it be known that it's doggie time with mommy. And have a dog sitter come over to give the dog a walk, or put it out in the yard, and let him know that its baby time. From what you've said, this dog is really really smart, don't let his intelligents bore him. Keep his mind sharp. My best friend is considered a genius (not trying to brag or anything, just comparing), and she has to read anything possible, whether is the label to food, or a poster, she's always doing something to keep her mind active. Rarely besides work, which I still catch her doing it when there's nothing to do, she's trying to learn something new, or analyze life around her. :roll:
Your dog just might be getting overly bored with the same stuff, and not feeling like he's getting much attention. I think he might get a joy out over a behavior class just to stimulate his mind.

[Shannon_C]

[color=darkred]I am going to say this and once only.
Dogs should never ever be left alone in the room with children,
no matter what age and certainly not if the dog has an injury.
Dogs have feelings like us and they like to be left alone.
However I also don't agree on the dog being put to sleep.[/color]

[courtnek]

[quote name='SandrA9810']Well call me stupid in dog behavior.. I know I am, I've only owned a dog for less than a year now. But why do so many people have quick reactions to what the proper solution is. And yes, I can very well seeing that keeping a dog out of a room with a baby is hard. Undeniable hard when every one eats in the kitchen at dinner time, or sits down to watch a movie every so often. This dog has been part of the family life, knows the family routine. Maybe she should've picked the baby up before s/he got too close. There's a number of reasons of if i did this.

You guys all talk about this whole dominance thing. The dog probably took it's role as being number 3, and now is number 4. Maybe he's just a little jealous or something...
In any case, dogs do get jealous over petting another dog at the dog park, spending more time talking with a friend than playing with it.
From my experience, Faith (my c@t) got over jealous when I got Kiani and now likes to spend a whole bunch of time with our neighbor who addors her and comes home to eat. And Kiani got overly jealous when we bought two guinea pigs, which both have babies. So we've had to spend more time taking care of them.
I just think the dog needs a little more one on one time. Find a babysitter that can watch the baby for an hour while you take your dog out, whether it's to a training class or for a rump in the park, but let it be known that it's doggie time with mommy. And have a dog sitter come over to give the dog a walk, or put it out in the yard, and let him know that its baby time. From what you've said, this dog is really really smart, don't let his intelligents bore him. Keep his mind sharp. My best friend is considered a genius (not trying to brag or anything, just comparing), and she has to read anything possible, whether is the label to food, or a poster, she's always doing something to keep her mind active. Rarely besides work, which I still catch her doing it when there's nothing to do, she's trying to learn something new, or analyze life around her. :roll:
Your dog just might be getting overly bored with the same stuff, and not feeling like he's getting much attention. I think he might get a joy out over a behavior class just to stimulate his mind.[/quote]

actually, dont get upset, but dogs dont get jealous. a dog reacting to your playing with another dog in the park is simply trying to redetermine its place in YOUR pack. this can cause problems, especially if your dog doesnt see you as top dog in your pack. jealousy is a human emotion, not a dog one, although they are actually based on the same thing. fear of loss of place.

I am not a behaviorist, and I am sorry I was so harsh with the OP (please come back) but I have trained, aided and yes, broken, dogs of dominance issues over many years. dogs that would have been put down because of them, because the owners (most of them my friends) were at their wits ends. I had to shortleash a shepherd who would not allow the husband to sleep in his own bed, and demote him to a more acceptable level of behavior. that was the closest I ever came to being bitten. he was on the bed and wasnt going to move. he snarled when I entered the room. he realized right off the bat I WASNT backing down. I took a leash
and fed the chain through the handle, put it around his neck (from a distance) and YANKED him off that bed, then ordered him to sit (by pulling up tight on the leash and forcing his head up), then made him do it by holding his head in that position and pushing his rump down. DONT DO THIS AT HOME. I know how to do it, most people dont. he didnt like it. I shorleashed him with a 2 ft leash to the husband, and he couldnt eat, walk, or even lay down without doing something for it (NILIF) he learned a great respect for the husband, was demoted to his "spot" in the pack, and there are no more problems. again, DONT DO THIS AT HOME. its very risky, and its only 30years of working with dogs that lets me get away with it.

this was a one-off...most arent that hard to break.

[courtnek]

[quote name='"pigman"']I think some people are missing the point.

A dog must always assume it is subordinate to humans, no matter what. No matter what age the human or how long the dog has been there before the human. So a dog that bites a child in an attempt to lovingly discipline the child, is breaking the cardinal rule. DOGS WHO BITE MUST NOT BE TOLERATED!! Simple!! It is not a dog's place to discipline a human.

In tribal societies where kids and dogs are always together, a dog who bites ends up on the campfire that night. There is no sense in keeping a dangerous animal in the camp, humans are more important.
Training a dog to bite is another matter, something I don't agree with but it does happen in protection work etc. A dog should be encouraged to bark at strangers it deems as a threat to its family but never to bite them.

Weeding out aggressive dogs or dogs who think they have some sort of pack right over a human is the safest thing to do and is the smartest thing to do.
All dogs who show some sort of dominance that is exhibited by biting (even if it's a warning bite that doesn't break the skin) should be neutered or spade immediately. I don't think it's necessary to put the dog to sleep, there are other options like rehoming it where there are no kids. But to allow a dog to bite someone and put it down to personality problems is downright dangerous and bad for dogs in the long run.


It's people who give their dog the benefit of the doubt when it bites someone who are responsible for the passing on of the temperament problems we see all too often in the news.
Who are these people going to blame when the dog kills a baby? The behaviourist??
A dog who bites for any reason is a dangerous animal and should be placed in care where biting is not an option.[/quote

a dog who has been taught his place in the human pack will never suffer this fate. WE as humans are not as strong, as fast, or as accurate. so therefore if we want ot live with dogs, who are faster, more accurate and more dangerous than we are, we need to show them their place. in OUR pack.

[Guest Anonymous]

Courtnek:
That sounds like a way further extreme case than this. And yeah, it might be a slight dominance problem, but what if the dog feels it should be dominant because it's injured??
I just don't feel like the dog should be rehomed. And I don't think puppies are good idea around children either. I mean, I play with moogle a lot, who's only a year old, and since she's blind, she'll sometimes attack my arm thinking its her rope. and its not always a gentle bite. Granted, I never trained her to do that, and it only happened because of who she's living with now that trained her to rough play.
But I think a little bit of obedience, and doing the whole feeding the baby first then feeding the dog thing will help him learn. I've found that when Kiani does something wrong, I'll grab her by her nose and hold her mouth shut, make her look at me and tell her NO, in a very stern voice. She'll then make the sad puppy eyes and calm down, then back down to the fact that I have the upper hand. I've learned that the halti works great too, cause I just have to tug the leash to close her mouth and turn her head towards me in a split second after she does something wrong.
I've always had animals growing up, now that I have a whole bunch of different animals, I still feel like every one of them deserves a little one on one attention so they don't feel left out or neglected.

Maybe a baby play pin could be set up in the middle of the room, those stand up hexagon fences, let mommy, daddy and baby play in it, and the dog has to stay out. Just so the dog learns and see that they're playing with the baby. Cause I don't think pinning the dog up in another room constantly, without showing him that mom is taking care of the baby is going to teach him anything.

[Lokipups]

[quote]but what if the dog feels it should be dominant because it's injured?? [/quote]

Dogs don't do dominance when injured or in pain, but the "fight or flight" instinct will kick in tenfold as a self preservation tool.

[courtnek]

[quote]Courtnek:
That sounds like a way further extreme case than this. And yeah, it might be a slight dominance problem, but what if the dog feels it should be dominant because it's injured??
[/quote]


an injured dog is more likely to react, I agree100%. but that is still no excuse for biting. he didnt really bite this time, he warned the baby off, possibly becauseof his injury, as was mentioned. however, having gotten away with it once, he now feels truly higher in thepack structure.

I am not saying that these steps need to be take forever, just a week will probably do it. once the dog has accepted his new rank, mom can relax, however, I still would not let the dog be on the floor with the baby, he needs a "spot" he must stay in when the baby is down. and NILIF should be followed for the life of the dog. the harsher steps, like keeping him away from the baby at first, is just the first step in the demotion process.

once the dog has accepted his new rank, she can slowly start giving it
more priveledges, but be prepared to take them away again if necessary.

[kittygirl109]

[quote name='pigman']I ask you, is a dog's life more important to you than a child's life??

[/quote]

Call me a total freak, but I think both lives are equal.

[DogPaddle]

I don't think you're a freak, however, the altruistic value of one life vs another life may not be the issue, at least not in its entirety. Which life do you have more [i]responsibility[/i] for, if either.

[pzoo9]

Thank you to everyone for your honest and heartfelt responses to what has turned out to be a very controversial subject.

We took our dog to the surgeon to take a look at his leg. She manipulated the limb and took some x-rays and offered to send the x-rays to a surgical specialist to see if she had missed anything. As far as she could tell, there was nothing glaringly wrong with the knee. She also gave me a website which may be helpful to someone else... [url]www.tufts.edu\vet\clinical[/url] and there is a link to a fax survey to send to a behaviorist. It costs around $280 but they are the best in the country according to our doctor.

The doctor was also very supportive of whatever we decided to do with the dog next, but she did make some points that stuck and didn't really hit home until a few days later:

1. A dog should not bite because of pain (in his situation. Please do not think I am generalizing to "if your dog is hit by a car and in pain", etc.) If he bit because his knee hurt, then the next time he could do it because he bit his tongue or stubbed his toe or got bit by a bug.

2. Once he has done it, there is nothing we can do that can prevent it happening again 100%.

3. Once biting begins, in most cases it gets worse if it is not dealt with properly. (Again, for my case. I am sure there are other cases where this is too general.)

As I completed the 9 page survey, I realized that this was not peeing on the carpet, barking, obsessive tail chasing or destroying furniture. I realized that I needed 100% for our child and our dog.

This dog was our first son. He slept in our room. Cuddled up with my husband or I in the middle of the night when we couldn't sleep. We brought him home a 25 lb supposedly full grown dog and watched him grow to 50 lb and another 6 inches taller. He went from nearly bald to a beautiful red and gold coat. All the Humane Society could tell us about him was that the owners who brought him in were tourists and dropped off nine cats that were fine and he was so emaciated they didn't think he would last the night. We did not want to send him back there.

We made an effort to rehome him, but options for large dogs with a history of biting, a bad knee and possibly another $700-$1300 operation on the opposite knee in the future, a future of arthritis as he got older, and currently on $60 a month of medication are very limited. We did not know of anyone and placing him with a stranger who may or may not tie him to a tree should he bite again or just be too active was not an option.

Last weekend we took him to the beach for the last time and let him run until he couldn't anymore. We took him back to the doctor, cradled him in our arms and said goodbye. He went knowing we loved him. We cried for hours. We continue to grieve over our loss. I can't begin to tell you how painful this was for us.

I am sure there are chatters who would disagree with our decision. That is OK. I would have been one of them until I had our son. But I do believe that I made the right choice for our pet. We will always remember our dog as our beloved family dog and not as the animal that maimed or killed our son or someone else's. I think that is a part of responsible pet ownership as well.

[Crystal]

:cry: Such sad news, but as long as you are sure you did what was right for your situation. Your right in saying you will remember his as a beloved family dog instead of something worse. I'm sorry for your families loss. :cry:

[courtnek]

I too am sorry for your loss, and I wish you much luck in our future endeavors. you did what needed to be done. I believe he could have been rehabilitated, but not everyone can do that. it takes a lot of work and total consistency, which is hard to do with a baby.

since he couldnt have been rehomed, and I feel that you felt you could no longer trust him, then this is best.

good thoughts coming your way.

[Guest Anonymous]

What matters is that you did what you thought was right. I am sorry for your loss.

With my heart and prayers,
Joseph