The American Pit Bull Terrier

[imported_Kat]

well the breed is a banned breed in the UK so unfortunately there isn't a great deal that can be done here certainly not in the near future. I think they [i][b]can[/b][/i] be a nice breed in the right hands, but on the other side of the story, there are currently 2 pit bulls at the USPCA centre that cannot be trusted. They are basically on death row and as soon as the court case involving their ownership is determined, they will be put to death. Sad I know but they are dogs that could never ever be rehomed and to keep them in a cage all their lives is more cruel than euthanaisa.

Now I am [i]not[/i] against the breed and have dealt with many undercover cases where we busted pit bull fighting rings, but to be honest I can't see the breed having a future within the UK. Fight for the breed and do what you can in American and Canada and any other country because the more BSL I see and hear about via the doggy forums, the more I fear that the overall geographic distribution of the breed is in jeopardy.

[Queen Bitch]

[quote name='HazelNutMeg']Did that get your attention?
Okay good... now keep reading...

Alright, I've been debating leaving dogo for some time now because I am sick of the fighting. Does anyone watch Will And Grace? That one episode where they get the cute little lab puppy, and Jack is watching him, and Will and Grace get back from the movies and are arguing, about the puppy, and Jack holds up the puppy and says in a little accent "Please stop the fighting" I SERIOUSLY FEEL LIKE DOING THAT!!

I read the "murdously aggressive pit bull" topic up to page 17 today, start at about 3 or 4 (which is where I'd left off before Exams). I didn't get to finish reading it because something had been brought to my attention... people in that thread have been arguing about BSL and the Pit Bull rap, and how something needs to be done very soon or there will be no bullies left... so [b]why are you all arguing[/b]? is my question.

[color=red]SHUT UP, GET UP AND DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT!![/color]

You are all lovers of this wonderful breed, so why are you arguing? I agree that there are a few people on that topic whom got under my skin (some of you know who most of all, but I won' t mention who in fear of another argument :lol: :lol: )

SO.

The point of this post is, what can you do, and ARE you doing to help this breed?
Any suggestions to me are welcome as well. I'd started a page about the missunderstood breed on my website, but have yet to finish it because I've been having problems with the surver and well you see, I have this thing... where I'm lazy when I come online... and I just can't seem to get around that. :wink:

A Few of us here at dogo have started a little "flyer" thing, making different flyers, in our many different places about many different things. I'm working on one about the Pet Store puppy and Puppy Mills right now, which is still being drafted. :P So why not start that? Everyone pitch in to make flyers about the good AND the bad of this wonderful breed. ABout the misunderstood qualities of the breed, and what it takes to own one so that maybe, just maybe, unedcuated Joe Blow will decide to NOT get a APBT just because he wants one, once he reads all the work that goes into them, and what can happen if that work isn't done.

There's one of my suggestions, anything else is totally welcome!

Come on guys! Lets STOP THE FIGHTING and put our heads together to figure something out we can all do, all over the world to HELP this wonderful breed! Would be a little more prodcutive then sitting on our asses arguing about it and posting "he said she said" crap don't you think? 8)[/quote]

Shara, you know I love you dearly, and I am saying this with nothing but respect, but.......people argue. Even though Dogo is usually a fairly peaceful place, it does get heated from time to time. Animals and their treatment are a passionate subject ( especially when it is your breed of choice being discussed) and when people are passionate about a subject things do tend to get heated and people do get worked up. ( Especially when there is a "certain" instigator.) When there are subjects that I get sick of, I don't read them, plain and simple, when subjects bore the living fignewtons out of me, I don't read them. If I see that a formerly good thread has taken a turn for the worst, I stop reading it. ( Unless of course I have had a couple :drinking: and am feeling fiesty ;), then Hellside takes over. ) In the many online communities that I belong to, Dogo is by far the tamest of them, even during the rough spots. Honestly, I think some of the more heated controversial threads can be very good for the board by proxy. We get a) new members sometimes ( look at all the new Pittie folks that we got during/after the whole RnP fiasco.) and b) people tend to start more threads discussing other things.

As far as Pit Bulls go, I am prone into getting into arguements/debates about them while out at the bars. :oops: And though Pitties aren't my breed of choice, I fight every bit of BSL I can( because after all they could come for my breed next) and try to makethe best impact possible when I am out with one of "my" pitties ( either my APBT "niece" Bean, or my other friend's Staffie Bull).

[Taurus and Jada]

Ok, I'll admit, I didn't have time to read everyones post, so i appologize if I am repeating anything else someone has said.

Someone metioned giving the government control, and making them assess possible dog owners, and send them to classes and license them. I too agree that this would be a recipe for disaster. Just another way for them to make money... I can see it now. You have to pay an outrageous amount of money just to submit an application to own a pitbull, and 90% off the people who apply would not be allowed to own one, and would have to re-apply for another breed of dog.
Why not leave this process up to someone who really cares about the dogs. Why not have the AKC, UKC, CKC, or which ever breed registry is in your country handle this.
1) I think breeders should need a license to breed dogs. Just as you need a license to drive, they should have to take classes and pass tests, and adhere to strict rules placed on them by their governing body. They would be fined if they did not adhere to these rules, as would anyone else who bred dogs with out a lisence.
2) People who want to own a dog must take a mandatory course. I realize perhaps this isn't practical, however, if you aren't willing to take a course to better understand your dog, then should you really own one?
3) Someone who wants to own a pitbull needs to be qualified. Lets face it, they are not your average dog that anyone can handle. They have special needs, and people need to be aware of that. Taurus ( my APBT ) was my first dog. I have had to learn things the hard way with him. If I was forced to take a course when I was younger and first got him, then perhaps I would have better understood him from the beginning???

Anyways, I realize these things will probably never happen, but I have thought quite abit about this, and I think this would be a god start to responsible breeding practices, and responsible dog ownership.

Kara

[Guest Anonymous]

[quote name='Sarahstaff']The question of what to do about the problems of the APBT is a complex one, and I don't think there is an easy answer. I really don't believe that legislation will help, as well as the dangers inherent in handing our rights off to lawmakers.

The main thing I do personally is to try to improve the image of the bull breeds. At one time, someone on one of our Staffy lists stated that the best way to help fight BSL was to have a webpage for your dog. I don't agree with that, but I thought it couldn't hurt, hence my website. ([url=http:www.homestead.com/elmothesbt/index.html]Elmoworld[/url])

I also get my dogs out in public and talk to people, and I compete in performance events with my dogs. Of course, I do that mainly because I enjoy it, and that's why I started in dog sport, but once I saw the PR possibilities, it has been a real motivator for me. Especially at agility trials, where there are often uninvolved spectators, for them to see a "pit bull" (they don't usually know the difference between that and a Staffie) running the course, off-leash but happy and reasonably in control, it makes an impact.

I never try to delude anyone into thinking these are easy breeds to own, in fact, I usually discourage people from looking for one. But if their image can be remade from "tough dog du jour" into "sweet family pet", the lowlifes won't want them anymore.[/quote]

*********************************

Good post, The Sarah, but the occasional pit bull or staffybull running in agility (and it is amazing how few there are, given the claims of how popular they are by some breed advocates) isn't going to do much to dispel the horror people feel when they hear accounts of dogs (much less a child) being ripped apart by pit bulls.

Your post is about ways to try to change pit bull IMAGE. But, alas, there is more than an image problem here. There is a reality problem and if you try to change image without doing a thing about reality, you are fighting a losing battle, because people who count tend to run smack dab into reality. Go here to read an account:

[url]http://www.zwire.com/site/news.cfm?newsid=12063976&BRD=2554&PAG=461&dept_id=507134&rfi=6[/url]

Darn bad luck that the person whose dog was attacked happens to be dating a person who will vote on banning pit bulls in that community, but that is how things tend to happen when there are WAY too many pit bulls and WAY too many of them are dangerous.

This is not to say that image issues shouldn't be addressed. For example, the Amstaff/APBT standard should be modified to prohibit cropped ears and the breed clubs should ask breeders to contribute the money saved to rescue. This would modify (just a teeny bit, admittedly, but there is no reason NOT to do it) the look of Amstaffs/APBT to make them look more goofy. It would generate a little money for rescue. It isn't going to change the world but it is something that responsible breed advocates can do.

Another image issue (which is also a reality issue) could be addressed if the AmStaff and APBT standards were modified to make dog aggression an actual fault or disqualification. That would be the responsible pit bull people coming forward and saying "we don't WANT anybody to breed dangerous dogs. If you want a dangerous dog, don't get an Amstaff or an APBT."

But the bottom line about reality is that there are way too many pit bulls out there owned by way too many people who absolutely want them for all the wrong reasons. "Education" isn't the answer in many of these cases, because simply educating a person who wants the meanest dog on the block that pit bulls tend to be dog aggressive isn't going to stop him from wanting one. It will make him want one MORE. And educating this person that it hurts dogs to fight them or to dump them or to chain them in yards or to breed them isn't going to matter a whit, because (for example) people who fight dogs don't CARE about hurting dogs. They LIKE it.

For people like this, the only remedy is to pass laws that can be enforced and then enforce them. For example, a law banning the ownership of intact, unregistered pit bulls.

Or sit back and watch as pit bulls get bannned even more places. Salina, Kansas was the place last week. Boston didn't ban, but I guess you probably won't be running your dogs in agility there, and neither will any other pit bull owner, since they will require muzzles in public. More of the costs of pit bull people thinking this is all about image, and they don't really have to CHANGE anything.

primrose

[cheekymunkee]

When you begin to regulate who can or cannot own a certain breed of dog you are putting MORE breeds than just the Amstaf\APBT at risk of being banned , look at this list. Everything under the FIRST TWO colored dots is considered dog agrressive to a point. That is ALOT of breeds & you can bet your hat the government will come after THEM next. What would stop them?? Nothing How many people on this board own one of the breeds that is listed as possibly dog aggressive? I'm sure LOTS.



[url]http://www.dogbreedinfo.com/combativeness.htm[/url]

Oh, Shara, I had no idea you were so young, from the posts of yours I have read you seem to be wise beyond your years!

Debby

[imported_Kat]

I have came across that "dog breed info" site before and personally think its very badly written and falsified with a lot of incorrect information. As for Border collies coming in the colours described on that site... BS.. just look at the variety of colours that we recently described. I wouldn't go by that site or rely too heavily on it at all.

[cheekymunkee]

You could be right, I haven't read the whole site, I was just interested in this particular page.

Debby

[Shenanigans]

I can on some level understand the arguing. Sometimes it's an appropriate vent, and so I don't have much problems with it. Given that I can type at the speed of light, I know some arguments online I've been in have only taken moments, at the worst a couple of hours, so I'm not about to question why aren't people working on the problem as opposed to arguing.

I don't have a pit bull, but I do work extensively on breed specific legislation in my city and country. When the Allstate scandal broke about 6 weeks ago, I was one of the first of many telephone calls. I'm on the Dog Legislation Council of Canada. I've written more letters than I can count and am currently in contact with a councillor in WA state about amending a bylaw on the table to avoid BSL...it's going very well I'm happy to say. I have reached out to many current pit bull owners who weren't being exactly responsible and shown many of them "the way" lol and I helped to prevent a breed ban in Canada's largest city. I'm willing to bet many of the people who are being criticised for arguing and posting cute pictures of their dogs (from the troll not you) have contributed similar efforts.

[Sarahstaff]

[quote]3) Someone who wants to own a pitbull needs to be qualified. Lets face it, they are not your average dog that anyone can handle. They have special needs, and people need to be aware of that[/quote]

That is true of [i]most[/i] breeds, though, singling out the bullies is unfair. Most dog breeds have their quirks, which need to be understood by anyone acquiring a dog of that breed.

Siberian Huskies will take off any chance they get, and are extremely difficult to train. JRTs are little bundles of energy that can tire you out just watching them. Many, many breeds are naturally protective, so can easily become human aggressive if not carefully handled. Etc......

If there was just [i]one[/i] message that I could promote to people about dog ownership, it would be that they should really research any breed they are considering, and think long and hard about whether this breed is a good match for them.

[Guest Anonymous]

Shenanigans - :modla: I wish so bad I could be doing what your doing! I deffently give you two huge thumbs up! :D We need more people working like that to help with BSL!

Hillside - I'm NOT against arguing and debates, it'd be nice if people could see this after I type it a million times :-? I'm against it ALL the time at an otherwise friendly dog board. Dogo is NOT all peaches and cream anymore, and I feel like I'm the only one saying this! THREE times I have debated leaving, only checking NDR and such, staying away from the dog area because everywhere I looked was an arguement. THREE times I came back to find the same crap happening. Does that sound like a message board that's friendly and more often then not, NOT arguing stupid arguments and basiclly "picking on" tons of people because they see things differently??? I think not. But see, this is just what [color=red][b]I[/b][/color] am seeing is all.

Sarahstaff - Your right! If the battle for Bullies gets won, then it will just go onto our Mastiffs and hounds and whatever breed they think not worthy :-? But one battle at a time... we need MORE people getting out and doing things to help educate the public, NOT ONLY ON BULLIES, but all breeds of dogs. I have a friend (my age believe it or not) who has taught an OB class (actually she had someone qualified help her out too :wink: ) which I took Coal to, and she is settnig up Agillity classes this summer, and hoping that by next summer we can get a trial here in Good Ol' Fort :P I will talk to her because she has more "doggy contacts" than I, and I will see if at her classes and/or trial, and whatever else we can hand out information on what it takes to own ANY dog, especially Pitties and stuff. We were going to sell dog cookies for the SPCA too, but not enough planning went into it :-? But I will talk to her again about it, and see if we can still do it, and if so we'll hand out info there too :D

cheekymunkee - Thanks! I've heard that so many times :lol: Which really confuses me because outside of the dog world (or in when I'm with my puppers :wink: ) I'm SO immature :lol: I fight with the boys and whine and stomp my foot when I don't get my way :lol: :wink: But it's all good, I know where to draw the line :wink:


Primrose - I hate to say it but I agree with you :lol: MORE then just the image DOES need to be changed. The "Put Bull Squad" :lol: :lol: :lol: needs to start breeding these dogs OUT of aggression! But I've heard many times that the breed "needs to be preserved" which just gets me so mad. I understand, I really do. I wouldn't want to breed herding out of the BC, but the border collie also isn't (usually) displaying the "kill bite" that's bred out of them. I don't know THAT much about genetics, have just gotten into it in the past year or so, but (and this question goes for everyone) would it be possible to breed the "kill bite" out of APBT but without breeding their terrier attitude and will out? If so, I think that's what should really be done.

Umm... I had tons more to say but a breeder in Alberta just (MEANLY) sent me about this ADORIBLE little brindle AmStaff girl who needs a home! NO SHARA! BAD! CAR FIRST! PUPPY SECOND! Noooo! :cry: :cry:

I'll have to write later, I've got a bad case of puppy feaver :lol:

[__crazy_canine__]

[quote name='Sarahstaff']That is true of [i]most[/i] breeds, though, singling out the bullies is unfair. Most dog breeds have their quirks, which need to be understood by anyone acquiring a dog of that breed.

Siberian Huskies will take off any chance they get, and are extremely difficult to train. JRTs are little bundles of energy that can tire you out just watching them. Many, many breeds are naturally protective, so can easily become human aggressive if not carefully handled. Etc......[/quote]

Although I agree, I have to say its much different with bullies. Their jaws are much more dangerous than a JRTs and are more at risk to be PTS in shelters or to be fought on the streets.

Bully breeds need to have owners that have experience in the breed or obvious knowledge of them. Otherwise I think the breeds will keep going downhill fast.

As much as it hurts me to say this, bans will be good for them in the long run. BUT I think it should only be in big cities where fighting most often happens. I know here in Dallas there are fights ALL the time! It makes me sick and honestly I would rather see no bullys here than dead and injured ones.

I love bullies and I think their needs to be more education about them. Some people may never change their opinions about these "dangerous" breeds but others may open their eyes! I wish there was a simple way to solve the problem these breeds have, but there isnt. *sigh* The ideas you all have are good, we just need to put more of them into action.

[Sarahstaff]

[quote]As much as it hurts me to say this, bans will be good for them in the long run. BUT I think it should only be in big cities where fighting most often happens[/quote]

Bans won't stop that. Bans will only stop responsible owners from having them. The lowlifes will continue to have them, and fight them. They aren't obeying the law anyway, why would they listen to one more?

See Kat's post about the state of the breed in the UK. They've been banned in the UK for a long time (can't remember how long, sorry, but it's over 10 years), and they still break up fighting rings.

Whatever the answer is, it is not bans.

[__crazy_canine__]

[quote name='Sarahstaff'][quote]As much as it hurts me to say this, bans will be good for them in the long run. BUT I think it should only be in big cities where fighting most often happens[/quote]
Bans won't stop that. Bans will only stop responsible owners from having them. The lowlifes will continue to have them, and fight them. They aren't obeying the law anyway, why would they listen to one more?
[/quote]

Ok, maybe youre right, well no, not maybe, you are right. Gah! Dumb people. Why dont we just exterminate stupid people and then the world would be happy! :lol:

[cheekymunkee]

[quote name='__crazy_canine__'][quote name='Sarahstaff'][quote]As much as it hurts me to say this, bans will be good for them in the long run. BUT I think it should only be in big cities where fighting most often happens[/quote]
Bans won't stop that. Bans will only stop responsible owners from having them. The lowlifes will continue to have them, and fight them. They aren't obeying the law anyway, why would they listen to one more?
[/quote]

Ok, maybe youre right, well no, not maybe, you are right. Gah! Dumb people. Why dont we just exterminate stupid people and then the world would be happy! :lol:[/quote]

I'm ALL for that CC!!

Debby

[courtnek]

OK my take. Dont shoot me.

and by the way, Shara is from Canada, who's laws differ from mine. I'll give you my take on US laws.

I personally dont believe that anyone should be allowed to adopt ANY dog (not just Pit's) without a competency test. This goes for buying from a breeder as well. A questionaire, on your personal knowledge about dogs.

The guide dog societies require it. They "match" the dog to the owner.
Lifestyle, living quarters, exercise availability. I had to take one to adopt Laurel, and go thru an extensive question and answer process. Some people will say that will make people stop wanting to adopt, but if the breeders required it as well it could work. unfortunately, it could require SOME govt intervention to make it happen, and that's the sticky part.
I am NOT a big fan of govt intervention. but that's where I think the stand should be taken. laws enacted to require people to prove they can and WILL take good care of the dog. punishment if they do not. "match" the dog to the potential owner, in other words.

I also firmly believe that all breeders should be licensed. And non-licensed people should be required to have their dogs neutered. I WONT budge there. This would cut down on a lot of BYB. less BYB means less dogs in
shelters. the liscensed breeders would have to prove they are breeding to the best possible standards for the dog. health certs, etc. This COULD work, if the govt would stop being so lazy and trying to find the easy way out. that is what I have been fighting for, for years.

[Guest Anonymous]

Salina Kansas didnt ban pit bulls. They did, however, put very heavy restrictions on pit bulls and their owners.... $100,000 insurance policy, they must be kenneled (no chains), licensed.....etc....

[__crazy_canine__]

[quote name='courtnek']I also firmly believe that all breeders should be licensed. And non-licensed people should be required to have their dogs neutered. I WONT budge there. This would cut down on a lot of BYB. less BYB means less dogs in shelters.[/quote]

Although I completely agree with everything you said, this (what you posted and I quote you above) would be hard to enforce. If it could work that would be great but people break laws all the time and arent caught, this would be no different. Who knows, maybe people wouldnt try to go against the law but no matter what people would still breed without licenses.

Its a good idea and it would cut down BYBs but not eliminate them completely. :cry: Maybe someone could try to email the government about the idea? They probably wont listen but its worth a try, right?

I still think we should just rid the world of ignorant people though... :wink:

[cheekymunkee]

It WOULD be hard to enforce, people would just go underground like they have with dog fighting. Even areas who HAVE enacted BSL are NOT free of the breeds that they ban. The people there take a much bigger chance owning the breed but nothing really stops them from doing it. The same with ANY law. I KNOW it is illeagal for me to drive 85 in 55 mile speed zones but does it stop me? The ticket in my pocket says NO. :wink: There are laws against lots of things that people do anyway, otherwise we would have NO problem with kiddie porn on the internet, people WILL find a way to do what they want to do.

Debby

[courtnek]

and I agree with all of that. NOTHING will stop it completely. However, the majority of people obey the existing laws. I will go with the majority of them obeying this one. MOST people obey existing laws, our country would be in anarchy if not so. there are always exceptions....