What are the advantages of desexing male dogs?

[Aroura]

I just need a list, I'm considering showing my next dog, but that means I can't desex him. He is full of grand champion lines, so I have high hopes. Should I just get a pet and desex him instead, or should I show?

[Carolk9s]

Aroura,
What do you WANT to do? If he is show quality and you think you even might like showing him, then go for it! You can always have him desexed afterwards. You might decide after a show or two that you do not want to continue, you can have him desexed then. Or you might like it a great deal, he might be a little showman, you'll not know if you do not go for it.

[__crazy_canine__]

Im not an expert but from experience I would say there are a lot of advantages.

-less agressive, more social (Dogs that Ive seen that werent neutered were most likely to start a fight with another dog. And I believe its hormones that causes a trigger in other males' minds and just kinda "sets them off")

-more calm (seems to me that dogs with out all that testosterone (sp?) have a lot of energy, a little too much! Its not a drastic change but theyre normally more calm)

-not as much marking (they wont want to mark your house or when you go on a walk mark everything)

-less dominant (Ive noticed they arent as dominant or challenging towards people or other dogs when they are fixed)


Now this is all from what Ive seen in different males but results vary among dogs. You might want someone else's opinion or facts because this is just what Ive seen and I have NO evidence whatsoever that what I said actually happens in all males.

[kendalyn]

You don't have to decide right now, or even right when you get the puppy. I prefer not to neuter until the dog is around 10 months or so anyway. I think a lot of shows have puppy classes so you can both get your feet wet there and see if you think it might be something you want to commit to doing :-)

Are you still looking at a Whippet?

[courtnek]

all of Crazy's facts are correct. There is also testicular cancer, and escapsim to consider. Unneutered dogs tend to wander off more. However, if you want to show it's a moot point. You cant show a neutered dog. It's best to wait and see what happenes with training. Yu can always get it done later as mentioned.

[Aroura]

The reason I want to decide now is that if I do want to show, I will ask for the pick of the litter, otherwise I'll just want a pet quality dog. Show quality is $100 extra.

I tend to agree with what most of you have said, I should get one for show and if I don't like it I can desex him. I need Josh to understand how expensive it is to show and then see if he still wants to. Do you get prize money if you win? I've never actually been to a show, but watching the movie "Best in Show" makes me feel really competitive and want to be the star of the show! :lol:

Thanks Crazy canine, I'll have to find out more about the less agressive - more social thing. Whippets are generally a friendly breed so I'm not too worried about it turning aggressive, but I know these things can still happen even if you do everything to prevent it. I don't mind if he's full of energy, whippets are known for being lazy lap dogs, except when out running off all their energy in one burst, a more energetic boy wont be any trouble. As for marking, as long as he's house trained that doesn't worry me too much! Montie marks everything, waiting for one more dog to mark every post can't make our walks too much longer! The main thing I was worried about is him being so distracted and not doing obedience/agility, does anyone know if this would happen?

Courtnek, will he be more likely to run away if let off lead at a park? Can he be trusted at all if he's not neutered? We have a high fence, so hopefully he wont be able to escape BUT whippets are known jumpers so I'm going to get our old aivery and IF he needs it I will put him in that when not at home, though he will be mostly indoors.

Well kenalyn, you can see I'm still getting a whippet, but I want to show off mum and dad to everyone, so here is mum:
[url]http://www.lisp.com.au/~chasbank/lois.html[/url]

And dad
[url]http://users.chariot.net.au/~swifthund/patrick.htm[/url]

Go have a look everyone and tell me what you think! :D

By the way, since dads page was last updated he has become an australian grand champ :wink:

[Cairn6]

I don't get this whole need to show a dog. What to show how pretty he is? Just the fact that they don't let you neuter the dog makes me sick. What do they care if you are going to breed the dog or not. The fact is that a dog that is neutered is healthier and happier in the long run. If you make sure that he is neutered before the age of 6 months he won't reach sexual maturity and you will have a much better dog all round.

[Aroura]

Its not a need, more a hobby. I think it would be fun, and I intend to breed in the future so it would be good if I'm familiar with the show ring so I can have success with my future show dogs and know what I'm doing, so I can get titles before breeding them.

Is there that much of a difference if a dog is allowed to reach maturity before he is desexed? Does it affect them in the long run?

[kendalyn]

[quote]will he be more likely to run away if let off lead at a park? Can he be trusted at all if he's not neutered? [/quote]

As long as his obedience skills are good, he'll be fine.

Neutering is a good thing for pets, but it isn't something you should feel compelled to do right away if you're thinking about showing (and you're responsible). It has it's advantages and should be done is most cases, but it's not like an unneutered dog is going to be a holy terror that you can't control :-)

The idea that neutered dogs get reproductive cancers (except for testicular cancer obviously :lol: ) less often than unneutered dogs may or may not be true. From what I've read, I would say it's not accurate. Although I can find just as many sources that say it is true as those that say it isn't, the more credible onces seem to be saying that there has been no real research to back that up.

Here are a couple that say it isn't:

[url]http://www.showdogsupersite.com/kenlclub/breedvet/neutr.html[/url]

[url]http://www.neutersol.com/Neutering%20Myths%20and%20New%20Realities.htm[/url]

[zheelah]

If you are interested in trying the showthing I say go for it. I have an intacked male dobermann and I have never had a prolem with some of the things on that list, for example he never ever runs off, the garden can be completly open and he wouldn't even think about it (off course we had to work on obedience, but there is not a dog in the world that you don't have to train). A dog show is really a breeding evaluation, that it is evaluates each dog on how close it compares with the breed standard, it isn't (or at least shouldn't) be about wich dog is the most beautifull so the aim you should go with is getting a good review and a red ribbon (it might be a bit different at you shows but at our each dog is evaluated an given a grade, first grade is a red ribbon, second a blue and third a yellow). My aim when I go to a show is to get a red ribbon and a good evaluation, if a dog gets a blue ribbon it does not continue and getting a red ribbon means that the dog is a very good repricentitive of it's breed. Points toward championship and a placing in the breed is a bonus (but off course most people go to a show with the intent of getting there).

Sorry about the rambling :roll: but I do love to show dogs (and all kinds of other kind of work, like agility, obedience, tracking, SAR) and you can get your feet wet by entering in puppy classes. Also you should talk to the breeder and be totally honest with him/her about your intent as she may not be willing to give you the best puppy in the litter if you are not sure about showing and nutering.

[Carolk9s]

[quote name='Cairn6']I don't get this whole need to show a dog. What to show how pretty he is? [/quote]
As Aroura said, it is not a NEED. I do not NEED to run my dog in agility trials, I do it because BOTH of us have a great deal of fun at it.
Perhaps you like to hang out at home with your dog or play with it in the yard and not compete in any way, fine by me!

[quote name='Cairn6']Just the fact that they don't let you neuter the dog makes me sick. What do they care if you are going to breed the dog or not. [/quote]
Because if no one cared, if breeding stock was simply based on the dogs left intact not necessarily the actual best representatives of the breed, we might see more average or even mediocre dogs being bred. Of course purebred dogs have their problems, I for one agree with keeping them intact for MOST conformation showing. Most if not all Veterans classes allow spayed bitches and neutered dogs. Conformation showing BY DESIGN is to evaluate BREEDING stock. If you do not like that game, by all means do not play it.
[quote name='Cairn6']The fact is that a dog that is neutered is healthier and happier in the long run. If you make sure that he is neutered before the age of 6 months he won't reach sexual maturity and you will have a much better dog all round.[/quote]
NOT ALWAYS TRUE. There are studies that indicate that early neutering contributes to a disruption in long bone growth. Those same hormones that can be problematic also contribute to a dog growth, both physical and mental. My Jesse was neutered at 6 months, he is taller than all of his littermates but the bone in his leg is moderately thinner. As a pet/companion dog, not an issue. As an obedience dog, not an issue. As an agility dog, perhaps an issue. His lighter bone structure may have contributed to a problem in his shoulders and back, the reason he was retired from agility at a younger age than other Belgians I have read about. If I had wanted a 'serious' working dog, might well have been an issue. If I choose to get another male puppy, I will wait to neuter him until he has reached his full physical growth.

[Carolk9s]

[quote name='K']Here Carol say hypothetically that you could show spayed/neutered dogs alongside intact ones...and that was preventing the intact ones from winning...do you think the people with intact dogs would think twice about breeding them becuse they had not been championed?...or am I being silly and expecting to much of mere humans?[/quote]

Some would, some would not. There are far too many irresponsible breeders who only breed for profit, not the betterment of their breed. Those who are serious about selecting a dam and sire who are JUDGED to be excellent representatives of the breed, those who also factor in working ability, temperament, and the total dog, would seek out dogs worthy of a championship.
The game is what it is, each can choose whether or not they wish to play. My Jesse is not championship material, he is still beautiful and a champion in my eyes.
Jesse was neutered because he was monorchid. One testicle was retained. If I could have shown him anyway, what purpose would that serve? Would not matter if in every other aspect he was a superior model of the Belgian. Excellent temperament, excellent structure, excellent health, no matter, could not breed from him because he is neutered. If the rules were different, say I could have shown him even though he was monorchid. Say he got his championship. Say I said woo hoo I have a champ, I want to breed him. And he passes that retained testicle propensity on to his offspring.
Speaking hypothetically, the top 5 males in the breed are all neutered. The next 5 are nice dogs but have little flaws or not so little flaws, east/west fronts, cowhocked, not quite right shoulders, maybe even an iffy temperament, etc. The breeding pool is limited to the just nice dogs because the top dogs are neutered. Maybe someone will want to breed from one of these dogs, maybe not. Gene pool is shrinking worse than ever before.
Conformation showing has never interested me, I prefer agility. Proper structure is very important in agility, not so you can win, so the dog is not running on heart and injuring themself in the process. If my choices were limited to dogs bred from dogs with compromised structure, my chances of getting a dog with compromised structure are high.

[Carolk9s]

Another thought occurred to me. Again I will use Jesse as a reference. If I was able to show him neutered, and he earned a championship, and I am not concered about pure ethics, am I going to tell anyone WHY he was neutered? His full brother is intact, maybe a champ, maybe not. Someone might decide that since Jesse was SUCH an excellent representative of the breed that they will breed from his brother. Oops, that retained testicle propensity is also in Jesse's brothers lineage.

[Guest Anonymous]

It is possible to have the vet do a vasectamy (sp.). Which would make the dog look like it is still intact. Of course, it is a little more expensive than neutering.

AND, neutering does not ever guarantee the dog will act "better", stop marking his territory, not fight with other dogs, etc...
My friends dog, a huge black GSD, Collie mix, was fixed at 6 months. He still runs off to mark his territory, he is very protective and can be very aggressive, especially to other dogs, and he will, every once in a while, try to hump her little fixed bitch.
Dont think that fixing a dog will EVER help aggression or calm the dog down. That just isnt the case.
Each dog is different and each dog will act different. Fixing is never a sure thing. Except you know you wont have to deal with unwanted pups.

[Cairn6]

[quote]
As Aroura said, it is not a NEED. I do not NEED to run my dog in agility trials, I do it because BOTH of us have a great deal of fun at it.
Perhaps you like to hang out at home with your dog or play with it in the yard and not compete in any way, fine by me! [/quote]
Agility is fun for the dogs I am not saying showing your dog is evil or anything but this whole this dog is so grand because of the way he looks seems silly to me. What is the dog really getting out of it? Yes they love being with you no matter what you do but how much fun is it really?


[quote]Because if no one cared, if breeding stock was simply based on the dogs left intact not necessarily the actual best representatives of the breed, we might see more average or even mediocre dogs being bred. Of course purebred dogs have their problems, I for one agree with keeping them intact for MOST conformation showing. Most if not all Veterans classes allow spayed bitches and neutered dogs. Conformation showing BY DESIGN is to evaluate BREEDING stock. If you do not like that game, by all means do not play it. [/quote]

What does that have to do with whether the dog is neutered or not. If the neutered dog is the best looking and well bred what do they care if his little boys are cut off or not. If someone is not planning to breed thier dog one way or another there won't be puppies anyway so why would they care about that. And another thing how do they verify that a female has been spayed or not.

[quote]NOT ALWAYS TRUE. There are studies that indicate that early neutering contributes to a disruption in long bone growth. Those same hormones that can be problematic also contribute to a dog growth, both physical and mental. My Jesse was neutered at 6 months, he is taller than all of his littermates but the bone in his leg is moderately thinner. As a pet/companion dog, not an issue. As an obedience dog, not an issue. As an agility dog, perhaps an issue. His lighter bone structure may have contributed to a problem in his shoulders and back, the reason he was retired from agility at a younger age than other Belgians I have read about. If I had wanted a 'serious' working dog, might well have been an issue. If I choose to get another male puppy, I will wait to neuter him until he has reached his full physical growth.[/quote]
This would be a case of weighing the pros and cons. What are the benefits of neutering over not neutering. Is having the fastest dog out there worth the increased chances of,marking, aggression, wandering, cancers, and prostate problems.

[Aroura]

Thanks everyone for your help.

We've decided definatly to show, I've told Josh how expensive it can be and all the rest, but he still seems keen - even though I'll be the one doing all the work with it, he's the one with the cash! :wink:

Kiwi, you do have a good point. I am not an experienced shower, so I may not get the pick, but the chances are I will still get a good dog with its breeding, I'm putting a deposit on it now (its not due to be born for another two weeks) and will be getting photos emailed to me when he is born. I've been in contact with the breeders and they'll be behind me the whole way, also I know a show judge that is willing to give me show pointers. If he doesn't do well in the ring he will be desexed and be a loving pet, and I wont feel any regret because you've gotta be in it to win it and at least I'll be giving it a go! :D

Kendalyn, you say as long as his obedience skills are good... will they be as good if he is not nuetered? Will his focus be entirely on me instead of those nice smelling bitches running around strutting their stuff? Or am I just dreaming? I've been advised to keep him on lead until he's about two anyway, as they don't fully mature in the head until then and because they run so fast they can be too far away to find you again by the time they decide to turn back - of course I'll be able to evaluate this on an individual basis, he might not want to leave my side for all I know! Thanks for the links 8)

Thank you for that Carol!!! I had no idea, initially I was going to get him desexed as young as possible, with his fine bone structure I wouldn't want it to be any finer!

Hmmmm, I don't think I'd go with a vasectamy, the reason if I did chose to desex him would be to get rid of the testosterone, which would still be there if he had a vasectemy. Him getting out and making unwanted puppies wouldn't be too much of an issue, we have a high fence and the breeder has already requested we get a run in case he does learn how to jump it, so I'm getting our aivery, if he proves to be a jumper I will extend it and he can go in that while we are out, though he will be a mostly indoor dog. Besides, if I show him and he earns himself a great title I may want to stud him out and continue showing with one of his offspring :wink:

[Aroura]

Just another quick question, I know un neutered dogs are more likely to exhibit dog aggression, but with good genetics and socialization can an un neutered dog be just as friendly and playful as a neutered one?

Aslo, can anyone give me any ideas on the costs of showing???

[kendalyn]

[quote name='Aroura']Kendalyn, you say as long as his obedience skills are good... will they be as good if he is not nuetered? [/quote]

I don't see why not. Of course you'll have to keep a much closer watch on him if he is off leash, but hopefully anyone with a bitch in heat would be smart enough to keep her at home or on a leash also. I can't believe that unneutered dogs are really that harder to control than a neutered dog. It's all about training and bonding in my opinion. I want to let you know though that I've never personally had an intact dog. This is just coming from what I've read and what seems logical to me. The breeder would be able to give you a very experienced explanation I'm sure :-)

[quote name='Cairn6']What does that have to do with whether the dog is neutered or not. If the neutered dog is the best looking and well bred what do they care if his little boys are cut off or not. If someone is not planning to breed thier dog one way or another there won't be puppies anyway so why would they care about that.[/quote]

I completely agree. It shouldn't all be about breeding. If the dog is the best, he/she is the best, intact or not.

[Aroura]

Thanks Kendalyn, I was going to talk to the breeder about it anyway.

[quote]but hopefully anyone with a bitch in heat would be smart enough to keep her at home or on a leash also.[/quote]
Well the other day at the dog park there was this guy, his dogs were running around having fun and he asked if Montie was desexed - why? Because his bitch was in heat! :o :drinking:

Cairn, sorry I missed your post before. Yes, I know agility is also fun, as is obedience, and I do both with my dogs and am so proud of their acheivements, I just LOVE it when they bring home a blue ribbon. I love my dogs and am very proud of them, and love to show them off to the world - showing would just provide another way to do this.

The point of shows is so that when you go to buy a pup you can see its pedigree and how many champions it has etc. Why then put desexed dogs in the show ring? I do beleive there should be seperate "fun" shows for desexed dogs, but I don't believe they should be pooled together.

Weighing up the pros and cons of desexing, I have decided its probably best to leave him undesexed, this way I get the joys of showing, plus with all the new evidence showing that desexing doesn't actually prevent much at all, yet the opperation can cause problems, its probably best not to desex him for a year or two anyway, in which time he could have gained some points and I would have already had fun in the show ring.

[courtnek]

If you want an AKC title. or crufts, or any major dog show, it cant be neutered. The reasoning is that if it is show quality, you will want to breed it to make more show quality dogs. I disagree with this entirely. I think there should be dog shows for neutered dogs, mixed breeds, any well trained dog should be able to show. I have seen mutts with better confirmation than some show dogs, in the training department. I firmly believe that dogs put up for show, should also have to prove "trial" skills.
Hunting dogs should have to hunt. Herding dogs. herd. Guarding dogs., Guard. They should have to show the skills for what they were bred for, not just their looks....

My foxhound is not "pretty" - her life prior to me was a hunting life, she has abrasions, scars, ripped dew claws...

I took her to a dog park this weekend. She OUTRAN every dog there, including my Lab...she is the epitome of a hunting dog. She could chase. corner and nail a fox in a a heartbeat...or any other prey you asked her to hunt.

If someone needed a hunter, she could do it. And win. but she will never be a show dog..she's not "pretty"...

[Guest Anonymous]

[quote]but hopefully anyone with a bitch in heat would be smart enough to keep her at home or on a leash also.[/quote]

I have been to obedience trails and there have been people in the conformation shows rude enough to bring their bitches in heat :evil: a few brought their bitches in heat to keep their other female company :roll:
I was ticked as I had an intact male in the obedience trials...he wasn't heeling...but, riding along side of me humping me leg. I don't think the judge was impressed that my dog was a VERY close heeler...if ya know what I mean :wink: he also tried to leave the ring twice on the off lead sit/stay & long down...I was very upset as I was trying to get a leg up on him. Of course I didn't qualify...it was a wasted weekend due to that ignorant breeder. :evil:

[mouseatthebusstop]

from my own experance Gladis is easyer to show she loves to show off even though Paddy is the better quality he loves to make a show of me in the ring. I would say go for a bitch to show

[Aroura]

Courtnek, it would be good if all dogs had to pass a test where they had to do what they were meant to do before being shown, but because this isn't the case I guess thats why there are working breeders and show breeders :roll:

Thanks Kiwi, I'll have to keep that in mind about telling the judges I'm new - it'll probably be pretty obvious anyway, no doubt I'll be wondering around with the gun dogs wondering where I'm supposed to be and feeling very out of place! :lol:

I'll have to go to the warehouse and check that out - I need something anyway, for obedience.

Mouse, we've already decided on a dog as they are slightly bigger (we wanted something bigger) and you don't have the worry of them coming into heat. Also, I'm not sure about sex differences, but its all the males the line that are australian champions, so I'll stick with that!