schippsmom Posted January 13, 2004 Share Posted January 13, 2004 :Dog_run: After seeing "The smirk" I realized Re-Run pretends to have a hurt paw when he does something bad. I came back in the house last week after taking the kids to the bus and there was Re-Run sitting by the door with one paw in the air like it was hurt. In the living room there was dirt from the plants everywhere. It looked like he had a dirt throwing contest while I was gone. It's hard to scold a dog when they look like they are hurt. Was curious, does anyone else have a dog that gives themselves away when their bad. So far we have the smirk and hurt paw. Who wants to add to it??? Paula Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Anonymous Posted January 13, 2004 Share Posted January 13, 2004 LOL now that sounds too cute!! Zoey will alwasy run and hide. Cody has never done anything bad ( seriously, well except the first month we had him ) he just sleeps while we are gone, and sleeps when we get home. all he does is sleep.lol Zoey gets kenneld.. but when she is in trouble she will crawl past you as low the ground as she can and hide. lol Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DogPaddle Posted January 14, 2004 Share Posted January 14, 2004 Kavik does the paw, Zaphod does nothing - he is never concerned or possibly even aware that it is possible that he could have done something naughty. In fact Zaphod wags his tail while being scolded - he wags his tail continually. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aroura Posted January 14, 2004 Share Posted January 14, 2004 lol, too cute :wink: Well, of course Montie does "the smirk" :lol: , but Tessa will always make a real nuisance of herself if she thinks she's in trouble, she runs around and jumps up (she never jumps usually) and generally acts silly!!! Lily puts her tail, well stump, between her legs and squints as if protecting herself from punishment (I don't ever hit her but she still does this). Donna is continuously naughty and I don't think she knows the difference between being in trouble and being loved :lol: And Puddles, well I don't think she even knows when she's done something wrong! :roll: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drjeffrock Posted January 14, 2004 Share Posted January 14, 2004 [quote name='DeafAussieLover'] but when she is in trouble she will crawl past you as low the ground as she can and hide. lol[/quote] LOL, these stories are great. Kira will just come right up to me with her ears pinned back, and try to give me her version of a kiss (sticking her forehead forward to be kissed.) LOL @ Dexter. He still is trying to figure out right from wrong. He def. does the Zoey crawl, or gets into his kennel to get away from us, hahaha. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Anonymous Posted January 14, 2004 Share Posted January 14, 2004 dogs don't feel "guilt" like people do, therefore they aren't really acting like that because they did something "wrong". such a statement is projecting feelings and thoughts into the dog, who has a completely different perspective of life compared to our own. they are just reacting to whatever signals [b]you[/b] are sending (even if you aren't aware of it) when you realize they did something you don't approve of. for everyone who is interested in "getting into their dog's head" a little more and looking at things from their perspective, read some good dog books, like for example "the other end of the leash" by patricia mcconnell ([url=http://www.dogsbestfriendtraining.com/toeotl.php#excerpt]excerpt[/url]) or "bones would rain from the sky" by suzanne clothier ([url=http://www.flyingdogpress.com/bonesexcerpt.html]excerpt[/url]). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Horsefeathers! Posted January 14, 2004 Share Posted January 14, 2004 So my dogs aren't conspiring against me? That means I'm just paranoid and the medication isn't working!! [img]http://groups.msn.com/_Secure/0YQAUA3UfJDqPoHbo*VO*k6YkVsjsui1KYGfqoPb3PGet0mEYsc71EksSfApXuugKjHdt1Ms4!cD27pQV8nrn8U2m1B5QlMRNPCVoy5FZJXxm9G*C3R5zxjSjGgkui3GZB**iMPAy0pTnxOfRjHomDQ/crying%20girl.gif?dc=4675436072349453090[/img] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
courtnek Posted January 14, 2004 Share Posted January 14, 2004 I agree that they "sense" certain approved behaviors when they've been bad...if they look guilty and dont get punished, that works. if they look "sad' and dont get punished that works...they are not stupid..they will find the behavior that doesnt get them punished, and sling it for all its worth.. they know more than we think they do... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aroura Posted January 14, 2004 Share Posted January 14, 2004 How can they be reacting to my signals when I havn't even realised what they have done yet? They do all this BEFORE I realise what they've done, and thats how I know they've done something! Montie on the other hand, usually smirks before AND after he's done the deed, thats a different kettle of fish all together!! :o Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
schippsmom Posted January 14, 2004 Author Share Posted January 14, 2004 :Dog_run: I don't know if I agree with what guest had to say. Re-Run's paw was very badly injured before I was able to in the living room. Could possibly he knew from past experience :P All I know is that he uses it to the hilt :D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DogPaddle Posted January 14, 2004 Share Posted January 14, 2004 I love it when people say I am anthropomorphizing my dog when I "assign it emotions." I am no more anthropomorphizing my dog than people are anthropomorphizing PEOPLE when they assign them emotions. I mean do you seriously think that emotional responses in people are not motivated by societal conditioning? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
courtnek Posted January 14, 2004 Share Posted January 14, 2004 [quote]How can they be reacting to my signals when I havn't even realised what they have done yet? They do all this BEFORE I realise what they've done, and thats how I know they've done something! [/quote] I have noticed this as well...I think it's a trained response. They know what they did was not acceptable, they see you come home, they are expecting to get yelled at or punished, and they give themselves away before you even realize they did something wrong. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edgar Posted January 14, 2004 Share Posted January 14, 2004 [quote]dogs don't feel "guilt" like people do, therefore they aren't really acting like that because they did something "wrong". such a statement is projecting feelings and thoughts into the dog, who has a completely different perspective of life compared to our own. they are just reacting to whatever signals you are sending (even if you aren't aware of it) when you realize they did something you don't approve of. for everyone who is interested in "getting into their dog's head" a little more and looking at things from their perspective, read some good dog books, like for example "the other end of the leash" by patricia mcconnell (excerpt) or "bones would rain from the sky" by suzanne clothier [/quote] I think people need to start using their heads a bit more instead of continuing to subscribe to this medieval line of thinking. Descartes the "great" French scientist/philosopher used to perform live dissections on animals. Descartes also contended that animals have no souls (only people do) and that the cries of pain the let out were nothing more than mechanical expulsions of gases and sounds. However he would have come up with a completely different explanation for humans based on us having "souls". As a graduate of Cognitive Sciences I find these paltry attempts where people say "Don't ascribe your human feelings to a trained animal!" quite amusing. As we practitioners of modern Science know, feelings, intelligence and all other thinking are aspects of the brain. Yes Dogs and People have different brain structure but don't confuse that with the way we apply language to describe our introspective thoughts and feelings. Its quite simple. Guilt for example is no "Natural" emotion. Rather its hammered into you by the people and environment around you. Its hammered into a dog the same way. Kid does something bad, mom yells. Dog does something bad, master can yell to. How do I confirm that the child feels guilt and that the dog does not. 1. Behaviour 2. Language 3. Physiology We're dealing with a completely introspective attitude here (guilt, you have to look "inward" to "feel" it). So how can I truly know whether the Dog or Child feels guilt? In short I think its logical to say that I can never know for sure. I can never step into someone Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kendalyn Posted January 14, 2004 Share Posted January 14, 2004 Good post Edgar! I agree with you :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
courtnek Posted January 14, 2004 Share Posted January 14, 2004 good post Edgar - I agree with you. I personally feel that dogs have emotions, feel guilt, and know when they have done something wrong. I completely disagree with the mindset that "they cant know guillt, the dont have the intelligence". Dogs can learn intelligent disobedience, guide dogs learn it all the time...that requires a certain amount of intelligence, to "decide" that mom's orders CANNOT be obeyed, or mom will be hurt... I also dont agree with people who say that dogs are "so advanced" that they no longer live by pack rules. In my opinion, they do. and we need to train them this way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
schippsmom Posted January 14, 2004 Author Share Posted January 14, 2004 :Dog_run: Yes Edgar, good post. I agree completely. OK. I really wasn't prepared for all of these responses, I was just hoping to get some cute stories of our best friends. I don't want to appear rude but can we get back to it? I have really enjoyed the posts already received on it. Paula & Re-Run Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DogPaddle Posted January 14, 2004 Share Posted January 14, 2004 Edgar - Another endorsement from me. Good post. I think people get in a tizzy when they think that people are "anthropomorphizing" animals, not because they are so distressed by the idea of dogs having emotions but because they are reluctant to admit that we are not so different from them. I on the other hand think I would be doing well to be a bit more like my dog. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Horsefeathers! Posted January 14, 2004 Share Posted January 14, 2004 Y'all sure do talk neat. I wish I knew what y'all were talking about. ? :-? ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Anonymous Posted January 15, 2004 Share Posted January 15, 2004 i did not say a single word about dogs not being intelligent, or not having emotions, or not being thinking, feeling creatures. you read all that into my post but completely misunderstood. if you are familiar with at least one of the books i mentioned in my earlier post, you would know that. :) what i [b]did[/b] say is that dogs are far more receptive to the slightest change in your posture, facial expression, tone of voice etc. - they can "read" humans better than humans can "read" dogs, or even other humans (unless they really make an effort). why do you think so many people are so indignant and claim [i]"that dog bit me, just out of the blue and for no reason at all!"[/i] when they just overlooked about half a dozen of warning signals the dog sent before he resorted to one of the strongest reactions to show his disagreement with something the human did and kept doing, despite all warnings? now, i'm not a scientist, and i'm not a behaviorist either, but i still don't believe in the common misconceptions like "a dog feels guilty about doing __" or "he did __ just out of spite". i'm also not trying to "put down" a dog as being an inferior animal. i just don't agree with people projecting all their human feelings, reactions and ideas into a [b]completely[/b] different species with completely different social and behavioral patterns and ways of communication and thinking. dogs are not little people in fur coats, and thank god they aren't. otherwise i would have a kid and not a dog, and i made that choice quite consciously. ;) i don't understand why people can't show that much respect to dogs and understand that they are different from humans. not "inferior", or "less important" - just [b]different[/b]. think of it as a difference in culture. an american might feel that it is appropriate to hug a person they've just met a little while ago - a japanese would likely find that a very rude thing and think you are a lunatic for even trying. things like these are why so many people are having difficulties training their dogs properly and dump them at the shelter when they are at their wits end. for many, the solution is to simply get another dog, hoping that the new one might "work out" better. just to give you some more things to think about - just like i believe that dogs do not feel guilt, i also believe that they can not deceive or lie. it's simply not in their nature. a dog will [b]always[/b] tell you exactly how he feels, will always be open and honest with you. have you ever watched the face of a dog when he gets petted by someone he doesn't like and holds still nicely, just because you asked him to? unlike a human he won't put on a fake, pleasant smile and say "oh of [b]course[/b] it's a pleasure to meet you". most likely he'll have his ears flat and a facial expression somewhere on the scale between resignation and annoyance. it's just up to you to open your eyes wide enough to see the signals, since there's quite a "language barrier" and the human will have to make just the same effort to learn what different signals of body language mean as the dog has to make an effort to learn what you mean when you barrage him with human-language words like "sit" or "down" or "heel". i said further up that i am not a scientist or a behaviorist. well, i'm not a really good writer either, so i'll leave it up to you to read books written by people like patricia mcconnell, suzanne clothier, gary wilkes, karen pryor, jean donaldson et al. they are true eye openers and i wish at least some of them were mandatory reading for everyone who is buying/adopting a dog. i also wish that more people would be fair to the dogs and try to understand them on their level and in the world [b]they[/b] live in. i guess i better put a disclaimer here for you guys :) by saying that i do [b]not[/b] mean a "lower" or "inferior" level. just different. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kendalyn Posted January 15, 2004 Share Posted January 15, 2004 Guest, maybe you could join and post something like this in the debate section. It is perfect for that purpose! :) Mei-Mei wrote: [quote]it seems rather 'wet-blankety' to bring it up during such a cute conversation[/quote] exactly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aroura Posted January 15, 2004 Share Posted January 15, 2004 Firstly - great post Edgar, it never hurts to look at something from a scientific point of view and you do have some great points!!! Secondly, Guest, when you wrote that first post not one person had even mentioned "guilt". Did I say my dogs felt guilty? No, but they DID know they had done something wrong. Its a conditioned responce as far as I can see it, they are not reading my body language, no, because I havn't even made any yet because I haven't even seen what they have done!!! Rather, they know that if they chew my teddys, or dig holes in the back yard that they will get in trouble, and when they see me I'm sure it triggers a memory of what they have done and what happend last time they did it. I do agree that dogs are "different" to people, and personally I wouldn't say they feel "guilt" as such, but they do know when they have done something wrong and in many cases I think they are alot more intellegent than we think eg Re-run knowing that if he has a saw paw he will not be punnished. :wink: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DogPaddle Posted January 15, 2004 Share Posted January 15, 2004 [quote]but i still don't believe in the common misconceptions like "a dog feels guilty about doing __" or "he did __ just out of spite". i'm also not trying to "put down" a dog as being an inferior animal. i just don't agree with people projecting all their human feelings, reactions and ideas into a completely different species with completely different social and behavioral patterns and ways of communication and thinking[/quote] What then is guilt in people? What are they actually feeling, what motivates them to act the way they do in guilt situations? How would these answers differ if we were talking about dogs? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drjeffrock Posted January 15, 2004 Share Posted January 15, 2004 [quote name='Edgar'][quote] Guilt for example is no "Natural" emotion. Rather its hammered into you by the people and environment around you. [/quote][/quote] :laola: Exactly! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
courtnek Posted January 15, 2004 Share Posted January 15, 2004 "guilt" is nothing more than the acknowledgement that you did something wrong, and knew it was wrong, but you did it anyway... does this exist only for people? I dont think so... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edgar Posted January 15, 2004 Share Posted January 15, 2004 Well I can tell you one thing, as I type this my puppy is busy chewing my foot and there's not an ounce of guilt on his face :D . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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