• Announcements

    • Admin

      Regulamin Forum   12/31/16

      Dogomania na Facebooku
      https://www.facebook.com/groups/DogomaniaPL/    
Sign in to follow this  
Followers 0
BuddysMom

Changing my mind

31 posts in this topic

Up until very recenly (like yesterday) I was ok with very select, responsible AKC type breeding but after reading many posts in this forum and especially the "Mix" thread I'm beginning to change my mind.

We are in a crisis here (speaking for my own country at least). Imagine how much better it would be if everyone who who was going to buy a dog (even IF from a "responsible breeder") were to adopt or rescue one instead?

Yet Nooo, we must pay $500 or more to buy one.

Why not save your money and save a life at the same time??!!

I'm starting to think there is no such thing as a "responsible breeder," period.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I think there are responsible breeders, but I don't think they are..... whats the word.... caring? I think that they should stop breeding them until the population of dogs goes down. When there are no strays then they can start again, so people can adopt a dog.

I dont know if that made any sense at all, just kinda what came out.... :oops:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Someone here once suggested a breeding break of sorts where no one breeds for like 2 years every now and then - maybe once every decade. I think that might be a good option and it wouldn't ruin anyones breeding program.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
First of all, I'm tired and so I don't know if any of what I write will actually make any sense or not... Just want to let you know in advance!


I very much believe that there are responsible, caring, conscientious breeders. I myself was lucky enough to get my dog from one.

Where I live there (luckily) isn't a big overpopulation problem. So maybe my veiws are not the same as they would be if I lived in a part of the world where there are thousands of stray dogs, and thousands of dogs that get put to sleep for no reason other than that there isn't room for them. I do not think that a good solution to that problem would be for responsible breeders to stop breeding, however.

There are many things that you only can do with a purebred dog; conformation, and where I live, you need a purebred to compete in "bruks" (and other things as well, I think). Both of those things are fun and good for both the dog the dog's person. I don't think its right to deny responsible owners the right of owning a purebred dog so they can compete in things that they find interesting. In fact, I don't think its right to deny responsible owners the right to do anything (well, you know what I mean, right) that they would want to do, including owning a dog of a certain breed that comes from a good breeder.

The point of having purebreds was to have dogs that were suitible for certain tasks. And sure, there are tons of shelter dogs (both pure and mixed) that would be perfect for tracking, or retieving, or herding, etc. But sometimes it is nice to know what you are going to get. For example, if I were a serious hunter who needed a good retriever, I would rather get a dog that I knew came from good, proven retrievers than one who might or might not fit my criteria.

Getting dogs from shelters, or adopting strays, is a great thing to do. I too want to someday be able to have a few rescues and maybe foster some. But I will always want to have a purebred from a responsible breeder too, just because I want a dog I can do anything with.

Stopping responsible people from doing something (like breeding in this case) is not a good way to solve a problem. Instead of targeting people who DO care, who ARE good dog people, target the irresponsible scumbags who cause the overpopulations in the first place! Down with backyard breeders, puppy mills, and people who don't spay/neuter their mutts/not exceptional purebreds! And support the people who are responsible, and care- even the breeders!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Well said nea, that all makes sense.

I would not want to see breeds go away, and that is one flaw in my "idyllic" situation.

My feeling that there are "no responsible breeders" is just that, a feeling. And it does come from living in a place where there are MILLIONS of unwanted dogs.

I have also been visiting my local shelters about every other day looking for the right one to adopt, and it's really getting to me!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I wonder how hard it would be to get the majority of folks onboard?

Maybe some of Dogo's breeders would give an opinion on this. Would a 2 year break from breeding once every 10 years mess up your work with your breed? Do you think other breeders could be convinced to do this to help out?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I could kinda see that working for the responsible breeders....but how would you enforce it? What would the penalty be if you broke this "law". How would you get the BYB's out in the middle of nowhere to abide by this "law" , since most rural areas don't care about the wellfair of dogs.

I'm all for restricting breeding but not so much with the very responsible breeders that maybe have a litter ever year or so. I'd prefer to make stricter laws against BYB, puppymills, pet shops, irrisponsible pet owners ect. then to punish the good breeders that don't send hundreads of dogs to shelters every year.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[quote name='DogPaddle']I wonder how hard it would be to get the majority of folks onboard?

Maybe some of Dogo's breeders would give an opinion on this. Would a 2 year break from breeding once every 10 years mess up your work with your breed? Do you think other breeders could be convinced to do this to help out?[/quote]

Well, I consider myself a responsible breeder. It is not the responsible breeders that are causing the overpopulation of pets, purebred and mix alike in this world, altho they are a contributing factor.

Most responsible breeders won't breed a female more than 2 or 3 times max. I bred my first litter when my bitch was 3 years old, I may do it again when she is 5 1/2 then maybe again at 7 1/2 and that is a big maybe.

Breeders should not breed their bitches until at least, a minimum of 3 years of age. This may be different for the toy breeds, I'm not sure. Then the breeder should wait until those pups are at least 2 years old and all pertinent health information is done on the pups to see if there are any genetic diseases or health issues.

So IMHO, responsible breeders already do breed a minimum 2 years apart. If the breeders true goal for breeding is to improve the breed, and they have a bitch or dog who has what it takes to improve the breed, the breeder cannot put a 10 year moratorium on breeding. Any good breeder should not breed any female past the age of 8. Unfortunately, dogs can breed until they are quite old.

The problem is not the breeders, but who they sell their puppies to, making sure the dogs are neutered or spayed (even if that means paying for it) and not following up and staying in contact with their owners.

Having a litter is all fine and good, but it's not "ship them off at 8 weeks old" and that's the end of it. The breeder, if they are responsible, are in that litters life for the next 10 years or so, or until that pup dies from old age.

I speak to my puppy buyers once a month (and my pups at 1 yr 2 months old) and some breeders even have chat rooms for the owners to speak to each other if they want to.

If a breeder is not caring, to their litter or to their owners, then don't buy a dog from them.

Believe me when I tell you I do care about my litter. I drive for hours to visit these pups just to see them and to help the owners with any issues they are having. I have "puppy" parties just to get everyone together and share experiences. No all breeders are uncaring, some, but not all.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Ah, I was thinking voluntary but I guess that's a dream world. Maybe we should just enforce a law that all breedings must be registered with some central group and insist on only 3 litters for purebreads and 1 for other dogs (preferably none but I don't think that would happen.) Fines and cuts of the fine for those who report would help.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Voluntary would be nice, but perhaps that is a dream world.

Also, breeders should not breed a litter unless they have the entire litter sold "before" conception.

To breed just to breed is wrong.

Sadly for many people that breed this is a hobby. There is no money to made. It's a tough situation and call this breeding thing.

After my last litter, the work involved and everything else I swore I would never do it again. But here I am, expecting a litter in October again, but all of my pups are sold to performance homes.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
i'm too lazy to read all of the replys :oops: , so here is what I think and sorry if somebody has already said it.

RESPONSIBLE breeders are NOT the problem.
Responsible breeders only have like one litter a year, sometiems two, but most only have ONE litter EVERY TWO years. and NONE of their pups end up in a shelter or rescue.
There are only a handful of truley responsible breeders out there, too :(

Not all people are cut out for rescue animals either, sounds stupid, but it's true. Not all people can deal with the problems you sometimes have with rescue dogs.

When(though it will never happen :cry: ) the world gets rid of all of the BYB's and PUPPYMILLS, then and only then, will the overpopulation start to decrease and maybe, just maybe go away forever!
but like I said, it's just not going to happen :cry:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Well, I'm just glad to see some folks feel the same way I do... and I certainly have not set out to disparage truly "good" dog breeders...

... And I have not felt that anyone has been defensive (which is probably just another characteristic of BEING a "responsible breeder" as you are!)

Yet I can't help doing the math. You (with the help of your dog) make puppies ... people buy your puppies ... sure that's a beautiful thing! But in the meantime all the unwanteds are ignored because hey, why should anyone give the shelter a glance when thay can buy the perfect dog from You instead?

And also wondering if problems really are fewer with bred dogs than with rescue dogs? Not saying I know, but to me it just seems like it would be the other way around.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
It's a cruel cruel world, and ya just have to do what you can to help the ones who need it.

It may seem that whatever you do, like make a small donation, or foster a couple dogs, or anything of the sort, doesn't count much. But every single donation, no matter how big or small makes a difference in the life of a shelter or rescue dog, and foster homes make a huge difference in the amount of dogs a rescue or shelter take in.

we can't save all of the homeless dogs and we can't make the world "perfect" but we can do our best to make a difference.

Hope that makes sense :oops:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Thank you AllAmerican and Newfiemom ...
I got up early to amend my post of last night, I was tired and had just come from a dinner party where a couple was bragging about making designer dogs with their Yorkie. I should have waited till morning to sign on!

:oops:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Here's my .02... (Keep in mind that this is all in my area. it might be different in yours)

Most of the pet overpopulation problem here is due to irresponsible owners and 'accidental' litters, that could have been prevented had the bitch been spayed or contained in her yard. I volunteered at a large Arizona animal shelter last winter, and 75% of the puppies coming into the shelter were mixed breed litters that NEVER should have happened. BYB, puppy mills and reputable breeders (all who intend to breed) COMBINED don't contribute to the pet overpopulation problem nearly as much as irresponsible pet owners do. JMO. (This isn't a fact, just an observation)

I say, don't ban breeding. Instead, why not enforce stricter spay/neuter laws? Why not have a SEVERE fine & penalty for people who allow unaltered dogs to run at large? (Because that is almost 90% of the reason for unwanted litters, is an unaltered animal getting together with another unaltered animal)

****************************************************

Also, as an answer to someone's question regarding the difference in behavioral problems with pups from a breeder vs. rescue dogs..

Let's face it.. A lot of the dogs in rescue have bad habits. Not that they're not amazing dogs, but some are chewers, some have SA, some have dog or cat aggression, some have nervous tendencies, some are fear biters, and some are just generally difficult dogs.
Now. It's VERY simple to find a rescue dog that will make a good house pet. But in the cases where someone is looking for a well-rounded working dog,(Just as an example, let's say to work in herding) it can be tough to find a good working quality dog in a shelter.

That is where reputable breeders come in. In my case, I wanted an all-purpose working dog (SAR, Herding and agility) ready for anything I would give him. So far, with a 10 week old puppy, that's what I have. He's a blank canvas.
ANY non-genetic behavioral problems that I have with him will be MY fault, because of the environment he was raised in or because of a mistake of mine. This includes dog aggression, cat aggression, nipping, biting, barking and chewing. (The most common reasons dogs are turned into shelters)
With a well-bred purebred puppy, I can be sure that I'm going to be able to raise this dog the way I WANT TO. This is important to me because, should any behavior problems occur later in his life, I will take it better because it was MY training mistake, not some stranger's who previously owned him.
With a well-bred pup, and careful training, you can make sure that he will be free of those behavioral problems, thus being the best candidate for a serous working home.

It's late and I'm probably not making much sense, so I'll stop rambling on now.. But there's my opinion on it all.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Ripley's, you make a lot of sense to me. Thanks for taking the time to explain your position.

The idealist in me agrees with the 2 year ban on breeding, period (This would include BYB's, and everyone by the way; when I see peple bringing this up they are not just saying "let's only target responsible breeders!"

I've also been thinking about freedom / infringement / realistic enforecement through all of this discussion. These to me seem like the most challenging things. Do we want to be, with our dogs, like China has been with people and regulate reproduction?

My first thought is, YES with dogs (in a reasonable manner), but NEVER with people!

(Oh how I can ramble on. Hopefully when I get my "2nd paw" I'd have earned it.) :wink:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I dont think its a bad idea. Now I don't believe that responsible breeders are the problem at all. I know they weren't targeted but when you think about it, if responsible breeders stopped breeding all the accidents, bybs, and mills would still be in oporation and you wont get anything voluntary out of them. If there was a law that said NO ONE could breed for a 2yr period every decade I woulnd't have a problem with it, I dont think it would hurt anything really, it would probably decrease population a lot. Millions and millions of dogs are born every year so it could only help in that case.

The idea that I think is the best however is stopping bybs and irresponsible pet owners. This way ALL those breedings never happen. Starting something national and working its way up. Like first you MUST confine bitches in heat and encouraging spaying of pets and enforcing the law. We have an ordinace that says females in season must be confined but the law does nothing about it and I know of many "accidental" breeding, a few of the females having 3-5 litters think about how many pups that is and how many of those will go on with the same life. So having a law like this and enforcing it, and fining the owners a big one would be great. And MORE with EACH offence. The fine would outway the cost of getting the dog fixed and hopefully get them to wise up. Then stopping byb and puppymills. A minimum breeding age could be set, most byb dont care how young the dogs are (some do) and puppy mills they really dont care. Minimum breeding age may not do a lot, but would save an animal from more risk that come with being bred too young and stop pups from coming for a while and adding a limit to the number of litters they have that could really help a lot. A lot of puppmill females have litters EVERY heat until they die and thats a lot of pups. All breeding dogs MUST be registered, not I know not everydog reg dog is worth breeding, but this would help keep track of how many litters the dog has, at what age and how many were in each litter.
I think that buyer education is also imporant. Because a lot of buyers dont know the different between bybs and responsible breeders. They have no idea. So if we deter them and teach them to look for the signs they can buy from responsible breeders OR adopt a dog from a shelter and give it a 2nd chance as a pet. Bybs is a bad cycle, a byb sells to another byb who breeds and sells to another owner who becomes a byb. Some encourage it, some one will go looking simply for a pet and the breeder will say you can bring her back when she comes in heat and breed her to one of my males, or whens he's older you can put him up for stud and make some money.....they encourage others to do the same with the pups they have breed. also responsible breeders need to open themselves up some, at this time I dont think that is a safe or good idea. But on another board some one made a very good point that responsible breeders dont openly make themselves available to the public. If they don't advertise dogs then its hard for some one to find them and buy from them, or if they had all their dogs already in homes then where do people go to find a pet bybs. But if you do advertise and do sell to general public, how do you know, even with very good screening and contracts sometimes one dog slips, some one was a very good con artist and has a puppy mill some where out in the woods or they just decide they don't feel like honoring your contract and turn out to be some one different. I dont want to take that chance, but it was a good point. Maybe encouraging them to look in shelters would help? Another reason some people go to bybs is because they are intimidated by the reputable ones.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Not being part of the problem is not enough- if these 'responsible breeders' really care about their breed, they would be heavily involved in rescue (And I know some are) Taking back a dog of your own breeding is NOT rescue. Volunteering at 2 or 3 adoption events a year is not 'heavily involved'.

Showing your dogs, health testing your dogs, breeding the best to the best - yeah, that's all fine and well. It helps your puppies, it helps the people who buy your puppies, but it does jack squat for the dog in the shelter who had the misfortune of being born in a red neck's barn instead of your clean whelping room, and of being sold to the first joe with 500 bucks instead of a carefully screened home.

And no, it isn't the fault of a 'good breeder', but too many 'good breeders' act like there is nothing they can do about it. "Oh, isn't it a shame - that poor little thing. He needs someone to treat his mange and get him pretty again so he can find a new home. It really is too bad.." Yeah, too bad you don't really care about your breed.

I know everyone has their limits - no one can rescue every labrador or every beagle, and I don't expect them too. But I'd love to see more of them saying 'You know what, I am going to just eat all the costs myself on this litter and donate the money from the pups to breed rescue so they can vet those 3 dogs they just rescued from from the shelter', or 'We have a lot of experience with whelping and puppy raising and won't be having a litter of our own for a while - next time you get in a litter or a bitch about to whelp, we'll foster them'.

Forgive me if you're one of those breeders who really is doing their share for dogs of their breed (not just the betterment of their breed).

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[quote][quote]Breeders should not breed their bitches until at least, a minimum of 3 years of age. This may be different for the toy breeds, I'm not sure. Then the breeder should wait until those pups are at least 2 years old and all pertinent health information is done on the pups to see if there are any genetic diseases or health issues.[/quote]


While I agree with most of what you said, it really depends on which breed you're dealing with.
With bull terriers, I feel 3 is a little old to having a first litter. The 3rd season is ideal, and any bitch over 6 years is a little too old to be breeding from MTCW[/quote]

I agree that it depends on what breed you have when it comes to ages. I don't think 3 is too old or too young for a first litter. 8 years is probably okay for their last litter. So it depends on what breed you have to judge ages correctly, on terrificpets they were saying how anyone who would breed a 6 yr old or a dog over 6yrs was sick. So everyone has their own opinions and differences in breeding ages.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I really care about my breed, thats one reason I do breed. Maybe you don't realize how much it takes to breed. To be heavily involved in rescue and neglect your own dogs just doesn't make sense. Then you wouldn't be considered a very good dog owner.

Of course doing the right things with your dogs and taking care of them just isn't enough is it? Because its not helping those pups in a shelters? No it isn't responsible breeders fault, so why should they badgered for it or for not doing anything about it. Why aren't the irresponsible breeders targeted, why is action not taken against them. Why isn't energy put into stopping these breeders and puppymills. There is only so much rescue you can do because their are [b]not enough[/b] available homes, if every breeder rescued there still wouldn't be no where to rehome the dogs they didn't keep. Think about it when each person needs to own 9 dogs for them all to have homes, that won't happen. Some people don't own or like dogs at all, many don't have time or facilities to own that many pets and thats just per person for a family of 4 that is 36 dogs. Rescue as many as you can and thats all you can do. Just about any breeder I know would take a litter of pups, to raise and rehome them. Regardless of taking in a litter or a rescue dog to rehome it, they always eat the cost of breeding, the couple pups they might sell doesn't near touch the cost of breeding and goes back into the dogs. I can't think of a breeder who wouldn't take a dog in need in and help it. I think a lot of misplaced anger is put on breeders. They shouldn't have to do anything at all and it wouldn't mean they didn't love the breed, but they do (they love all dogs) because they simply love dogs and do all they can for them. When they find a stray or see a dog in need they HELP it regardless of its breed, they breed Pits and are taking in a Lab or Sheltie because they love dogs. It has nothing to do with loving your breed, its about being a caring person and taking care of animals like we(as humans) should be. When I can't help a dog or take a pup, I try to find some one else who can and I cantact breed specific rescue to take them. Especially ones with potenial, they have the power to take dogs out of shelters also, so finding a wonderful prospect is great when you contact them and they get the dog in a home.
Now if they have a non caring attitude then that would piss me off too! If they can see a stray pup with mange and just walk by and "feel sorry" for it, instead of picking it up, taking it home and getting it cared for and in a good home. Actually it has nothing to do with breeders if [b]any[/b] person or pet owner does this it would make me mad. Not just breeders, if you own dogs, love dogs, but would do nothing for a dog in need instead say, poor pup he got hit by a car and doesn't have a home......that to me is inhuman, seeing a need and not doing anything about it, whether your a breeder or not. And if you are not, then you probably have room, time, ect, for just one pup.

So I don't see it as doing your share for your breed, dogs need help, dog lovers with the means should help them, regardless of the dogs breed or if the person is a breeder or not.

[quote]Not being part of the problem is not enough- if these 'responsible breeders' really care about their breed, they would be heavily involved in rescue (And I know some are) Taking back a dog of your own breeding is NOT rescue. Volunteering at 2 or 3 adoption events a year is not 'heavily involved'.

Showing your dogs, health testing your dogs, breeding the best to the best - yeah, that's all fine and well. It helps your puppies, it helps the people who buy your puppies, but it does jack squat for the dog in the shelter who had the misfortune of being born in a red neck's barn instead of your clean whelping room, and of being sold to the first joe with 500 bucks instead of a carefully screened home.

And no, it isn't the fault of a 'good breeder', but too many 'good breeders' act like there is nothing they can do about it. "Oh, isn't it a shame - that poor little thing. He needs someone to treat his mange and get him pretty again so he can find a new home. It really is too bad.." Yeah, too bad you don't really care about your breed.

I know everyone has their limits - no one can rescue every labrador or every beagle, and I don't expect them too. But I'd love to see more of them saying 'You know what, I am going to just eat all the costs myself on this litter and donate the money from the pups to breed rescue so they can vet those 3 dogs they just rescued from from the shelter', or 'We have a lot of experience with whelping and puppy raising and won't be having a litter of our own for a while - next time you get in a litter or a bitch about to whelp, we'll foster them'.

Forgive me if you're one of those breeders who really is doing their share for dogs of their breed (not just the betterment of their breed).[/quote]

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
JustThere, in the ideal world, every rescuer would help with rescues. Unfortunately, it takes a LOT of money and resources to be a good breeder, let alone a good breeder AND rescuer. Some breeders don't rescue not because they don't care, but because it would mean neglecting their own dogs.

~Seij

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
K your post made me smile thinking about the vast differences in mothering skills among my friend's band of Arabian horses (which I wish they would not breed no matter how good the lines, there's too many Arabians too...) But it's neat thet they have learned to consider the mare's temprament in addition to bloodlines, genetics, etc. in making breeding decisions.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Kiwi I know that some breeds are better off being bred younger and stopping younger. I wish I could say I knew all the ins and outs of breeding all different breeds but I don't :lol:

With Belgian Sheepdogs, it's best to wait til 3 years of age for females and 5 for males. If you can get thru the first 3 - 4 years with no seizures you are basically in good shape to breed, if you have something worth breeding.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I do think there is a place for responsible breeders, they provide us with some excellent companion animals and working partners. I just wish there was a way to stop ALL irresponsible breeding. I just don't think that will happen. :(

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
The thing about laws, as its already been said, is people break them all the time. Spay/neuter laws and even breeding bans wont help all that much because theres always going to be idiots out there who just wont listen.

Ive made my stance on this very clear before so I wont get started on it in details again. My thoughts are: If you're not helping to stop the problem, you're part of it. May be harsh but lets face it, it's true; nothing is going to stop, unless everyone starts to work toward stopping the overpopulation problem.


Some thoughts of mine...

-adopting dogs out should be a lot stricter (I know I want to see them adopted but records should be looked up about people)

-breed clubs need to set limits (as said before, health checks need to be done and the breeder should be interviewed as well as the kennel being checked out so that only responsible people are breeding registered dogs)

-there needs to be more money going toward spay&neuter programs (free or low pay for animals so people dont say its too expensive and the animals end up reproducing :roll: )

-more education programs on animal rights (it seems like people treat animals like they do because of the way they were raised)


Hmmm... I know theres more but cant think of anything else right now.

Oh and my long-needed apology to all the breeders I hurt from before. I went back and read some of the things I wrote before and I was shocked at myself. I NEVER realized just HOW rude I was to you all! :oops: :cry: IM SO SORRY!!! Please no hard feelings... gosh what a difference a half a year can make on your maturity! :(

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!


Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.


Sign In Now
Sign in to follow this  
Followers 0