Seijun Posted December 4, 2004 Share Posted December 4, 2004 The lady with the two mals labled wolf hybrids lost her case... :x The dogs have now been ordered to leave the state or be PTS. Pictures of the dogs, Odin and Razor, can be seen here: [url]http://tinyurl.com/4agd3[/url] Email address= [email][email protected][/email] Password= heckner The previous topic concerning this is here: [url]http://forum.dogomania.com/viewtopic.php?t=16553&postdays=0&postorder[/url] To read up on details of how the trial went, please visit: [url]http://www.wildpaw.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=2360&st=45[/url] Peggy Callahan is a self-proclaimed wolf expert who would prefer that all wolf hybrids be killed anyway, and the judge in the case basically had his mind made up from the beginning on how to rule in the trial. I talked to Kimberly and according to her the judge never even looked at any of the information presented to him by the defense. She is planning to fight it though, something must be done to stop this insanity... BTW, here is an article concerning the case, of course it does not mention the overwhelming evidence the defense frovided to prove the dogs were mals, and the total lack of evidence her opponents had... [quote]City rules wolf dogs must go Kimberly Grebowski testified her dogs are Alaskan Malamutes and 'fun-loving boys.' But experts disagree, so she must find a new home for her pets. BY ROBERT INGRASSIA Pioneer Press A St. Paul pet owner cried Friday after listening to a verdict she had hoped never to hear: Odin and Razor are part wolf. Kimberly Grebowski doesn't believe it, insisting that her pets are Alaskan malamutes. But with a hearing officer concluding otherwise, Grebowski now must find a home for her companions outside St. Paul. "I can't believe that this determination has come out the way it has," Grebowski said, tears rolling down her cheeks. "They are two happy, fun-loving boys, my babies, who have not ever done anything to anybody, not so much as a scratch." Odin and Razor have been confined to the city animal pound since Aug. 25, when an animal control officer caught them running unleashed near Grebowski's East Side home. What would have typically been a short incarceration (for the dogs) and a fine (for Grebowski) turned into a serious ordeal when Bill Stephenson, the city's animal control supervisor, and an outside wildlife expert concluded that Odin and Razor were wolf-dog hybrids. City code bans such animals. Grebowski and her supporters fought Friday to overturn Stephenson's finding. During a two-hour hearing at City Hall, a malamute breeder and other backers told a hearing officer that Odin and Razor looked like malamutes, not wolves. "I haven't seen anything in Odin and Razor to conclude they are anything but Alaskan malamutes," said Sheila Timbers-Hjermstad, a Plymouth-based breeder. Grebowski's sister, Aimmy Vang, testified that Odin and Razor are great pets. "My children have been around Odin and Razor since they were pups," said Vang, whose five children range in age from 5 to 15. "My son has pulled both their tails and pulled their ears and done all sorts of things and these dogs have never shown anything aggressive." Wolf expert Peggy Callahan, testifying on the city's behalf, said she believed the animals are hybrids. "I'm giving a very educated guess," said Callahan, executive director of the Wildlife Science Center in Forest Lake. "I've been looking at wolves a long time, and I think these are wolf hybrids." City officials and their two expert witnesses acknowledged that no scientific test exists to determine if an animal is part wolf. Experts examine an animal's looks and behavior to form an opinion about an animal's lineage. Hearing officer Marcia Moermond gave Grebowski until Monday afternoon to decide whether she wanted to find a home for the animals outside St. Paul. Moermond ordered city officials not to destroy Odin and Razor before Jan. 1, regardless of what Grebowski decides. "I wish I could've given you a better outcome," Moermond told Grebowski. "I can't in good conscience do that." Grebowski said she is considering sending the animals to a facility outside Minnesota. She said she also is contemplating appealing Moermond's decision to the state Court of Appeals, which city officials said is the designated venue to challenge such rulings. One matter left unsettled is the bill Grebowski is facing to get her animals from the pound. The normal boarding fee would be $14 per day per animal, a tab reaching nearly $3,000 in her case. City officials have agreed to discount the charge, but no specific amount has been set. [url]http://www.twincities.com/mld/twincities/news/10335363.htm[/url][/quote] ~Seij Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
imported_Matty Posted December 4, 2004 Share Posted December 4, 2004 It didnt say what else the dogs did. Where they stalking livestock. In some areas if a dog is caught stalking livestock they can be shot on site. It all sounds innocent enough on the owners part that the dogs just got loose one day. But, is it that innocent? I have seen a few owners cry over their dogs being confiscated and denying the dogs ever ran at large. Only to find out later the dogs had been a nuisance in the neighborhood for quite some time. Its good that people are coming forward if the dogs seemed dangerous. YOu always hear after some one was killed or horribly attacked by a dog that they always knew the dog was a problem, or that they were always a little timid, or the dog was a bother Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seijun Posted December 4, 2004 Author Share Posted December 4, 2004 The dogs had done nothing but get lose that one day. AC, who had originally confiscated the dogs as "hybrids" even stated recently that the two dogs had the best temparments of any of the dogs they had in the shelter, even from the day they first arrived at the shelter. ~Seij Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
imported_Matty Posted December 4, 2004 Share Posted December 4, 2004 OK, it just didnt say that in the info you gave. It said in one part about finding dogs stalking livestock. Wasnt sure if that was these dogs or not. :wink: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
imported_Kat Posted December 5, 2004 Share Posted December 5, 2004 they really don't look like malamutes at all... To me from what I have seen of wolfdogs they are hybrid timber wolves. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seijun Posted December 6, 2004 Author Share Posted December 6, 2004 Heh, if you or anyone else thinks they are hybrids, please point out to me exactly what part of them looks like a wolf. I can tell you from experience, there is not one wolf-like quality in either of those dogs. Not even Peggy and her "team" of "experts" could find any. BTW, if you're having trouble, here's a webpage to help out: [url]http://www.geocities.com/durkriswen/[/url] ~Seij Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
imported_Kat Posted December 6, 2004 Share Posted December 6, 2004 does this woman have pedigrees for the dogs to substantiate her story? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seijun Posted December 6, 2004 Author Share Posted December 6, 2004 The dogs came from a mal breeder, but I don't know if she had papers for them or not. The mals have smaller feet and bigger ears then what you would see on most Malamutes so there is a possibility they have husky in them but IMO a mal of that quality could have come from any byb. These dogs were pets, not show quality dogs. Besides, the only thing they had saying they were hybrids was the word of a neighbor (so I was told originaly, and malamum here knows perfectly well how good the "average Joe" is as identifying hybrids :wink: ) the word of the shelter (who had previousy labeled an Irish Wolfhound as a wolf hybrid (shows how much they know) the word of Peggy (who's only "evidence" was yellow eyes and something about they way the dogs stood-BS) and an FDR agent (who thought one might be domestic and the other a hybrid-the dogs are siblings, hello?? :roll: ). However, Kim had the word of many, MANY people experienced with mals, including breeders and rescuers, some being in the top ranks as far as their kind, to say that the dogs were mals, and at best, perhaps mixed with husky. But Kat, hon, why do you think she should have to prove they're [i]not[/i] hybrids if the court couldn't even prove if they [i]were[/i]? It makes no sense, and it's part of the reason why ANY sort of BSL should be shot down. It gives those people the right to confiscate any dog they think looks like a wolf, regardless of whether or not they have any proof! It's the same with the bully breeds. ~Seij Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
imported_Debbie Posted December 6, 2004 Share Posted December 6, 2004 :( That is simply just wrong.......... That poor woman and her dogs....... I wonder if she'll be able to move and take them ? The so-called experts slay me !!!!! :x Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShatteringGlass Posted December 7, 2004 Share Posted December 7, 2004 [quote name='Seijun']The dogs came from a mal breeder, but I don't know if she had papers for them or not. [/quote] If she didn't keep the papers, couldn't she go to the breeder for help? Or if they where registered with the AKC, she could get they're registration/pedigree on their website? The article didn't really say much about how she was defending that they were Malamutes :niewiem: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
imported_Kat Posted December 7, 2004 Share Posted December 7, 2004 Seijun I am by no means an expert at all but I have seen wolves and wolfdogs through behavioural consultations and through fostering and just by the photos it looks like those pair are hybrids. Beautiful animals and they shouldn't be condemned if they haven't done anything. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seijun Posted December 7, 2004 Author Share Posted December 7, 2004 ShatteringGlass, the breeder was a byb and did not want to get involved. That's why there are no papers. The malamute claim was defended by using the fact that the dogs came from a mal breeder and that Peggy and her team could not find any wolfy traits on the dogs to identify them as a hybrid. It was also defended using numerous presentations explaining wolf from dog, which the judge never bothered to look at. Kat, I would love to see the wolves and hybrids you worked with, because these two dogs are nothing more than backyard-bred mals perhaps with a little husky in them. Small paws, big ears, short legs, defined stop, rounded skull, short muzzle, pink noses, defined markings, etc all point directly away from wolf heritage. ~Seij Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rowie-the-Pooh Posted December 7, 2004 Share Posted December 7, 2004 Don't have any words, the poor woman! :( Will she move? Re-home them? Keep us updated! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seijun Posted December 7, 2004 Author Share Posted December 7, 2004 She has made arrangements for them to be sent to someone outside the state. In the meantime, she plans to fight this anyway she can. ~Seij Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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