Horsefeathers...

[Smooshie]

I have a question for you.
A woman on one of my Boxer forums has a terrier that is having severe allergies/skin issues, to the point where she is wondering if it is better to have him euthanized then to have him keep suffering. This reminded so much of some of your little Devin's skin issues...I was wondering if you have any suggestions you could give her???

Here is her original post.

[quote] Tell me what a horrible person I am

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I rescued my border terrier from the shelter in March, the very day that I heard a good friend of mine had died. When I got him, he was missing hair and had hotspots, and the shelter told me he had been crawling with fleas when he was picked up as a stray, and that he had flea allergies.

Time went on but though he was flea-free he never stopped itching or tearing himself apart. We tried different foods but there was no change. We did steroid therapy, no change. Benedryl didn't touch it. He was in an Elizabethan collar from almost a week after I got him and has worn it pretty much constantly until now.

He went to see the dermatologist, who said he had a yeast infection (that he was also allergic to) as well as a small spot of demodex. His immune system is compromised and he's allergic to cats and the nickle on his tags. That was over six weeks ago. He's on four different types of pills, a cream for the demodex spot, and special medicated shampoos twice a week. Six weeks of stressing him out with shoving pills down his throat twice a day (he hates it) and giving him constant baths (which he hates even more). I do have cats, but I was trying to get his infections taken care of so that he could go and stay with my mother, who has no cats.

But nothing has changed. He itches constantly. Even with his collar on he rubs against corners and walls and my legs, and twists about on the floor trying to get relief. The medications have not helped in the slightest. If anything his yeast infection has gotten worse. I can't take his collar off even for a moment because he will tear holes in his sides and back and ears within literal seconds. The dermatologist wants to do some more testing (another $600) before we even decide what the next step is. Meanwhile, my baby is so miserable he can barely sleep, and while he remains upbeat, playing with my other dog and happy to see me and go on his walks, that constant itching is taking a toll. He gets so stressed from the baths and medications he starts retching.

Am I horrid in thinking that six months of this with no improvement (in fact, with worsening) in sight that its time to stop, and to help him on his way to the Bridge? I wouldn't think anything of paying the dermatologist another $600 and another five thousand if I had to for medications or other crap if he was showing some...ANY...signs of improvement, but he's just not getting better. Even with his collar on he licks it incessantly trying to lick his feet or his legs.

I feel like a really horrible person for even thinking its time to just stop and let him go on, but I can't emotionally deal with watching him suffering like this constantly with no end or relief in sight. I'm afraid that if I take him into the vet and ask them to euthanize him they'll think I'm a terrible pet owner who just doesn't want to deal with their animal anymore. I know that's not true...I mean, I'm at the vet often enough they know me by first name and I pay their car payments taking care of my babies for every little sniffle and sneeze, but I still feel like I'm a horrid horrid person, and they will think that I am too.

Please, anyone...what do you think? Is it time to let him go? Am I horrid for thinking that it is?[/quote]

[courtnek]

IMO, she is not horrid for wanting to let him go. He is not happy, healthy or content. If the doctors cant find out what's wrong, and treat it, I dont believe he should suffer. Possibly if HF has no answers, check a holistic site. that;s all I can offer...

:( :( :(

[ESSlover]

[quote name='courtnek']IMO, she is not horrid for wanting to let him go. He is not happy, healthy or content. If the doctors cant find out what's wrong, and treat it, I dont believe he should suffer. Possibly if HF has no answers, check a holistic site. that;s all I can offer...

:( :( :([/quote]

I agree. If the vets can't find some releif for him, I dont think they should let him suffer.... :cry:

BTW courtnek-I love your new siggy! :wink:


[i]Note: edited cause I cant spell worth a darn....[/i]

[imported_Kat]

This is a difficult situation to address. When I worked at the surgery we saw so many dogs (westies in particular) that had dermatological conditions and unfortunately some of those dogs were so miserable that we were doing them a kindness in euthanasing them.

The best drugs that we found to control skin problems were piriton and prednisolone with brewers yeast powder and malaseb shampoo. Of course this owner will want all avenues explored for her pet. Keep us updated on the little dog. What age is he by the way?

[Horsefeathers!]

Smooshie, I promise I'm not ignoring this post. I'm just kind of blowing through right now and doing about 10 gazillion other things, but as soon as things settle back to normal, I'll try to come back to it. Maybe in the meantime, TDG or Cassie or newfie or someone else pretty knowledgeable may be able to think of something else. Either way, I'll try to come back to this a little later. I just didn't want to seem like I was blowing it off. :oops:

[Smooshie]

np Horsefeathers....I understand completely :wink: With all this Hurricane activity. I've barely had an opportunity to blow thru here myself. Take your time , and take care! I'll check back in a cpl days once this crazy weather passes.

Kat- Thank you for your input. I'll pass it on to her. :D I'm not sure what age the little guy is...I know she adopted him from rescue.

[courtnek]

Is prednisolone the same as prednisone? a steroid? that's a thought.....I have heard of people using steroids for excessive allergy/itching problems. I never considered it for a dog ( :oops: )

Does it have any/bad side affects?

Thanks Ess about the sig. I love that picture...

8)

[imported_Kat]

Hi Court, yes Prednisolone is a steroid based drug but we kept the dogs who needed it on a very low dose and there were no side effects of weight gain at all as we had the owners well educated.

[imported_Matty]

Two books that might have some info on a more holistic approach to treatment are Dr M Goldstein's The Nature Of Animal Healing, Martin Zucker's Veterinarians' Guide To Natural Remedies For Dogs and Dr Pitcairn has recipes in his book Guide To Natural Health For Dogs & Cats thatmay be helpful.

You could also suggest doing some research on NAET (Dr Nambudripad's Allergy Elimination Technique). It uses acupuncture, chiropractic and nutrition to help eliminate food and environmental allergies. I dont know a whole lot about it, but it might be worth looking into.

[Horsefeathers!]

See, I knew that Cassie would come up with way more than I could. Perhaps you should crosspost this in the health or care section where TDG is more likely to see it as well. You're bound to get some good info there, too.

One thing that comes to my mind is the potential for thyroid disorders. I would suggest having a full thyroid panel run. Not the "regular" panel, but ask for the full Michigan panel which is supposed to be able to pick up things that the "regular" thyroid panels don't. Also, I do know we are seeing a dog at our clinic with very similar symptoms as those described and he was treated for at least a couple of years by a couple of vets for everything from yeast infection to demodex before our vet discovered that this dog has Cushings and an adrenal gland tumor. The dog is dying, but at least they have a diagnosis.

The thing is that there are so many things that can go wrong that manifest themselves in the form of bad skin. Anything from food allergies to contact allergies to immune disorders to thyroid disorders and so on. It can be very difficult to find out exactly what's wrong. With Devin, it seems a lot of his problems are indeed food allergies and contact allergies. There seem to be more things he CAN'T eat than things he CAN eat and it's been (and still is) a long, hard road experimenting. He also gets a bath at least once weekly, preferably twice, in a soap free hypoallergenic shampoo simply because it seems to help in removing any contact allergens he picks up. I like Hylyt or Eqyss Premier for gentle cleaning (not medicated), but for flareups when I want to help soothe his itching (in addition to other measures), I do prefer Eqyss MicroTek. I've had better results with this (not only with Devin, but client dogs) than any of the prescribed medicated shampoos. Again, this is just my experience with Devin and a few clients. These things help, but we're still in the process of finding things that work and figuring out what's "wrong" with him (a combination of things).

I don't know that I'd be ready to put the little fellow down yet when there seem to be other things to try, but only she knows her budget and what she is able to do. That's a judgment call only she can make.

I wish I knew other things to suggest. I really would consider posting this in health or care and let TDG take a look. She has a much broader range of information than I do.

I wish this little pup well and hope he finds some relief.

[Horsefeathers!]

The posts are out of order. :-?

[imported_Cassie]

My first suggestion to this person would be to immediately work to get the dogs immune system healthy. You could suggest the books previously posted by Matty for some recipe ideas for home prepared meals for dogs with suppressed immune systems. Advise the owner to cut back on the grains in the dogs diet, most dog foods are much too high in grains which can cause many problems. TDG would have ALOT more info on the topic of food :wink:
I would also be adding more omega 3 fattys acids to the dogs diet. Good sources for omega 3's are sardines, wild salmon, ground flax seeds/ or flax oil, haddock, and cod, and gamma-linolenic acid (GLA), found in evening primrose, borage, and black currant seed oil. A combination of the Omega-3s and GLA seems to have the most potent effect. I would also give a vitamin E pill, I give my dogs 400 IU of mixed E topcopherols every other day. Vitamin is stored in the liver so an over dose is possible, although I have never heard of one. I have also found Hemp oil to be a wonderful source of omega 3,6 and 9 fatty acids.

This person can prepared their own topical treatments for the irritated areas on the dog...a spritz can be made from a tea brewed from calendula flowers, spray on several times a day, directly to the lesion. Other herbs such as chamomile, yarrow , lavender , and mullein may also be added to the herbal brew.

You could suggest to this person some ways to to improve the dogs immunity. Some people like to detoxify first. Then add herbal liver helpers such as dandelion root , and milk thistle seeds. Also try to return the gut to a normal flora by adding beneficial bacteria by adding probiotics to the dogs diet, also increase the dietary fiber in your dogs diet, I like to add ground flax seeds (organic only).
Also try to balance the immune system using herbs such as echinacea (don't use for more than 3 weeks), or you can use Siberian ginseng.
I add astralagus to my dogs food, I find this works wonders in building the immune system (I use it myself in the winter to ward of colds and flues, it works). Garlic is also a great anti viral, immunity boosting addition, just don't over due it.
Its also a good idea to add immune enhancing supplements including vitamins C and A and zinc may also be helpful. I also find it beneficial to add a B-50 complex vitamin to my dogs food every other day.

For a natural anti-inflammatory or cortisone-like herb try licorice root...this may enhance the adrenal gland and also take some of the itch away.

A healthy immune system helps dogs deal with allergies. Some times over vaccinating a dog can add stress on the immune system as well making the immune system weak.

A phone consult with Dr. Goldstein's office is a great start.
His office numer in NY is 914-533-6066 and the website for great natural
supplements is [url]www.earthanimal.com[/url] <http://www.earthanimal.com> .


A good natural remedy is quercetin -- a bioflavonoid obtained from buckwheat and citrus fruit -- . This is a natural product available in most health food stores that appears to stabilize the cells of the immune system that release histamine, the mediator of allergic reactions. Its action is preventive rather than symptomatic, and so should be taken regularly. I have not heard of any one using this for dogs yet, so I would check with a holistic vet before thinking about using this.


Some people suggest using stinging nettle plant. It will relieve allergy symptoms readily, and has no toxicity. Instead of side effects, you get bonus trace minerals. The best form to buy is a freeze-dried extract of the leaves, sold in capsules. Again, this is some thing I have heard of people using for severe auto immune disorders and allergies, so please have this person check with a holistic vet before administrating.

Taking Benadryl or other antihistamines as a solution merely suppresses the allergic response. Regular use of them may actually perpetuate allergy and interfere with reeducation of the immune system.

The problems this dog is experiencing are extreme, I would certainly try a holistic healing program with a certified holistic vet. If she is willing to spend a few bucks then she can bring this dog back to health.
I have a friend who adopted a white Boxer with skin conditions just as bad as what this person is going through. She kept at it and healed the dog from the inside out instead of just treating the symptoms as most conventional vets do. She has had tremendous success and has a healthy happy boxer which she is not embarressed to take into the public any more. The dog was so raw and red and ribby looking that when she tried to walk the dog in public people would accuse her of neglect and abuse. :(
I just wanted to add that my friends Boxers allergies are so severe that she was unable to feed a home prepared diet as the dog was constantly breaking out. She has had good luck with Californias natural dog food.

Sorry for such a long post :lol: :wink:

[Smooshie]

Not at all....keep the suggestions coming! The more info we can supply her with, the better chance she may find something that works for her.....thanks guys.

[imported_Matty]

Yeast infections
Like bacteria, yeast are common secondary invaders when conditions are right. Yeast infections of the skin typically appear as fairly uniformly red areas with a scaly, oily appearance. The dog usually has a pronounced "doggy" odor. In the ears, the odor and redness are similar and the discharge is usually medium to dark brown. The type of yeast that dogs get on their skin and in their ears is called Malassezia and is different from the Candida infections that sometimes affect women. Malassezia is common in areas of the skin that have excessive oils, moisture, and skin debris. These areas tend to be the ears, in between toes, around the nail beds, in the underarm (axillary) and groin (inguinal) regions, under the neck, and around the anal area. Certain breeds seem to be more prone than others, such as Cocker spaniels, Basset hounds, and West Highland White terriers. Yeast infections are never the primary problem, so when there is an overgrowth of yeast, look for an underlying cause. Allergies are a common cause. However, if only the allergy is addressed and not the yeast, the skin problem will often persist. Sometimes all that is necessary in treating yeast is topical therapy: removal of the skin debris and oils and allowing good air circulation. However, when the body conditions are favorable and the yeast has gotten out of control, oral medication such as Nizoral is often needed, sometimes with a prolonged "maintenance" period of treatment.

In ears, mild cleansers using vinegar and boric acid as active ingredients are useful for keeping yeast under control. Most ear cleansers should be used no more than once a week or they may irritate delicate ear canal tissues. On the skin, shampoos and conditioners using chlorhexidine, vinegar, or benzoyl peroxide are useful for treating yeast. Benzoyl peroxide products are also particularly useful for cleansing excessive skin oils. Since yeast is always a secondary invader, one must be just as aware of the general condition of the skin as of the yeast that is being controlled on it.

In conclusion
Because skin problems so often have both primary and secondary causes, it is important to evaluate everything that is occuring, not just to concentrate on the most obvious problem. Usually, it is necessary to treat any secondary problems before the underlying problems can even be assessed, much less treated. Although a step-wise approach may take a little longer, the result is a much more accurate view of the "bigger picture." Since most skin problems in dogs tend to recur, having an accurate view of the "bigger picture" will tend decrease both the discomfort and the total requirement for medications over the course of your dog's lifetime.