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zheelah

working tests for working breeds

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Should a dog of a working breed be able to become champion with out having to show any ability to work in any way??

Should a retriever be able to become champion with out being able to hunt, or a borded collie become a champion if it doesn't herd or work in any other way???

Should a dog be used for breeding if he only looks the way the breed is supposed to look, but can't do the work the breed was developed to do??

I would love to hear your thoughts

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Okay, I am assuming you are talking about conformation. It doesnt matter to me, I will explain. The fact that my Akita has never hunted Bears or Boars makes no difference to me (Joe Blow the average pet owner). What is more important to me is her temperament, health issues, etc. With Dex, he has not proven himself at fighting with other dogs, and I plan on keeping it that way. I dont really think super highly of many so-called Champions and kennel clubs, and I dont think a hunter looking for the perfect retreiver would base his opinion on a dogs conformation title.

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I thought that the idea of confirmation shows was to say that in theory your dog has all the necessary attributes to enable it to perform the tasks for which the breed was created. And then as a secondary aspect there are working titles that the dog can gain.

As a purchaser I would probably look for a breeder that has both confirmation and working titles for their dogs.

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In some cases it's not possible for the dog to do the work it was originally intended to do, so even just a simple aptitude test that the dog can work in a way traditional to the breed would be enough IMO, better than the nothing KCs require now, or allow any of several tests to count (like weight pulling, agility, or the like for APBTs, just something to weed out people breeding incredibly sloppy oversized (overweight too) dogs that get out of breath walking to get the mail).

In Germany (I think?) GSDs are required to have hips scored and have working aptitude tested, or their offspring cannot be registered with the KC.

If people wanted conformation to be the only requirement for championing a dog out, then why not add another category (title, whatever) for dogs that can work AND conform to the breed standard for looks.

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In Germany a GSD MUST have a show rating, be breed suveyed, have a hip rating, AND have either a Schutzhund title, OR an HGH. (Which is a herding title.)

There are quite a few breeders in the US that breed this way too. (But not nearly enough.) But there IS a problem with this system too. There are dogs out there that get titles that shouldn't. It really isn't that hard to get a SchH1 on a dog. But it is STILL better than nothing.

As far as conformation, that is all well and fine. But just because a dg has the conformation to do the job does NOT mean that it has the instinct, trainability or brains to do it.

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Well IMO any dog that was breed in the beginning as a working dog should have to with stand a test that prooves that it can work before it is bred. As Black GSD stated in another post, dogs can have bad temperment and still become a show champion, and that is probably the only title a dog can gain with out being able to learn and work with his owner (although most real show dogs are very well trained for the ring).

I don't necciserily mean that a dog has to be able to do the work it was originally bred for if that work is not done any more, I don't want Borzoi owners to start hunting wolfes or anything.

Well let me tel you how the sistem works here, I have a dobermann, he has been shown and is on his way to become a champion. The requierments for him to become a champion is that he has earned three cc, has his hips rated, has done his mentaltest and passed, an he has to pass a obedience and tracking test (protection training is forbidden here).
To me this is not to much, this states that my dog, who is of a working breed, needs to look like the breed standards states, be healthy, have a good temperment and be able to learn and work before he becomes a champion and deserves it.

I think that when breeding a working dog, if it cant do the work it is bred for the breeders are doing something very wrong. A Border collie should be able to herd, a Golden retriever should be able to retrieve a bird, a pointer should be able to find a bird, if they cant they should not be bred, no matter how good looking they are. The same goes for a working champion, dogs can become ahunting champion, but it should still have to fulfill some requierments of the way it looks. We have many breeds that have two types of dogs, working dogs and show dogs, they should be the same or at least more like each other than they have become.

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[quote name='zheelah'] We have many breeds that have two types of dogs, working dogs and show dogs, they should be the same or at least more like each other than they have become.[/quote]

And in some breeds like the GSD, there are even more "types" than that. There is the American Show lines, German Show lines, German Working lines, Czech and DDR (What used to be East Germany) lines. Then there are those dogs that are a combination of any of the above lines. There are also those that we GSD people call the American BYB lines. Oh and the White lines too :roll: . And not only are the looks as different as night and day between the lines, but so are the tempements and working ability(or LACK of it :evil: .)

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Here in Sweden to become a champion flatties have to have passed a (several??) hunting tests (if thats what its called?), in addition to the stuff they need from the conformation shows. I like that they have to do that. Labs and goldens here are so very devided into the "show" and "hunting" strains, which is one of the reasons I got a flattie in the first place- I wanted an active dog, but not one that I would HAVE to hunt with like some of the labs here are. I think its good that they have to prove themselves some beyond how they look and act in a show ring, its not that hard and keeps the dogs more versetial and closer to what they were supposed to be like when they were created.

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[quote name='Black GSD']And in some breeds like the GSD, there are even more "types" than that. There is the American Show lines, German Show lines, German Working lines, Czech and DDR (What used to be East Germany) lines. Then there are those dogs that are a combination of any of the above lines. There are also those that we GSD people call the American BYB lines. Oh and the White lines too :roll: . And not only are the looks as different as night and day between the lines, but so are the tempements and working ability(or LACK of it :evil: .)[/quote]

It's the same with the dobermann, you have the american dobermann, the british, the middle europe, eastern europe and southern europe, the african dogs look nothing like a dobermann and off course in america you have all the different colours, including albino. The AKC and the British kennel klub have different standards to the FCI, but the FCI only uses the standard of the home country of each breed.

nea, its is very much alike with sweden and iceland, we use sweden and norway a lot as a model of how we do things here :wink:

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conformation is the reason that Alaskan huskies exist. The current show Siberian is a heavily built, even fat dog with short legs and poor back lines- most that I've seen are lower in back that in the front- similar to the way GSD's are built. True, Alaskans are essentially mutts, (Although my mutts have pedigrees back to the mid 1950's) but if you are a competative musher, there are very few racing sibe lines to pick from anymore.

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